The myth of the kindly General Robert E. Lee

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
I actually studied the American Civil War in university (Canadian history is for the most part pretty unexciting). I focused more on the political side of things - Lincoln/Douglas debates and Lincoln's leadership through the war - but I've always been curious as to the romanticization of the South that's held strong until only recently. Frankly, to me, it sounds like the kind of wistful excuse-making that Germans made after their concession of defeat after WW1. Anyways, read on.

The Atlantic - The Myth of the Kindly General Lee

The myth of Lee goes something like this: He was a brilliant strategist and devoted Christian man who abhorred slavery and labored tirelessly after the war to bring the country back together.

...

Lee was a slaveowner—his own views on slavery were explicated in an 1856 letter that it often misquoted to give the impression that Lee was some kind of an abolitionist. In the letter, he describes slavery as “a moral & political evil,” but goes on to explain that:

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.
The argument here is that slavery is bad for white people, good for black people, and most importantly, it is better than abolitionism; emancipation must wait for divine intervention. That black people might not want to be slaves does not enter into the equation; their opinion on the subject of their own bondage is not even an afterthought to Lee.

Lee’s cruelty as a slavemaster was not confined to physical punishment. In Reading the Man, the historian Elizabeth Brown Pryor’s portrait of Lee through his writings, Pryor writes that “Lee ruptured the Washington and Custis tradition of respecting slave families,” by hiring them off to other plantations, and that “by 1860 he had broken up every family but one on the estate, some of whom had been together since Mount Vernon days.” The separation of slave families was one of the most unfathomably devastating aspects of slavery, and Pryor wrote that Lee’s slaves regarded him as “the worst man I ever see.”

The trauma of rupturing families lasted lifetimes for the enslaved—it was, as my colleague Ta-Nehisi Coates described it, “a kind of murder.” After the war, thousands of the emancipated searched desperately for kin lost to the market for human flesh, fruitlessly for most. In Reconstruction, the historian Eric Foner quotes a Freedmen’s Bureau agent who notes of the emancipated, “in their eyes, the work of emancipation was incomplete until the families which had been dispersed by slavery were reunited.”

Lee’s heavy hand on the Arlington plantation, Pryor writes, nearly led to a slave revolt, in part because the enslaved had been expected to be freed upon their previous master’s death, and Lee had engaged in a dubious legal interpretation of his will in order to keep them as his property, one that lasted until a Virginia court forced him to free them.

When two of his slaves escaped and were recaptured, Lee either beat them himself or ordered the overseer to "lay it on well." Wesley Norris, one of the slaves who was whipped, recalled that “not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done.”

Every state that seceded mentioned slavery as the cause in their declarations of secession. Lee’s beloved Virginia was no different, accusing the federal government of “perverting” its powers “not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.” Lee’s decision to fight for the South can only be described as a choice to fight for the continued existence of human bondage in America—even though for the Union, it was not at first a war for emancipation.

During his invasion of Pennsylvania, Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia enslaved free blacks and brought them back to the South as property. Pryor writes that “evidence links virtually every infantry and cavalry unit in Lee’s army” with the abduction of free black Americans, “with the activity under the supervision of senior officers.”

Soldiers under Lee’s command at the Battle of the Crater in 1864 massacred black Union soldiers who tried to surrender. Then, in a spectacle hatched by Lee’s senior corps commander A.P. Hill, the Confederates paraded the Union survivors through the streets of Petersburg to the slurs and jeers of the southern crowd. Lee never discouraged such behavior. As the historian Richard Slotkin wrote in No Quarter: The Battle of the Crater, “his silence was permissive.”

...

As the historian James McPherson recounts in Battle Cry of Freedom, in October of that same year, Lee proposed an exchange of prisoners with the Union general Ulysses S. Grant. “Grant agreed, on condition that blacks be exchanged ‘the same as white soldiers.’” Lee’s response was that “negroes belonging to our citizens are not considered subjects of exchange and were not included in my proposition.” Because slavery was the cause for which Lee fought, he could hardly be expected to easily concede, even at the cost of the freedom of his own men, that blacks could be treated as soldiers and not things. Grant refused the offer, telling Lee that “Government is bound to secure to all persons received into her armies the rights due to soldiers.” Despite its desperate need for soldiers, the Confederacy did not relent from this position until a few months before Lee’s surrender.

