The Matrix: Free will?

[Homerboy]

Discussion at work, and nobody recalls any specifics from the movie as we haven't seen it in a long time...

When you were IN the Matrix (oblivious to the fact that you were in the Matrix and not "free"), did you have free will? Or did the computer predefine who you would be and what you'd become?

 

[radhak]

Not spelled out in the movie, so open to interpretation. But why would the computer care what anybody chose to 'become', because it's only imaginary? Somebody could choose to become the POTUSA or a drug-dealer; would not matter to it an iota.

That said, the basic premise of the movie was bs: that machines need humans for their body heat and energy. Any computer that highly evolved and sentient should be able to find far more efficient ways of generating heat and energy than human bodies. Once you gloss over that in the quest for a 'great movie experience', other plot gaps are just fluff.

 

[Newell Steamer]

You have free will in the Matrix - which is why Morpheus & crew are even able to offer the red pill / blue pill, as well as you being able to make that choice.

The Matrix can not program your brain. But, it certainly contains and guides you to fool you into thinking you are not free. Or, you are free and there is nothing else out there.

The entire point of the movie is that under any and all circumstances, you have free will. The human spirit will find some way, in some manner, to obtain what it is looking for. And, the human spirit's "weapon" or "tool" to accomplish that is free will.

 

[DesiPower]

Well, iirc the world inside the matrix is the world we live in today, and in this world, today right now, "free will" as we know it, exists. So I am guessing that in the movie too there was free will. Open and shut case if you ask me.

 

[Homerboy]

Well, iirc the world inside the matrix is the world we live in today, and in this world, today right now, "free will" as we know it, exists. So I am guessing that in the movie too there was free will. Open and shut case if you ask me.

How do you know we have "free will"? That "free will" could just be perceived and in reality, the computer already has things planned out for us.

 

[inachu]

Just reading what the op put forth and not reading the other replies I would say this.

Depending on your upbringing it will depend on how enlightened you really are and how or if you become enlightened. Knowledge transference can happen at any given moment about ones life. Kinda like how one is young and does not give a care about death and life but only wants to have fun. When that daily fun grows old he then begins to learn and grow.

By the time he is 30-40 he will want to work within the realm of the world he was taught. Then by 50 He will question the standards at which he lives and will reflect on his choices in life. By 60 He would have questioned not his choices but himself and that is when self illumination begins.

Self Illumination can happen earlier in life lets say if a young man at age 20 is in a life threatening position he quickly asks himself : "Why me?" Then will quickly either correct his pathways or will be utterly destroyed either in mind or body or both be it a car accident or murder.

Even in this current life we choose to live in today science is proving that even this life might be a hologram itself.

If this is so do we have a right or do we have THE right to change course as to reprogram what we are living in? Is life a test?

It will be interesting to see what they prove or if they prove correct that we are indeed hologram in a test program created by GOD or by a GOD.

For all we know we could be the equivalent of a virus in a petri dish.

 

[DesiPower]

How do you know we have "free will"? That "free will" could just be perceived and in reality, the computer already has things planned out for us.

Well, exactly, that's why I said "free will as we know it". How can we define or miss something that we do not know?

 

[Newell Steamer]

How do you know we have "free will"? That "free will" could just be perceived and in reality, the computer already has things planned out for us.

The movie (or the series) showed that as well - the human spirit. Where there is a will, there is a way. The human spirit sought out and located the real path of free will.

So basically, you know, because you know. Sort of like a sixth sense.

 

[Smoblikat]

Not spelled out in the movie, so open to interpretation. But why would the computer care what anybody chose to 'become', because it's only imaginary? Somebody could choose to become the POTUSA or a drug-dealer; would not matter to it an iota.

That said, the basic premise of the movie was bs: that machines need humans for their body heat and energy. Any computer that highly evolved and sentient should be able to find far more efficient ways of generating heat and energy than human bodies. Once you gloss over that in the quest for a 'great movie experience', other plot gaps are just fluff.

My thought was that they didnt want the most effecient design, they specifically wanted us. We entrapped machines and used them to d our bidding for a very long time, just shoving them away until its time for them to work for us again. Maybe the robots are using our bodies as an energy source out of "spite" (if robots can feel that).

