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the mindset of a union worker. "raise tolls/fares on commuters so I can have a job."

not much different than that of those who belong in a police, fire, teacher's union.
money off the backs of tax payers by raising taxes so they can enjoy yearly pay raises despite the current economic conditions.


Arguments for and against the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey’s planned increases in fares and Hudson River crossings came down to those who didn’t have jobs and need them, and those who had jobs but are just scraping by.

The meeting room in the Port Authority’s Jersey City Technical Center was filled to standing room Tuesday morning for one of nine hearings on the proposed hikes, with unemployed laborers in orange shirts that read “Port Authority = Jobs!” — the most visible sight upon entering.

While opponents had sympathy for the unemployed workers, they had little to none for the agency proposing the increases and called for an audit of the Port Authority’s books and another, better located, well-publicized round of hearings.

The speakers ranged from an almost tearful unemployed construction worker on the verge of eviction to a Spanish-speaking PATH rider who said poor people like her can’t afford another dollar.

But unlike many of these hearings that pit labor against opponents of a plan, there was something different in this room — a little mutual respect and empathy for the other person’s plight.

“I need work so bad. I’m hurting so bad I need this to be passed. I am on the mercy of this program,” said Randy Bostick of Irvington, an unemployed union laborer who said he’s exhausted employment and welfare benefits, has borrowed money from family members and owes $2,100 to his landlord.

Bostick fought back tears as he told the crowd that he’s been a union member since 1982 and said he doesn’t even have the money to put his possessions in storage and move in with family out of state.

The Port Authority has said the proposed two-phase toll and fare increase would fund a $33 billion, 10-year capital plan would would generate 167,000 jobs.

On the other side was Elana La Rohena of Jersey City, who said the increases will affect thousands of the working poor and will make it harder for her to take the PATH train to seek work.

She also had a warning: “Tell Gov. (Chris) Christie this fare hike affects poor people and will cause us to live in misery, and we’ll get him in the next election,” she said through a translator.

The proposal calls for bridge and tunnel tolls to be raised by $4 in September and another $2 in 2014, and for PATH fares to increase $1 to $2.75 a trip. Cash customers who don’t have an E-ZPass tag would see higher tolls.

The Port Authority board of commissioners is scheduled to vote Friday, and the governors of New York and New Jersey have to sign off on the plan.

An online hearing Tuesday afternoon had 282 people participate, said Port Authority spokesman Ron Marsico. Others submitted comments to the Port Authority website.

Many of those who spoke against the plan in Jersey City said they sympathized with the unemployed union members and agreed that the infrastructure repair projects the increases would fund are needed, but that there had to be a better way to fund them.

“I support the workers. I’ve been unemployed,” said Dan Pelic of Jersey City, who rode a bicycle to the hearing. “I think the people who need work and the Port Authority need to meet in the middle. This is being rushed through.”

Union members said they sympathized with commuters but argued the infrastructure improvements are needed to keep the region competitive.

Frank Castillo of Long Branch, a member of New Jersey Laborers’ Union Local 325, felt it was important enough to drive to Jersey City to speak in favor of the infrastructure plan.

“The plan is worth supporting, It will address every mode of transportation and will address the right priorities,” Castillo said. “I come to New York every day, and I’m not looking forward to paying the toll increases, but I support the plan.”

Several union members said they’d pay the increases, too, but said the projects to be funded, such as raising the Bayonne Bridge to permit larger container ships to access the port, would have a greater positive effect on the region.

“The tolls will be burden on everybody, but people who are not working wish they could go back to work,” said Vincent Stisto, a member of the laborers union. “I’m sure the people who are working have a relative who’s not working and they can understand where we’re coming from. It’s important we pass this.”

But not all the speakers were as kind to the Port Authority, and several questioned why toll and fare-payers have to finance the multibillion-dollar rebuilding of the World Trade Center site.

