The man who predicted the meltdown and discredited economic conservativism/Reaganism

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
http://www.newsweek.com/id/207390?from=rss

One of the few economists actually worth a damn. His more notable works on information asymmetry and screening are what makes him famous. The latter topics is one of the reasons why free market health care will NEVER work (not discussed in the article, but entirely relevant to the healthcare debate)

I also agree with his criticism on the bank bailout on a moral level. While the bailout did save the credit market, it was a get out of jail free card for wall street. I think a temporary nationalization would have been better.

It's no surprise that stiglitz is one of the most highly ranked/most cited economists in the world:

http://ideas.repec.org/top/top.person.all.html

If conservatives would get the hell out of the 19th/20th century and actually learned something other than outdated neo-classical economics, this country would unfuck itself quite fast.

Anya Stiglitz was in the middle of a Pilates class in Central Park on an April morning when her cell phone rang. Glancing down, she saw "202" pop up?no number attached?and knew it was the White House. An aide to Larry Summers was on the line, looking for her husband, the Nobel Prize?winning economist Joseph Stiglitz. Anya said she'd pass on the message to Joe?then went back to work on her abs. No big deal, she thought. People often call her when they want to talk to Joe, because even though he's spent four decades figuring out how the global economy works, he hasn't quite gotten the hang of voice mail. "He doesn't listen to his messages, so if you want to talk to him, keep calling," Anya says on his cell-phone recording.

Anya figured Summers, Obama's chief economic adviser, was probably just calling to gripe about Joe's latest op-ed in The New York Times. Joe Stiglitz and Larry Summers, two towering intellects with egos to match, are not each other's favorite economist. "They respect each other, but they hate each other like poison," says Bruce Greenwald, Stiglitz's friend and academic collaborator at Columbia. ("I've got huge admiration for Joe as an economic thinker," Summers told NEWSWEEK.) Stiglitz had been hammering at Obama's economic team for its handling of the financial crisis. He wrote that the stimulus program was too small to be effective?a criticism that has since swelled into a chorus, though Obama says he's not adding more money. Stiglitz also had called the administration's bailout plan a giveaway to Wall Street, an "ersatz capitalism" that would save the banks' investors and creditors and screw the taxpayers. "I thought, Larry?he's just going to yell at Joe," Anya recalls.

But Summers's aide soon called back, and this time he said it was urgent: could Professor Stiglitz come to Washington for a dinner hosted by the president?that same night? Anya patched him through to Joe's office at Columbia University; Stiglitz accepted, and jumped on an early train. He was a little miffed: the other eminent economists attending the dinner, like Princeton's Alan Blinder and Harvard's Kenneth Rogoff, had been invited the week before. Stiglitz, a former chairman of Bill Clinton's Council of Economic Advisers, had supported Barack Obama as a candidate as early as 2007. But until that day, four months into the administration, he had heard barely a word from the White House. Even now, when the president was making an effort to hear a range of economic voices, Stiglitz seemed to be an afterthought. (A White House spokesman said only that the president wished to include Stiglitz.)

Such is the lot of Joe Stiglitz. Even in the contentious world of economics, he is considered somewhat prickly. And while he may be a Nobel laureate, in Washington he's seen as just another economic critic?and not always a welcome one. Few Americans recognize his name, and fewer still would recognize the man, who is short and stocky and bears a faint resemblance to Mel Brooks. Yet Stiglitz's work is cited by more economists than anyone else's in the world, according to data compiled by the University of Connecticut. And when he goes abroad?to Europe, Asia, and Latin America?he is received like a superstar, a modern-day oracle. "In Asia they treat him like a god," says Robert Johnson, a former chief economist for the Senate banking committee who has traveled with him. "People walk up to him on the streets."