...

Publicly, Lee argued against the enfranchisement of blacks, and raged against Republican efforts to enforce racial equality on the South. Lee told Congress that blacks lacked the intellectual capacity of whites and “could not vote intelligently,” and that granting them suffrage would “excite unfriendly feelings between the two races.” Lee explained that “the negroes have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power.” To the extent that Lee believed in reconciliation, it was between white people, and only on the precondition that black people would be denied political power and therefore the ability to shape their own fate.

Lee is not remembered as an educator, but his life as president of Washington College (later Washington and Lee) is tainted as well. According to Pryor, students at Washington formed their own chapter of the KKK, and were known by the local Freedmen’s Bureau to attempt to abduct and rape black schoolgirls from the nearby black schools.

There were at least two attempted lynchings by Washington students during Lee’s tenure, and Pryor writes that “the number of accusations against Washington College boys indicates that he either punished the racial harassment more laxly than other misdemeanors, or turned a blind eye to it,” adding that he “did not exercise the near imperial control he had at the school, as he did for more trivial matters, such as when the boys threatened to take unofficial Christmas holidays.” In short, Lee was as indifferent to crimes of violence toward blacks carried out by his students as he was when they were carried out by his soldiers.​
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
Thanks for the history lesson. The South was hardly noble before, during, and after the Civil War. Hell The Lost Cause of The South is still going on.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
Wow, I actually didn't know a lot of that. The wikipedia article on Lee is definitely lacking much of that information.


Most of what I was taught in school was that Lee was some brilliant genius vs Grant the drunk and Sherman the psycho. Lee was a gentlemen who outwitted the northern neanderthals time and time again, and merely lost because the south had such a lack of men and materiel. They left out the part about owning and abusing slaves completely because he was southern and that's just whats southern people did back then and you can't hate.

It appears that was not completely true
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
Wow, I actually didn't know a lot of that. The wikipedia article on Lee is definitely lacking much of that information.


Most of what I was taught in school was that Lee was some brilliant genius vs Grant the drunk and Sherman the psycho. Lee was a gentlemen who outwitted the northern neanderthals time and time again, and merely lost because the south had such a lack of men and materiel. They left out the part about owning and abusing slaves completely because he was southern and that's just whats southern people did back then and you can't hate.

It appears that was not completely true
Yeah the South pretty much whitewashes their history. There are still large numbers of Southerns who see nonwhite racial groups as less then human.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,027
2,595
136
Lee was a POS.
Lots of historical figures are though. Look a little into George Washington's slave owning past or Christopher Columbus' savagery to indigenous people in the Caribbean and there are stories that will make tested men cringe.

At the end of the day you have to judge people in part according to the time they grow up in. Everyday we walk past homeless people and ignore their suffering. Maybe in 500 years when mankind achieves utopia people will look back at us and wonder wtf kind of cold hearted bastards we were to act in such a way.

I dunno... ethics are complicated I guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Atreus21

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Wow, I actually didn't know a lot of that. The wikipedia article on Lee is definitely lacking much of that information.


Most of what I was taught in school was that Lee was some brilliant genius vs Grant the drunk and Sherman the psycho. Lee was a gentlemen who outwitted the northern neanderthals time and time again, and merely lost because the south had such a lack of men and materiel. They left out the part about owning and abusing slaves completely because he was southern and that's just whats southern people did back then and you can't hate.

It appears that was not completely true
Grant was a functional drunk, but Sherman being a psycho is straight-up Southern revisionism.

Sherman and Grant deduced quite correctly that fighting the civil war on the South's terms - that is, shooting at each other from daylight to darkness, then mutually retiring from the field until the next morning - was neutering their greatest advantage: Troop numbers. They were the first Union generals to switch to a strategy of grinding their numerically disadvantaged opponent down in terms of men and resources. Sherman in particular, had in Southern eyes, the gall to burn down Southern plantations and other resource areas as he pushed right through Confederate territory.