“I’ve been unemployed for four years, and work temporary jobs. Raising the fare will impact me. A lot of people are just getting by,” said Christine Bamberger of Jersey City, who said the Port Authority should reconsider the World Trade Center redevelopment. “Let the banks pay for that project instead of us. Shame on you. Do not raise the tolls.”

Eric Anders Nilsson of the Jersey City Peace Movement criticized the locations and times of the hearings, which were held at 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. Tuesday at various transportation facilities, and online at 2 p.m.

“There should be several days of hearings so working people can come out,” he said. “I call for an audit of the Port Authority’s books. If this (toll increase) goes through, I call for Gov. Christie to veto it.”

Representatives of U.S. Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., and Jersey City officials called for a probe to find out why the Port Authority is in the fiscal position where it must seek the increases.

“We’re not against jobs, we support labor. The concern is the long-range cost of this on everybody — is it helping or hurting?” said Kabili Tayaki, deputy mayor of Jersey City, who was among those who called for an audit of the Port Authority and several additional, better publicized and easier-to-reach hearings.

Three state legislators, Sen. Jennifer Beck and Assembly members Declan O’Scanlon and Caroline Casgrande, all R-Monmouth, were also critical of the hearing schedule they said was inconvenient for commuters.

“This will be one more barrier to economic activity in the tri-state area, and a tax increase on people who already (are) having a hard time making ends meet,” O’Scanlon said in a prepared release by the three lawmakers issued later Tuesday.

Comments submitted online from the New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers and the state chapter of the Sierra Club also rapped the Port Authority for the inconvenient hearing times and locations for working commuters. Passenger association officials said that because 80 percent of PATH riders are from New Jersey, they will be unfairly subsidizing the increased cost to rebuild the World Trade Center.

A compromise position suggested by Vincent Pellecchia, general counsel for the Tri-State Transportation Campaign, modifies the amounts of the toll and fare hikes to keep the projects moving, and to give the traveling public relief by offering off-peak discounts and congestion pricing.
 
based on this statement
The Port Authority has said the proposed two-phase toll and fare increase would fund a $33 billion, 10-year capital plan would would generate 167,000 jobs.

20K a year jobs. (33b/10) /167K jobs
Union will not accept that salary number.
Figure a minimum of 40K per year. plus 25% overhead So that would indicate that the taxpayer and/or customer will pick up the other 30K of the amount.
If it is a construction job than the cost goes to 60K per year plus 25% overhead.
Now the pickup is $50K.

And how in the heck do they need that many slots to be added.

At (7*24 hr)/40 = 5 workers to cover a position full time 7 days a week.

So that amounts to 30K physical positions that need to be filled. Seems like a make work program on the back of the commuter/taxpayer. :thumbsdown:

If they cut the jobs projection down to meet realistic numbers in terms of jobs for salary you have 10K jobs being created. for what- what is the benefit to the public?
 
not much different than that of those who belong in a police, fire, teacher's union.
money off the backs of tax payers by raising taxes so they can enjoy yearly pay raises despite the current economic conditions.

There's lots of people still getting raises.
There is another thread here about an electrician who's business has doubled recently.
 
From America's great depression by Murray Rothbard:

Workers, for example, become persuaded of the great importance of preserving the mystique of the union: of union solidarity in “not crossing a picket line,” or not undercutting union wage rates. Unions almost always reinforce this mystique with violence, but there is no gainsaying the breadth of its influence. To the extent that workers, both in and out of the union, feel bound by this mystique, to that extent will they refuse to bid wages downward even when they are unemployed. If they do that, then we must conclude that they are unemployed voluntarily, and that the way to end their unemployment is to convince them that the mystique of the union is morally absurd.9 However, while these workers are unemployed voluntarily, as a consequence of their devotion to the union, it is highly likely that the workers do not fully realize the consequences of their ideas and actions. The mass of men are generally ignorant of economic truths. It is highly possible that once they discovered that their unemployment was the direct result of their devotion to union solidarity, much of this devotion would quickly wither away
 
Probably getting a very dedicated and conscientious worker, because he knows if he does poor quality work, he'll stop getting jobs.