Stiglitz has won fans in China and other emerging G20 nations by arguing that the global economic system is stacked against poor nations, and by standing up to the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. He is also the most prominent American economist to propose a long-term solution to the imbalances in capital flows that have wreaked havoc, from the Asian contagion of the late '90s to the subprime-investment craze. Beijing has more or less endorsed Stiglitz's idea for a new global reserve system to replace the U.S. dollar as the world currency. Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao has been influenced by Stiglitz's work, especially when "he talks about the economics of poor people," says Fang Xinghai, the head of Shanghai's financial-services office. But his stature is huge in Europe as well: French President Nicolas Sarkozy recently featured him at a conference on rethinking globalization. And earlier this month, while traveling to Europe and South Africa, Stiglitz received a call from British Prime Minister Gordon Brown's office: could he return through London and help the P.M. get ready for the G20 meeting in Pittsburgh?

Stiglitz is perhaps best known for his unrelenting assault on an idea that has dominated the global landscape since Ronald Reagan: that markets work well on their own and governments should stay out of the way. Since the days of Adam Smith, classical economic theory has held that free markets are always efficient, with rare exceptions. Stiglitz is the leader of a school of economics that, for the past 30 years, has developed complex mathematical models to disprove that idea. The subprime-mortgage disaster was almost tailor-made evidence that financial markets often fail without rigorous government supervision, Stiglitz and his allies say. The work that won Stiglitz the Nobel in 2001 showed how "imperfect" information that is unequally shared by participants in a transaction can make markets go haywire, giving unfair advantage to one party. The subprime scandal was all about people who knew a lot?like mortgage lenders and Wall Street derivatives traders?exploiting people who had less information, like global investors who bought up subprime- mortgage-backed securities. As Stiglitz puts it: "Globalization opened up opportunities to find new people to exploit their ignorance. And we found them."

Stiglitz's empathy for the little guy?and economically backward nations?comes to him naturally. The son of a schoolteacher and an insurance salesman, he grew up in one of America's grittiest industrial cities?Gary, Ind.?and was shaped by the social inequalities and labor strife he observed there. Stiglitz remembers realizing as a small boy that something was wrong with our system. The Stiglitzes, like many middle-class families, had an African-American maid. She was from the South and had little education. "I remember thinking, why do we still have people in America who have a sixth-grade education?" he says.

Those early experiences in Gary gave Stiglitz a social conscience?as a college student, he attended Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech?and led him to probe the reasons why markets failed. While studying at MIT, he says he realized that if Smith's "invisible hand" always guided behavior correctly, the kind of unemployment and poverty he had witnessed in Gary shouldn't exist. "I was struck by the incongruity between the models that I was taught and the world that I had seen growing up," Stiglitz said in his Nobel Prize lecture in 2001. In the same speech he declared that the invisible hand "might not exist at all." The solution, Stiglitz says, is to move beyond ideology and to develop a balance between market-driven economies?which he favors?and government oversight.

Stiglitz has warned for years that pro-market zeal would cause a global financial meltdown very much like the one that gripped the world last year. In the early '90s, as a member of Clinton's Council of Economic Advisers, Stiglitz argued (unsuccessfully) against opening up capital flows too rapidly to developing countries, saying those markets weren't ready to handle "hot money" from Wall Street. Later in the decade, he spoke out (without results) against repealing the Glass-Steagall Act, which regulated financial institutions and separated commercial from investment banking. Since at least 1990, Stiglitz has talked about the risks of securitizing mortgages, questioning whether markets and authorities would grow careless "about the importance of screening loan applicants." Malaysian economist Andrew Sheng says, "I think Stiglitz is the nearest thing there is to Keynes in this crisis."

That would be John Maynard Keynes, the great 20th-century economist who rocketed to international renown in late 1919 when he published The Economic Consequences of the Peace. In his book, Keynes warned that the draconian penalties imposed on Germany after World War I would lead to political disaster. No one listened. The disaster he predicted turned out to be World War II. Like Stiglitz, Keynes was not a favorite at the White House. Keynes also believed that markets were imperfect: he invented modern macroeconomics?which calls for major government intervention to help ailing economies?in response to the Great Depression. But after meeting Keynes for the first time in 1934, FDR dismissed him as too abstract and intellectual, according to Robert Skidelsky, Keynes's biographer. Keynes himself fretted that Roosevelt was not spending enough.

