The NCAA poll system is messed up...

[Whoozyerdaddy]

1. LSU (65) 6-0 1,625
2. California 5-0 1,538
3. Ohio State 6-0 1,511
4. Boston College 6-0 1,346
5. South Florida 5-0 1,339
6. Oklahoma 5-1 1,221
7. South Carolina 5-1 1,183
8. West Virginia 5-1 1,059
9. Oregon 4-1 1,047
10. USC 4-1 1,024
11. Missouri 5-0 966
12. Virginia Tech 5-1 910
13. Florida 4-2 822
14. Arizona State 6-0 752
15. Cincinnati 6-0 705
16. Hawaii 6-0 634
17. Kentucky 5-1 612
18. Illinois 5-1 595
19. Wisconsin 5-1 551
20. Kansas 5-0 336
21. Florida State 4-1 307
22. Auburn 4-2 248
23. Texas 4-2 136
24. Georgia 4-2 131
25. Tennessee 3-2 90


Before anybody jumps down my throat. I'm not a fanboi of any specific college. I didn't go to a college with a football team.

That said... how is USC #10? I know they folded to a horrible football team at home (Stanford). I know they were 41 point favorites... But if USC were playing USF today, what would the line be? Would USF be favored? Hell no. They'd be two TD dogs. BC? Same thing. South Carolina? Oregon? USC would be favored in all of those games.

Hawaii at 16? Ok yeah, they're undefeated, but two of those wins came against D-II teams and the best D-I team they've played so far has been either Idaho or Lousinana Tech. If Florida State (21) or Texas (23) played them, Hawaii would get killed.

The polling system has nothing to do with the actual quality of the teams reperesented in it. Win and no matter how one dimensional you are, you go up in the polls. Lose, and no matter how good you are, you drop in the polls. For that matter, take a bye week and you can go up or down... Usually down. Ask Michigan from last year.

I wouldn't care so much but the rankings weigh heavily in deciding a national champion. So you have a horribly flawed system determining the participants in what is essentially a one game playoff for the national championship.

I guess it's just one more argument for a playoff system.

 

[Queasy]

When you have coaches too busy coaching their own team and playing games to do any in-depth study on the other 118 teams....yet we have a "Coach's Poll".....duh.

 

[Spineshank]

I believe we had this debate years past. Most recent when Boise State beat Oklahoma last year.

 

[Anubis]

they need to get rid of it IMO, take 2 games out of the season and do a playoff system like every other division does

 

[chuckywang]

Polls are made by humans.

 

[Jawo]

There needs to be some ranking system since that determines what games get what television rights and therefore bring in the most money (the root of the ranking/BCS system). Youre forgetting that its the AP Coach's Poll, each coach ranks what he believes are the best teams in the country. An undefeated team (a la Boise State) will be highly ranked soley because of that, even if they play in a weak conference (a la the WAC).
The polls show they are only as good as their last victory. Some teams survive on reputation, (thus keeping out other, possibly stronger schools) but if you lose to an unranked team you will fall. USC has some serious troubles after nearly losing games for the past years, but miraculously staging a comeback. If John David Booty doesn't play and an untested QB comes in, it hurts the teams image.

On the issue of playoffs, IMO there will never be a playoff untill it can be determined that a playoff will bring more money to the "BCS Conferences" than the BCS currently does. The little schools can b!tch, moan, and complain all they want, but not much will hapen. As this season has elegantly shown, any team can beat any other team on a given weekend. The larger conferences do not want to lose the moeny if they are beaten by a smaller school.

 

[LS20]

it doesnt matter. the poll is for #1 and #2.. right now those are the legit #1 and #2. if it was for bcs eligibility... usf *deserves* it more than usc,
and, as far as anyones concerned, usf has played the stronger schedule so far AND survived

 

[SirStev0]

the polling system is silly in many ways...however... Usually it is pretty accurate. This year has been the year of ridiculousness with super underdogs pulling off crazy upsets. It messes the entire chart. Powerhouses are getting taken out at their most unsuspecting moments.

 

[BrokenVisage]

You can't just say "Oh yeah, Team A lost to a crappy Team B, but on any given day Team A could still destroy Team's C-Z." USC lost and they deserve an even LOWER ranking if you ask me. Down with the Prophylactics!

 

[bGIveNs33]

I'd take USF at a neutral site. What have you seen from USC that makes you think they can beat all those teams?? Oh that's right, they are USC. The only thing they have is tradition backing them up. While USF has beaten WVU, and @Auburn(who beat UF).

And there already is a playoff, it's 13 games.... lose a game, you have no room to bitch and moan. Yes there are RARE situations where you leave a team in the dark(i.e. auburn). And if you go out there and schedule some good games, I doubt that will happen. Unless the writers/coaches take the mentality you are taking... it's USC, they'd kill USF.

You are never going to get rid of controversy in college football. Even with a playoff, the 5th/9th/17th team is going to be bitching. And that is why I love college football, it demands perfection. If you lose one game, quit crying.