Or one who couldn't cut it on a Union Job because he doesn't have the skillset, especially on commercial sites. Why would a good electrician take a job with shitty bennies and lower payscale. It's not as if they are some run of the mill Cashier or Tech Monkey
 
for what- what is the enefit to the public?

The big ticket items are:

Completion of the WTC site and PATH station (both far over budget)

New signal systems, rail cars, and upgrades to the PATH system. Some parts of which are many decades old.

Bayonne bridge replacement. Required for larger cargo vessels to access the Port Newark-Elizabeth Marine Terminal.

Replacement of the Lincoln Tunnel approaches on the New Jersey side which are past their useful life and becoming dangerous.

Cable replacement and other major work on the George Washington Bridge.

Significant security upgrades across all Port Authority assets, including major retrofits to the PATH tubes that serve lower midtown and downtown.

Various projects at Newark and JFK airports.
 
Or one who couldn't cut it on a Union Job because he doesn't have the skillset, especially on commercial sites. Why would a good electrician take a job with shitty bennies and lower payscale. It's not as if they are some run of the mill Cashier or Tech Monkey
It may not be the quality of the worker, but more the mandated additional overhead that the union shop requires and the costs associated with such.
 
The big ticket items are:

Completion of the WTC site and PATH station (both far over budget)

New signal systems, rail cars, and upgrades to the PATH system. Some parts of which are many decades old.

Bayonne bridge replacement. Required for larger cargo vessels to access the Port Newark-Elizabeth Marine Terminal.

Replacement of the Lincoln Tunnel approaches on the New Jersey side which are past their useful life and becoming dangerous.

Cable replacement and other major work on the George Washington Bridge.

Significant security upgrades across all Port Authority assets, including major retrofits to the PATH tubes that serve lower midtown and downtown.

Various projects at Newark and JFK airports.

That does not compute with the amount of $$ they are stating and the jobs being created.

Some one in the Port Authority is BSing the numbers, either the costs or the # jobs.

Enough of a reason to force an audit.
 
Or one who couldn't cut it on a Union Job because he doesn't have the skillset, especially on commercial sites. Why would a good electrician take a job with shitty bennies and lower payscale. It's not as if they are some run of the mill Cashier or Tech Monkey
I was pretty anti-union before I entered construction engineering, but my experience has been that union shops consistently give me a better product. If I had my way I'd make all my jobs union-only, but I can't - it's not my money. Unfortunately a lot of our larger projects have gone nonunion because the union refuses to cut wages to compete with nonunion shops who can pay less. But there's an up side to that too; in a down economy it's easy for employers to pay project workers increasingly lower wages, because there are so many qualified people willing to work for less. Unions' resistance to that helps preserve the wage base. Very few things in life are either completely negative or completely positive.
 
That does not compute with the amount of $$ they are stating and the jobs being created.

Some one in the Port Authority is BSing the numbers, either the costs or the # jobs.

Enough of a reason to force an audit.

There are a ton of smaller projects in the budget I saw that might only run 1-2M per. Stuff like electrical repair, painting, concrete repair, light structural work, equipment refurbishment, repaving, etc

I'm sure they inflated the number of jobs being created to make it look better to the public. That's sexier to sell than repairing a ventilation shaft that nobody has seen in 100 years or painting the underside of a bridge, which kind of projects make up a lot of the total.
 
Or one who couldn't cut it on a Union Job because he doesn't have the skillset, especially on commercial sites. Why would a good electrician take a job with shitty bennies and lower payscale. It's not as if they are some run of the mill Cashier or Tech Monkey

That is another possibility.
 
Unions are for the most part a dinosaur that need to go away

If that were the case, all unions would be extinct, wouldn't they?

As it's been said before, the ONLY reason unions exist is because there is a need for them.