 

[BlitzPuppet]

From what I remember yes, there was freewill. That's what made it feel real to everyone, there were consequences and unhappiness due to the choices each person made.

It was talked about how a previous iteration of the Matrix was a pure Utopia, where everything was perfect and no one would be sad...but apparently everyone's subconscious rejected it as not real and many "crops" were lost.

I really need to watch this movie again.

 

[zinfamous]

It would be hard to argue that free will exists within the Matrix because your brain is plugged into a machine that creates the reality that you experience.

In theory, that reality could be altered at any point--so any notion of choice being a response to the false reality that is presented, is no true choice.

The Matrix is based on a decades-old philosophical conundrum (brains in a vat); the central tenet being that we can not now effectively argue that the reality that we know is not generated by some master race that has us plugged up to machines. Free Choice is a difficult subject in this problem, because there isn't a clear way to define the full capabilities of the reality-generating machine. Meaning: if the aliens have the technology and the requirement to create our reality, why couldn't they control choice, and why wouldn't they?

 

[Homerboy]

It would be hard to argue that free will exists within the Matrix because your brain is plugged into a machine that creates the reality that you experience.

In theory, that reality could be altered at any point--so any notion of choice being a response to the false reality that is presented, is no true choice.

The Matrix is based on a decades-old philosophical conundrum (brains in a vat); the central tenet being that we can not now effectively argue that the reality that we know is not generated by some master race that has us plugged up to machines. Free Choice is a difficult subject in this problem, because there isn't a clear way to define the full capabilities of the reality-generating machine. Meaning: if the aliens have the technology and the requirement to create our reality, why couldn't they control choice, and why wouldn't they?

That's sort of what I get hung up on.
So I CHOOSE from "free will" to rob a store in the matrix. But the computer (for whatever reason) says "nah, I don't want that to happen", it then just erases that event from everyone's collective memory and resets it. That "free will" event occurred, but is now gone from the collective memory and thus never really happened.

 

[moonbogg]

The matrix was simply used to keep people's minds occupied to prevent them from waking up. They had free will in the matrix in the same way people had it outside the matrix. There's things you can control, and things you can't. You make decisions within the limits that you have to deal with.
Literally speaking though, I don't believe in free will. I was speaking practically above.

 

[Printer Bandit]

 

[Phoenix86]

The idea was you could have free will but most people didn't because of the generated reality, it was suppressed. The red/blue pill was free will/fate decision. So it existed, but was rare.

 

[moonbogg]

The idea was you could have free will but most people didn't because of the generated reality, it was suppressed. The red/blue pill was free will/fate decision. So it existed, but was rare.

You argue that the people in the matrix had no free will, but those outside of it had free will? The matrix was only a constrained reality within yet another constrained reality. So how is either actually free?

 

[SlitheryDee]

The AIs essentially control all the data that was received by the human brains in question. It seems like if they understood the human brain well enough, they could make certain that it received whatever input that was necessary to get the desired output. It should have been entirely possible to cause the humans in the matrix to do exactly what they wanted at all times by presenting them with whatever stimulus they needed to prompt the proper reaction, essentially eliminating free will.

In the matrix movie, that was clearly not happening though. They just created a world that was like the real world, dumped the humans into it, and let them fend for themselves. Their actions could probably still be guided to some extent by manipulating normally random elements in a purposeful way, but presumably they would react more or less like someone living in the real world would. Whether we want to call that free will or not is another story, but at least it isn't notably different from what natural born humans living in the world have. In the matrix movies it would seem that everyone should have free will.

 

[Phoenix86]

You argue that the people in the matrix had no free will, but those outside of it had free will? The matrix was only a constrained reality within yet another constrained reality. So how is either actually free?

Neo had free will to choose the red pill, he was in the matrix. The rest accepted the matrix, by some form of subconscious choice. Their free will accepted the fate of the matrix, or rather they chose to give their free will away, it's just they weren't aware of this decision.

Is anyone ever really free?

Let's not get too deep here, it's just an action flick with a bit of substance.