 

[ElFenix]

the polling system isn't about predicting winners. otherwise, why would a then #19 texas drop after losing by a td while playing an even game against #10 OU on a neutral field? the result on the field confirmed what the previous poll predicted would happen given the relative positions of each team. instead of saying 'hey, we were right, lets keep the teams where they are relative to each other' the difference doubled.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: BrokenVisage
You can't just say "Oh yeah, Team A lost to a crappy Team B, but on any given day Team A could still destroy Team's C-Z." USC lost and they deserve an even LOWER ranking if you ask me. Down with the Prophylactics!

So are you saying that if USC was playing USF the Vegas lines would have the Trojans as the underdog? No way.

Or that if Hawaii was playing Texas that Hawaii would be the favorite? Again, no way.

In both instances the smart money would go to the lower ranked team. Doesn't that give an indication that one should be ranked higher than the other? Not because of who beat who, but simply on the basis that one team is fundamentally better than the other.

As for the AP poll being a coaches poll... yeah, I know. But there are other polls out there that reflect more or less the same rankings that aren't coaches polls. Polls from people who are paid to follow college football.

Just seems to me that the polls aren't based on who is the better team...

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Ok USC should've dropped just because they lost to lowly StanFUrd but if anyone remembers UCLA struggled with them too, and last year's Cal vs Stanfurd game was a struggle for Longshore. So maybe Stanfurd isn't so bad although it did have a terrible season last year and same with this year. Who knows?

Hawaii? 16th is not TOO high. If it hit top 10 I would be more concerned. West Virginia is totally overrated. Remember last year? But think of it. Overall, it's not TOO bad. However you have to admit that in the past 2 weeks, thing have been hell. Oregon is #9. Are they a great team? Yeah, but they were #11 before playing Cal. After losing and having a bye week they moved up? Heh.

 

[sciencewhiz]

Originally posted by: DLeRium
Oregon is #9. Are they a great team? Yeah, but they were #11 before playing Cal. After losing and having a bye week they moved up? Heh.

Oregon was within 1 yard of taking the #2 team in the country to overtime. To me that makes them much better then the #9 team in the country

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: bGIveNs33
I'd take USF at a neutral site. What have you seen from USC that makes you think they can beat all those teams?? Oh that's right, they are USC. The only thing they have is tradition backing them up. While USF has beaten WVU, and @Auburn(who beat UF).

And there already is a playoff, it's 13 games.... lose a game, you have no room to bitch and moan. Yes there are RARE situations where you leave a team in the dark(i.e. auburn). And if you go out there and schedule some good games, I doubt that will happen. Unless the writers/coaches take the mentality you are taking... it's USC, they'd kill USF.

You are never going to get rid of controversy in college football. Even with a playoff, the 5th/9th/17th team is going to be bitching. And that is why I love college football, it demands perfection. If you lose one game, quit crying.

But every games doesn't matter. As you point out... Auburn was perfect it 04, but in the end didn't play a single game that mattered.

 

[sciencewhiz]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
So are you saying that if USC was playing USF the Vegas lines would have the Trojans as the underdog? No way.

USC played decently with 1-5 Idaho at home, but not as good as a top 10 team should
They played very well @ 4-2 Nebraska with a bye.
They played very well with 2-4 Washington State at home
They played very poorly @ 2-3 Washington and barely won
They lost to 2-3 Stanford at home.

In only two of those games did they play well enough to have won against USF. In the other three games, USF would have easily beaten them. To me, that makes USF a better team. There is no doubt in my mind that USC COULD beat USF, but USF just as easily COULD beat USC.


I posted a poll here: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=38&threadid=2105787 maybe there is a ranking system you like better.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

So USF jumped to #2... not because of anything they did... but because everyone ahead of them lost. It was a rank I never believed for a second... Not surprisingly, they lost tonight. To an unranked Rutgers team.

And they will lose again before the season is over and (my guess) could fall out of the top 25.

LSU will creep back up into the chase again... As will the other big-time schools...

It's a different game than it was a decade ago. Guys who would have been happy to play second banana on a big-time school have opted to start for smaller, lesser known schools. Why? Because every frickin' game is on TV now and the NFL scouts don't miss anything. The result? Parity.

Say it ain't so! But yeah. Good... no... GREAT players are all over now and they are helping teams win games they shouldn't win. The net result? You can't rank a team based on their last game anymore. You HAVE to look at the overall body of work. That means that you can't drop a team ten spots because they lose on the road. The gap between a ranked team and an unranked team has closed significantly.

Again... USF is the epitomy of my OP. The NCAA poll system is messed up.

 

[Chryso]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
So USF jumped to #2... not because of anything they did... but because everyone ahead of them lost. It was a rank I never believed for a second... Not surprisingly, they lost tonight. To an unranked Rutgers team.

And they will lose again before the season is over and (my guess) could fall out of the top 25.

LSU will creep back up into the chase again... As will the other big-time schools...

It's a different game than it was a decade ago. Guys who would have been happy to play second banana on a big-time school have opted to start for smaller, lesser known schools. Why? Because every frickin' game is on TV now and the NFL scouts don't miss anything. The result? Parity.