Pick one union that is on the wrong side of an issue as you see it and there are nine more that work quite well with the companies whose employees are unionized, even now with the economic mess that the repubs created under Bush/Cheney.
 
ummm shouldn't he be selling those possessions first?

That's the main issue we have, no one really wants to sacrifice shit anymore. When I became broke after my divorce I sold off all my fucking toys. My Rotel/Definitive home theatre, my new car, my weights, my bike, pretty much all the shit I didn't need to wear to be presentable and live. I had no TV, no stereo, I had to use internet from someone else, I kept the oldest of my PC that could still at least run word perfect and lotus 1-2-3 at the time. Crappy monitor.

I rebuilt myself. Then I bought back the stuff I lost. Some of it I couldn't get anymore and that sucked.
 
there WAS a need for unions - there is not a need for them now.

That's how you get people working on assembly lines making $50 an hour, and companies moving american jobs to other countries.
 
If that were the case, all unions would be extinct, wouldn't they?

As it's been said before, the ONLY reason unions exist is because there is a need for them.

Pick one union that is on the wrong side of an issue as you see it and there are nine more that work quite well with the companies whose employees are unionized, even now with the economic mess that the repubs created under Bush/Cheney.

The power base that union leaders have created for themselves won't allow them to go away...until they disappear, unions aren't going anywhere...you will have to pry all the bennies/perks that union leaders get from their cold dead hands...
 
If that were the case, all unions would be extinct, wouldn't they?

As it's been said before, the ONLY reason unions exist is because there is a need for them.

Pick one union that is on the wrong side of an issue as you see it and there are nine more that work quite well with the companies whose employees are unionized, even now with the economic mess that the repubs created under Bush/Cheney.
Rewind to the 1500s and repeat after me:

The only reason kings exist is because there is a need for them.
 
People who complain about union labor have no clue about it except the stereotypes they see. There is nobody who would choose non-union over union when doing construction. Never. Not in a million years. I'm a civil engineer and I work with these people everyday. They are truly skilled.
 
People who complain about union labor have no clue about it except the stereotypes they see. There is nobody who would choose non-union over union when doing construction. Never. Not in a million years. I'm a civil engineer and I work with these people everyday. They are truly skilled.

lols that's bullshit, but then again you didn't define what kind of construction. I can tell you right now though I've seen plenty of non-union labor building refineries/gas plants. Even worked along side them and while they're usually a little lower on the totem pole there are plenty of skilled non-union workers out there. Hell one of the best welders I ever met was some old Mexican dude who couldn't speak English and definitely wasn't a union worker.

Also, Government workers are wealth leeches. If private citizens cannot sustain their job, then their job is not required by society.
 
People who complain about union labor have no clue about it except the stereotypes they see. There is nobody who would choose non-union over union when doing construction. Never. Not in a million years. I'm a civil engineer and I work with these people everyday. They are truly skilled.

Hummmm, I did spend a few years with UAW folks at a manufacturing site so I do know what I am talking about. Don't let me start with their work ethic, or lack of it.

While I have no idea about construction but UAW members are far from truly skilled, with a few exceptions such as mill wright, body works, electricians. If you have a brain and know how to follow steps, you can do about 90% of the jobs at any manufacturing plants.
 
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The big ticket items are:

Completion of the WTC site and PATH station (both far over budget)

New signal systems, rail cars, and upgrades to the PATH system. Some parts of which are many decades old.

Bayonne bridge replacement. Required for larger cargo vessels to access the Port Newark-Elizabeth Marine Terminal.

Replacement of the Lincoln Tunnel approaches on the New Jersey side which are past their useful life and becoming dangerous.

Cable replacement and other major work on the George Washington Bridge.

Significant security upgrades across all Port Authority assets, including major retrofits to the PATH tubes that serve lower midtown and downtown.

Various projects at Newark and JFK airports.

Why should bridge tolls be used to pay for the WTC and the PATH? That's were the majority of the money is going.
 
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