For denying them the ability to slyly resupply their cause, he's earned undying enmity. A critical eye would simply see him as prudent.
 
Last edited:

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,817
9,027
136
Protestors just tore down a Confederate statue in my city tonight. I'm somewhat conflicted about this one--the statue wasn't of any known racist individual...It was just an unnamed Confederate soldier. You can say that the Generals of the Confederacy were traitors, but general infantry?

On the other hand, our gerrymandered state passed a law that prevented any municipality from removing historical statues. So even if my city (very liberal, large African American population) had voted to remove the statue, it would be prevented from doing so. This meant that there was no other way to democratically remove the statue. I can't condone the activists actions and they will suffer the consequences, but what other choice did they have?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,039
48,032
136
Lee was a POS.
Lots of historical figures are though. Look a little into George Washington's slave owning past or Christopher Columbus' savagery to indigenous people in the Caribbean and there are stories that will make tested men cringe.

At the end of the day you have to judge people in part according to the time they grow up in. Everyday we walk past homeless people and ignore their suffering. Maybe in 500 years when mankind achieves utopia people will look back at us and wonder wtf kind of cold hearted bastards we were to act in such a way.

I dunno... ethics are complicated I guess.

Yeah but Washington really did live in a time where slavery was an accepted part of life. Doesn't make it okay, but as you say you have to color your judgment with the times he lived in.

Lee was presented with an opportunity to either remain loyal to his sworn oath to the United States or break that oath in order to take up arms against it to fight for the cause of a country founded on the idea that black people were property. In the times he lived in he had a choice, and he chose to fight for slavery. Maybe he was a good general but I think even if you judge him by the standards of his time he was a piece of shit.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
I think if every american was forced to reckon with the true magnitude of human suffering that the institution of slavery imposed upon american society, they would understand that it was evil and that the people who were involved in the slave trade were evil people. The argument that they must be judged according to people "of that era" is absurd when you consider that in fact, people of that era abhorred slavery and many were willing to fight and die long before the civil war in order to end the institution. They were judged as morally corrupt to the core by their peers in that era and we should judge them the same now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,039
48,032
136
Protestors just tore down a Confederate statue in my city tonight. I'm somewhat conflicted about this one--the statue wasn't of any known racist individual...It was just an unnamed Confederate soldier. You can say that the Generals of the Confederacy were traitors, but general infantry?

On the other hand, our gerrymandered state passed a law that prevented any municipality from removing historical statues. So even if my city (very liberal, large African American population) had voted to remove the statue, it would be prevented from doing so. This meant that there was no other way to democratically remove the statue. I can't condone the activists actions and they will suffer the consequences, but what other choice did they have?

I agree that the average infantryman had less agency than the officers but they knew what they were doing and they are still traitors. In fact, early on they were overflowing with volunteers.

I agree that there has to be some forebearance to remember the dead from the war but you can hardly expect a majority African American city to spend public money to upkeep a statue dedicated to people who fought and died to ensure they were considered human property. That seems a bit much.

You want to have a war memorial? Fine by me. Make it to the dead of the civil war though, get rid of the confederacy honoring.
 
  • Like
Reactions: whm1974

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,027
2,595
136
On the other hand, our gerrymandered state passed a law that prevented any municipality from removing historical statues. So even if my city (very liberal, large African American population) had voted to remove the statue, it would be prevented from doing so.
Exactly the way democracy is supposed to function right?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,592
29,221
146
This was not the gentlemanly Lee that I learned about in North Carolina public education! :colbert:

yeah, we pretty much got the "The Civil War was about state's rights! and many, many complicated and diverse issues well beyond slavery" to the point that you couldn't write an acceptable essay without several pages of distracting and convoluted digressions into issues that never mentioned slavery...and this from the 7th grade through to AP US history in the 11th grade.

I chose my final project that year on US Grant. She never liked my work and I think I barely scraped by with a C in her stupid class. Got a 4 on the AP exam, though. One of like 5 people in the entire class that year. God that teacher was a dumb bitch. :D
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,543
9,925
136
All of the generals and leaders should've been hung for treason and the way they treated POWs.