 

[zinfamous]

Neo had free will to choose the red pill, he was in the matrix. The rest accepted the matrix, by some form of subconscious choice. Their free will accepted the fate of the matrix, or rather they chose to give their free will away, it's just they weren't aware of this decision.

Is anyone ever really free?

Let's not get too deep here, it's just an action flick with a bit of substance.

The Wachowski dweebs aside, it is actually more than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat

This thought experiment has long consumed a rather substantial number of our greatest thinkers and philosophers for several decades now. Granted, they could be doing more useful things with their time, like refilling my double fracacino latte with caramel blast, but it does become a highly complicated problem once you start to peel back all of the layers.

 

[moonbogg]

Neo had free will to choose the red pill, he was in the matrix. The rest accepted the matrix, by some form of subconscious choice. Their free will accepted the fate of the matrix, or rather they chose to give their free will away, it's just they weren't aware of this decision.

Is anyone ever really free?

Let's not get too deep here, it's just an action flick with a bit of substance.

They could easily release another sequel where the entire show took place within yet another matrix, and that system within yet another ad infinitum. How could you ever know? You don't, and you can't. Only God could have true free will, and even that has its problems. In particular, God didn't choose to exist, yet he does. See?

 

[Phoenix86]

They could easily release another sequel where the entire show took place within yet another matrix, and that system within yet another ad infinitum. How could you ever know? You don't, and you can't. Only God could have true free will, and even that has its problems. In particular, God didn't choose to exist, yet he does. See?

If you're going to get smashed before 5 you need to share with the class.

 

[Jeff7]

Not spelled out in the movie, so open to interpretation. But why would the computer care what anybody chose to 'become', because it's only imaginary? Somebody could choose to become the POTUSA or a drug-dealer; would not matter to it an iota.

That said, the basic premise of the movie was bs: that machines need humans for their body heat and energy. Any computer that highly evolved and sentient should be able to find far more efficient ways of generating heat and energy than human bodies. Once you gloss over that in the quest for a 'great movie experience', other plot gaps are just fluff.

The world looked like crap, so they didn't seem to care about aesthetics.
- Burn trees and dessicated animal carcasses.
- Burn fossil fuels.
- Nuclear fission.
- Nuclear fusion. (Which the movie stated they already had!)

Nuclear fusion or fission weren't good enough for them? They had to use something that was more fragile, more resistant, and less efficient?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

The whole thing is played out as Christian mythos, so I chuckled at the free will question. How many times have we seen that discussion take place in religious threads?

Like Speilberg, they give the whole thing away within the first 15min. When he gives the guy the program, and the guy tells him he is his savior, his own personal Jesus Christ. It is reminiscent of Back to the Future, when the principal says no McFly has ever amounted to anything in the history of Hill Valley. And Marty replies that history is going to change.

Neo is Jesus, Smith is the debil, the Architect and Oracle are the other 2 parts of the Trinity wink wink nudge nudge say no more say no more.

So the question of free will is high comedy to me, given that context. It makes the ability of the film to inspire pseudo-religious discussions like this, one of the greatest troll jobs ever. IMO of course.

 

[Dude111]

A good write up

http://web.archive.org/web/20040223050316/http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php

I would definetly take THE RED PILL If I had to but since I am already "awake",there is no need to.........

Its good TO NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE RED PILL TO SEE THE "REAL" REALITY!!

This so called "REALITY" has been created for you to "live like they want you living" -- If you have a clear/open UNCOMPROMISED MIND,you can see thru all the BS to whats really what ........ (I am grateful to be WIDE AWAKE)

 

[Nograts]

A good write up

http://web.archive.org/web/20040223050316/http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php

I would definetly take THE RED PILL If I had to but since I am already "awake",there is no need to.........

Its good TO NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE RED PILL TO SEE THE "REAL" REALITY!!

This so called "REALITY" has been created for you to "live like they want you living" -- If you have a clear/open UNCOMPROMISED MIND,you can see thru all the BS to whats really what ........ (I am grateful to be WIDE AWAKE)

What in the holy fuck are you going on about now?