To his critics?and there are many?Stiglitz is a self-aggrandizing rock-thrower. Even some of his intellectual allies note that while Stiglitz is often right on the substance of issues, he tends to leap to the conclusion that government can make things better. Harvard economist Rogoff has called him intolerably arrogant?though he added that Stiglitz is a "towering genius." In a letter to -Stiglitz published in 2002, Rogoff recalled a moment when the two of them were teaching at Princeton and former Fed chairman Paul Volcker's name came up for tenure. "You turned to me and said, 'Ken, you used to work for Volcker at the Fed. Tell me, is he really smart?' I responded something to the effect of 'Well, he was arguably the greatest Federal Reserve chairman of the 20th century.' To which you replied, 'But is he smart like us?'" (Stiglitz says he can't remember the comment, but adds that he might have been referring to whether Volcker was an abstract thinker.)

Stiglitz's defenders say one possible explanation for his outsider status in Washington is his ongoing rivalry with Summers. While they are both devotees of Keynes, Summers often has supported deregulation of financial markets?or at least he did before last year?while Stiglitz has made a career of mistrusting markets. Since the early '90s, when Summers was a senior Treasury official and Stiglitz was on the Council of Economic Advisers, the two have engaged in fierce policy debates. The first fight was over the Clinton admin-is-tration's efforts to pry open emerging financial markets, such as South Korea's. Stiglitz argued there wasn't good evidence that liberalizing poorly regulated Third World markets would make any one more prosperous; Summers wanted them open to U.S. firms.

The differences between them grew bitter in the late 1990s, when Stiglitz was chief economist for the World Bank and took issue with the way Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, and Summers, who was then deputy secretary, were handling the Asian "contagion" financial collapse. After World Bank president James Wolfensohn declined to reappoint him in 1999, Stiglitz became convinced that Summers was behind the slight. Summers denies this, and maintains that no rivalry exists between them. Summers's deputy Jason Furman says that Summers now "talks to [Stiglitz] a lot." "A lot" is an exaggeration, Stiglitz responds. "We've talked one or two times," he says.

Despite the Obama team's occasional efforts to reach out to him, Stiglitz remains deeply unhappy about the administration's approach to the financial crisis. Rather than breaking up or restructuring the big banks that failed, "the Obama administration has actually expanded the notion of 'too big to fail,' " he says. In a veiled poke at his dubious standing in Washington, Stiglitz adds: "In Britain there is a more open discussion of these issues." A senior White House official, responding to this critique, says that the Obama administration is most often criticized these days for intervening too much in the economy, not too little.

In other respects, Obama is embracing some of Stiglitz's views, suggests Peter Orszag, director of the Office of Management and Budget?and a former Stiglitz protégé (he worked for Stiglitz during the Clinton administration). One example: Obama's new idea for reforming health care by creating a government-run program to compete with private-sector insurers. "There is an intellectual paradigm in health care that says you should move to purely private markets," says Orszag. "Joe's perspective would suggest major difficulties [with that]. That led to the thought that we need a mix: there is an important government role."

Today, settled as a professor at Columbia, Stiglitz occasionally finds himself welcomed in the nation's capital, though usually at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue, to testify before Congress. While he had no great desire to go back into government, friends say he was deeply disappointed when an offer didn't come from Obama last fall. Not surprisingly, Stiglitz believes his old rival was behind it, though Summers denies this. As for the invitation to dinner at the White House, there were a few theories kicked around the spacious Stiglitz household on Manhattan's Upper West Side as to why it came at the last minute: one was that Obama, in an interview posted online that week by The New York Times, had cited Stiglitz as one of the critics he listens to, so it would have seemed strange if he hadn't been invited to the dinner. While Stiglitz was flattered by the discussion over a dinner of roast beef and Michelle Obama's homegrown lettuce, he can't stop himself from complaining that an occasional meal with dissidents is not the best way for the president to formulate policy. "Some of the most difficult debates and judgments can't really be hammered out in an hour-and-a-half meeting covering lots of topics," he says. Stiglitz may a prophet without much honor in Washington, but he seems to be determined to keep the prophecies coming.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
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A lot of people predicted this meltdown... it wasn't the first, it won't be last.

As far as absolutely free market principles not working... what the US has had in last 80+ years is not an absolutely free market nor is any other economy on the planet. We have safety nets for businesses and most importantly, banks.... so they make hazardous business decisions. If every bank/business that went insolvent was simply allowed to fail, banks and business would not take the gambles that they do.