I grew up in Oklahoma and got a lot of the "States rights" spin on the civil war in school, but I never understood just how deeply upset the south still is about losing until I started working with a few people from the deep south. Holy crap. I don't think they are racist at all, but man they are still bitter about the north's "treatment" of them. Also found out that Jefferson Davis's Birthday is still a holiday in Alabama.

I used to have mixed feeling about the statues coming down until I think it was @fskimospy posted the real history of these statues. After researching it more, it is easy to see these were not war memorials, or even contemporary propaganda statues. But these statues were built for the specific purpose of intimidating blacks long after the war ended. Removing them is not the same as ISIS blowing up ancient temples, they are relatively recent and consistent symbol of hate with very little historical value except for being old* and telling the story of Jim Crow and racism in the South.

*By American standards.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
I think if every american was forced to reckon with the true magnitude of human suffering that the institution of slavery imposed upon american society, they would understand that it was evil and that the people who were involved in the slave trade were evil people. The argument that they must be judged according to people "of that era" is absurd when you consider that in fact, people of that era abhorred slavery and many were willing to fight and die long before the civil war in order to end the institution. They were judged as morally corrupt to the core by their peers in that era and we should judge them the same now.

They knew it was unethical back in the day, too. It was in just in their self-interest with little in the way of repercussion. Not like jesus was going to do anything about it. I mean, frankly owning slaves is arguably pretty sweet if someone has little moral compass and can totally get away with it.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Protestors just tore down a Confederate statue in my city tonight. I'm somewhat conflicted about this one--the statue wasn't of any known racist individual...It was just an unnamed Confederate soldier. You can say that the Generals of the Confederacy were traitors, but general infantry?

On the other hand, our gerrymandered state passed a law that prevented any municipality from removing historical statues. So even if my city (very liberal, large African American population) had voted to remove the statue, it would be prevented from doing so. This meant that there was no other way to democratically remove the statue. I can't condone the activists actions and they will suffer the consequences, but what other choice did they have?

The municipality didn't remove the statue. The people did. So all is good.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
I'm just waiting for the degens to show up with the story making the rounds on degen media that since some of the statues were manufactured in the north BothSides were really to blame. Same as with slavery, since some africans participated in the slave trade.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,319
4,434
136
All of the generals and leaders should've been hung for treason and the way they treated POWs.


Both sides had horrible POW Camps. Not justifying any of them, all were horrible places.

Granted Andersonville was most notorious. The northern side had some real losers also. Nobody deserved the treatment received in either. To only point out one side leaving out the other is disingenuous at best.

Wiki with good references and supporting citations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_prison_camps

Over 30,000 Union and nearly 26,000 Confederate prisoners died in captivity. Just over 12% of the captives in Northern prisons died, compared to 15.5% for Southern prisons.

The overall mortality rates in prisons on both sides were similar, and quite high. Many Southern prisons were located in regions with high disease rates, and were routinely short of medicine, doctors, food and ice. Northerners often believed their men were being deliberately weakened and killed in Confederate prisons, and demanded that conditions in Northern prisons be equally harsh, even though shortages were not a problem in the North.[10]

About 56,000 soldiers died in prisons during the war, accounting for almost 10% of all Civil War fatalities.[11] During a period of 14 months in Camp Sumter, located near Andersonville, Georgia, 13,000 (28%) of the 45,000 Union soldiers confined there died.[12] At Camp Douglas in Chicago, Illinois, 10% of its Confederate prisoners died during one cold winter month; and Elmira Prison in New York state, with a death rate of 25%, very nearly equaled that of Andersonville.[13]
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,049
7,976
136
What I find ridiculous is the regularly-made claim that removing statues is 'revisionism' or 'denying history'.

Statues go up because one particular group is the most powerful at the time and gets to put them up. When things change, they come down again. There is no rule that says because one group is winning at a particular time then their victories have to be preserved forever, even when the balance-of-power changes. Particularly when that group were and are an oppressive one. It's a continuation of history not a rewriting of it. History is still going on. and if the past is another country we are all migrants from it.

Did all these people complain when statues of Lenin and Stalin came down across the former communist world? Are they demanding the restoration of Saddam's statues in Baghdad?