Say it ain't so! But yeah. Good... no... GREAT players are all over now and they are helping teams win games they shouldn't win. The net result? You can't rank a team based on their last game anymore. You HAVE to look at the overall body of work. That means that you can't drop a team ten spots because they lose on the road. The gap between a ranked team and an unranked team has closed significantly.

Again... USF is the epitomy of my OP. The NCAA poll system is messed up.

USF did more to deserve the number 2 ranking than Ohio State did to deserve their number 1 rank.

As for the "helping teams win games they shouldn't win" part, well, that is just dumb.
Why should one team lose if their players are as good as another teams players?
Because it is a tradition that the bigger name school wins?

 

[Jhill]

Look at Florida vs Kentucky. Kentucky is a full 8 spots ahead of them in the BCS. Yet Florida is a 7 point favorite. And they play at Kentucky. Explain that one to me.

Heck Florida would be a favorite against most teams ahead of them in the BCS. Florida would be a heavy favorite (7-10 points) against, BC,UCF,ASU,West Virginia, and Kansas.

BTW, I am not a Florida fan.

 

[PepePeru]

Originally posted by: Jhill
Look at Florida vs Kentucky. Kentucky is a full 8 spots ahead of them in the BCS. Yet Florida is a 7 point favorite. And they play at Kentucky. Explain that one to me.

Heck Florida would be a favorite against most teams ahead of them in the BCS. Florida would be a heavy favorite against, BS,UCF,ASU,West Virginia, and Kansas.

BTW, I am not a Florida fan.

i'd take UF -7 at Kentucky.

my gut-feeling says UK is due for a letdown after last week.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: G Wizard

Originally posted by: Jhill
Look at Florida vs Kentucky. Kentucky is a full 8 spots ahead of them in the BCS. Yet Florida is a 7 point favorite. And they play at Kentucky. Explain that one to me.

Heck Florida would be a favorite against most teams ahead of them in the BCS. Florida would be a heavy favorite against, BS,UCF,ASU,West Virginia, and Kansas.

BTW, I am not a Florida fan.

i'd take UF -7 at Kentucky.

my gut-feeling says UK is due for a letdown after last week.

I hate to say it but I think Florida is going to smoke Kentucky this weekend. I'm defniitely NOT a Florida fan.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Chryso

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
So USF jumped to #2... not because of anything they did... but because everyone ahead of them lost. It was a rank I never believed for a second... Not surprisingly, they lost tonight. To an unranked Rutgers team.

And they will lose again before the season is over and (my guess) could fall out of the top 25.

LSU will creep back up into the chase again... As will the other big-time schools...

It's a different game than it was a decade ago. Guys who would have been happy to play second banana on a big-time school have opted to start for smaller, lesser known schools. Why? Because every frickin' game is on TV now and the NFL scouts don't miss anything. The result? Parity.

Say it ain't so! But yeah. Good... no... GREAT players are all over now and they are helping teams win games they shouldn't win. The net result? You can't rank a team based on their last game anymore. You HAVE to look at the overall body of work. That means that you can't drop a team ten spots because they lose on the road. The gap between a ranked team and an unranked team has closed significantly.

Again... USF is the epitomy of my OP. The NCAA poll system is messed up.

USF did more to deserve the number 2 ranking than Ohio State did to deserve their number 1 rank.

As for the "helping teams win games they shouldn't win" part, well, that is just dumb.
Why should one team lose if their players are as good as another teams players?
Because it is a tradition that the bigger name school wins?

Yes. I was talking about perception.

As for USF deserving the #2 ranking... please. They broke into the rankings by beating then #17 Auburn. (who later fell out of the rankings) A couple wins later, including a big win against WV, and they were in the top ten. From there, their ascention was a matter of attrition as all the teams above them lost. Meanwhile they weren't playing anybody. And then they lost to Rutgers... a game BTW that a LOT of people said they would lose. (The point spread was sliding toward Rutgers all week as the smart money jumped in) #2 team with a line that slides to their unranked opponent? Hmm... Sham ranking?

I don't care that LSU lost a tough road game against a ranked opponent... They are still a better team than Ohio State, USF, BC... and they should still be ranked #1.

And as someone pointed out earlier, Florida is better than half the teams ranked above them. These polls are not a true reflection of the quality of the teams in the NCAA. They're a beauty contest.

 

[Alkaline5]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
As for USF deserving the #2 ranking... please. They broke into the rankings by beating then #17 Auburn. (who later fell out of the rankings) A couple wins later, including a big win against WV, and they were in the top ten. From there, their ascention was a matter of attrition as all the teams above them lost. Meanwhile they weren't playing anybody. And then they lost to Rutgers... a game BTW that a LOT of people said they would lose. (The point spread was sliding toward Rutgers all week as the smart money jumped in) #2 team with a line that slides to their unranked opponent? Hmm... Sham ranking?

Up until last night USF had the most difficult schedule among the remaining undefeateds and the computers loved them for it. You can say what you want about them only moving up because others were losing, but USF had been taking care of business against an overall pretty difficult schedule at that time.