But I'll agree that if we call what we have now a free market... then yeah, this guy is totally right (like he needs my agreement)... it is impossible for this system to do anything but increase the public debt. We presently have a banking system where risk is immaterial, because the tax payer foots the loses, and profit is everything.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
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For ever Stiglitz hack you will find 100 objective economists that will dispute him. Free markets "fail" IN SPITE of rigorous government supervision. Most of the time the government intervenes when markets fail, it makes the situation worse. This is accepted by most economists.

For the record everyone and their mother predicted the meltdown. This guy is no one special.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: JS80
For ever Stiglitz hack you will find 100 objective economists that will dispute him. Free markets "fail" IN SPITE of rigorous government supervision. Most of the time the government intervenes when markets fail, it makes the situation worse. This is accepted by most economists.

For the record everyone and their mother predicted the meltdown. This guy is no one special.

Yeah, it's accepted by economists and people like yourself who live in the past. Pretty easy to call someone who was right about pretty much everything a hack with the anonymity of the internet.

You guys still cling to 'the economic man' where your models 'work' as long as you premise all your ideas with 'In a perfect world'. Get back to me when you decide to learn a bit about behavioral economics and how the real world works. It's really cute how you cling to outdated economic models, it really is.

FYI, if Japan listened to you, they would have let toyota fail and they'd be trading silk instead. Oh God, government intervention surely fucked that up.
 

RedChief

Senior member
Dec 20, 2004
533
0
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Originally posted by: Phokus
Yeah, it's accepted by economists and idiots like yourself who live in the past.

Last time I alluded to calling someone a name, I got a 3 day vacation. Lets see if the mods are unbiased and make Phokus take one also.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
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Nationalization of any piece of this economy is a good idea,,because we all know that the people that are involved in controlling this would be making their decisions based upon what is best for the rest of us, and without any regard to their own self-interests.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Nationalization of any piece of this economy is a good idea,,because we all know that the people that are involved in controlling this would be making their decisions based upon what is best for the rest of us, and without any regard to their own self-interests.

TEMPORARY nationalization
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: JS80
For ever Stiglitz hack you will find 100 objective economists that will dispute him. Free markets "fail" IN SPITE of rigorous government supervision. Most of the time the government intervenes when markets fail, it makes the situation worse. This is accepted by most economists.
No it isn't, outside of a few libertopian shitholes
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: JS80
For ever Stiglitz hack you will find 100 objective economists that will dispute him. Free markets "fail" IN SPITE of rigorous government supervision. Most of the time the government intervenes when markets fail, it makes the situation worse. This is accepted by most economists.

For the record everyone and their mother predicted the meltdown. This guy is no one special.

Nothing you said in this post is remotely true. FYI. Price ceilings and floors via gov't intervention isn't remotely the same things Stiglitz is talking about.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: JS80
For ever Stiglitz hack you will find 100 objective economists that will dispute him. Free markets "fail" IN SPITE of rigorous government supervision. Most of the time the government intervenes when markets fail, it makes the situation worse. This is accepted by most economists.
No it isn't, outside of a few libertopian shitholes

"In the U.S., an overwhelming majority of economists (81%) support progressive taxation.[18][19]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: JS80
For ever Stiglitz hack you will find 100 objective economists that will dispute him. Free markets "fail" IN SPITE of rigorous government supervision. Most of the time the government intervenes when markets fail, it makes the situation worse. This is accepted by most economists.

For the record everyone and their mother predicted the meltdown. This guy is no one special.

I guess this makes you even brighter than Stiglitz, with his meaningless Nobel prize which was obviously mistakenly awarded. It's absolutely amazing how here on ATPN we have so many super-geniuses that out-expert the experts in virtually every field.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: totalnoob
81% of Americans believe the earth was created in 7 days. Your point?

Actually my point wasn't that progressive taxation was right, but to show JS80 that economists aren't the magical libertarian unicorns that he thinks they are.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,734
54,747
136
Originally posted by: JS80
For ever Stiglitz hack you will find 100 objective economists that will dispute him. Free markets "fail" IN SPITE of rigorous government supervision. Most of the time the government intervenes when markets fail, it makes the situation worse. This is accepted by most economists.