Also, the thing about the 'standards of the time' argument, is that it should surely always been remembered that times rarely have one single 'standard' - they have competing, warring, standards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thraashman

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
What I find ridiculous is the regularly-made claim that removing statues is 'revisionism' or 'denying history'.

Statues go up because one particular group is the most powerful at the time and gets to put them up. When things change, they come down again. There is no rule that says because one group is winning at a particular time then their victories have to be preserved forever, even when the balance-of-power changes. Particularly when that group were and are an oppressive one. It's a continuation of history not a rewriting of it. History is still going on. and if the past is another country we are all migrants from it.

Did all these people complain when statues of Lenin and Stalin came down across the former communist world? Are they demanding the restoration of Saddam's statues in Baghdad?

Also, the thing about the 'standards of the time' argument, is that it should surely always been remembered that times rarely have one single 'standard' - they have competing, warring, standards.

Keep in mind many of the confederate statue supporters are northern conservatives. Worth pondering what that implies.
 
Last edited:

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Yeah but Washington really did live in a time where slavery was an accepted part of life. Doesn't make it okay, but as you say you have to color your judgment with the times he lived in.

Lee was presented with an opportunity to either remain loyal to his sworn oath to the United States or break that oath in order to take up arms against it to fight for the cause of a country founded on the idea that black people were property. In the times he lived in he had a choice, and he chose to fight for slavery. Maybe he was a good general but I think even if you judge him by the standards of his time he was a piece of shit.
I have no problem ripping down every Confederate statue and monument, especially those specifically erected in response to the civil rights movement.

Slavery is the original sin of our nation. Many of the officers of the Civil War went to West Point together and in their early careers fought Manifest Destiny campaigns against Mexico and Native Americans. In the context of our times it is easier to make moral judgments. Custer fought for the Union but then went on to slaughter Native Americans. Many tribes feel towards some Union officers as others might feel about Confederate ones.

The winners get to write the history books, so why is Lee held in such high regard despite being a traitor?

Lee played a critical role in the Mexican War, often recognized as America's most Napoleonic general. He was also West Point's superintendent at one point, where even as a traitor, he is shown some respect through paintings and such. The Army War College and the Corps of Engineers similarly held him in high regard. He was also a central figure of reconciliation during Reconstruction.

So, its complicated. Yes he was a traitor. Yes he chose to defend the institution of slavery. But early in his career he fought campaigns driven by the Christian soldier conviction of white superiority and Manifest Destiny, and the flag he fought under was American.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,049
7,976
136
Keep in mind many of the confederate statue supporters are northern conservatives. Worth pondering what that implies.

Sure, but 'conservatives' are one of the 'groups' I had in mind. Not 'Southerners' and 'Northerners' as such. I mean, it's clear the North fought for mixed-motives.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,049
7,976
136
I have no problem ripping down every Confederate statue and monument, especially those specifically erected in response to the civil rights movement.

Slavery is the original sin of our nation. Many of the officers of the Civil War went to West Point together and in their early careers fought Manifest Destiny campaigns against Mexico and Native Americans. In the context of our times it is easier to make moral judgments. Custer fought for the Union but then went on to slaughter Native Americans. Many tribes feel towards some Union officers as others might feel about Confederate ones.

The winners get to write the history books, so why is Lee held in such high regard despite being a traitor?

Lee played a critical role in the Mexican War, often recognized as America's most Napoleonic general. He was also West Point's superintendent at one point, where even as a traitor, he is shown some respect through paintings and such. The Army War College and the Corps of Engineers similarly held him in high regard. He was also a central figure of reconciliation during Reconstruction.

So, its complicated. Yes he was a traitor. Yes he chose to defend the institution of slavery. But early in his career he fought campaigns driven by the Christian soldier conviction of white superiority and Manifest Destiny, and the flag he fought under was American.

But even the 'case for the defence' doesn't exactly make him a good guy!

I'm not keen on statues of identifiable individuals in general, really. Everybody is flawed and every such monument is going to have at best mixed messages (though in this case the message seems uniformly bad). Far too many dead white imperialist butchers are so commemorated in Britain as well (e.g. Cecil Rhodes).