For the record everyone and their mother predicted the meltdown. This guy is no one special.

You've already tried this lie, and have been called out on it repeatedly. All you're doing now is embarrassing yourself.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: charrison
I will take imperfect markets over centralized planning any day.

At least you admit imperfect markets exist.

Now you'll just have to learn that there's a difference between soviet styled central planning and mixed economies. It's all baby steps for you conservatives.

*pats charrison on head and gives him gold star*
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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Originally posted by: Phokus
http://www.newsweek.com/id/207390?from=rss

One of the few economists actually worth a damn. His more notable works on information asymmetry and screening are what makes him famous. The latter topics is one of the reasons why free market health care will NEVER work (not discussed in the article, but entirely relevant to the healthcare debate)

I also agree with his criticism on the bank bailout on a moral level. While the bailout did save the credit market, it was a get out of jail free card for wall street. I think a temporary nationalization would have been better.

It's no surprise that stiglitz is one of the most highly ranked/most cited economists in the world:

http://ideas.repec.org/top/top.person.all.html

If conservatives would get the hell out of the 19th/20th century and actually learned something other than outdated neo-classical economics, this country would unfuck itself quite fast.

.....blah blah
[/quote]

Predicting a "meltdown" is like predicting someone is gonna die. Yeah we all know "meltdown" or economic crisis is gonna happen sometime, the prediction is totally useless if you can't tell when that's gonna happen.

Yeah sure government control is gonna solve all the problems in the world. Russia and China with Stalin and Mao had plenty of gov. control, but the people died in Russia and China during their time is comparable to WW2.

You and all the armchair economist can criticize the current system and point to the crisis after the fact like you guys are genious. But show me a developed country with socialist/government controled agenda with better social/economic result over the past 20~30 years than the US and we can have a conversation.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,734
54,747
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Originally posted by: rchiu

You and all the armchair economist can criticize the current system and point to the crisis after the fact like you guys are genious. But show me a developed country with socialist/government controled agenda with better social/economic result over the past 20~30 years than the US and we can have a conversation.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'socialist/government controlled agenda', but if you consider European countries to be that there are several who have had better GDP growth over the last 30 years than the US.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: charrison
I will take imperfect markets over centralized planning any day.

At least you admit imperfect markets exist.

Now you'll just have to learn that there's a difference between soviet styled central planning and mixed economies. It's all baby steps for you conservatives.

*pats charrison on head and gives him gold star*

But I dont know of any economist that claim markets are perfect. Markets make mistake and do make corrections and sometimes very painful ones. However central planning more often than not rewards failure by throwing money at broken systems.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: charrison
I will take imperfect markets over centralized planning any day.

Centralized planning is just another 'imperfect' market.

And my cat predicted the meltdown.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: charrison
I will take imperfect markets over centralized planning any day.

Centralized planning is just another 'imperfect' market.

And my cat predicted the meltdown.

Yes any highly regulated market is still a market. A highly regulated market is not a free market and we know how well govt centralized planning works out.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: charrison
I will take imperfect markets over centralized planning any day.

At least you admit imperfect markets exist.

Now you'll just have to learn that there's a difference between soviet styled central planning and mixed economies. It's all baby steps for you conservatives.

*pats charrison on head and gives him gold star*

Mixed economies have 'imperfect markets' by definition.

What's your point except to be a partisan tool? Maybe you'll just have to learn there's a difference between central planning and regulation...
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rchiu

You and all the armchair economist can criticize the current system and point to the crisis after the fact like you guys are genious. But show me a developed country with socialist/government controled agenda with better social/economic result over the past 20~30 years than the US and we can have a conversation.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'socialist/government controlled agenda', but if you consider European countries to be that there are several who have had better GDP growth over the last 30 years than the US.

Care to give specific examples?

Here is GDP (1980 by country) vs GDP (2006 by country)

US is pulling away from the rest of the world by pretty good margin, especially comparing to the developed countries in Europe like France, Germany and Italy, all of which got a good deal more government interventionalist policies compared to the US.