The line between men and women has become blurred

[jhu]

I think this goes past human sexuality, there is a difference in being gay and being transgender.

How is genetics false and ignorance? Isn't there genetic code that is passed down from mother to daughter and father to son?
By looking at the genetic code, scientist can tell the sex of the person? Isn't that a fact, or is it junk science?

No amount of hormones and no amount of surgeries will ever change the scientifically proven fact that someone is male or female.

Please read and answer the question I posed to you (post #33)

 

[classy]

That oversimplifies the issue. It's more about their making claims on scientific issues that are false and ignore science - issues like human sexuality.

Talk about someone having go and read. Almost all religions when it comes to sexuality believes a person should "conform" to what is considered a proper sexuality. Most religions believe sexuality is a choice of a persons will.

Now you may disagree with that and thats fine. But the one thing you can't deny is, that if a person is born a male or female, nature says they were designed to come together. There is just no way to deny that. Whether natural law or god inspired.........males and females are born in this world to cohabitate with each other. To deny that is clearly the intended intention, is to literally lie to oneself.

Again, is this a man or a woman?

 

[Texashiker]

Since you seem to be an expert on such issues, what would you call a person with 46XY karyotype and defective androgen receptors? Is this person male or female?

I do not know enough to offer an opinion on that topic.

What do genetic test say?

If the persons genetics were analyzed, would they be male of female?

 

[jhu]

I do not know enough to offer an opinion on that topic.

What do genetic test say?

If the persons genetics were analyzed, would they be male of female?

Genetically, they karyotype as male. Physically they grow up looking like females.

 

[classy]

What, exactly, is a choice? Is having an attraction to the same gender a choice? Is having an attraction to the opposite gender not a choice?

Is being born male, female, hermaphrodite, or androgynous a choice?

Lets just shut down this whole hermaphrodite argument. One it is only in lesser life forms and some plants. In some of those intended by nature. But there is no proof that is the case in humans. And it is "abnormal" for a human to be born with both sexes.

Of course I have no choice in being born a male or female. But I am born one or the other. If I am born a man, but choose to live as woman, am I still not a man? And vice-versa?

If attraction is all that is needed to rule out that its a choice, then I guess being a pedophile is okay? I guess its okay to be attracted to whores on the corner? I love diamonds, they are so beautiful, so I guess I can knock off this jewelery store then. To justify the totality of one's behavior soley for just having a desire or attraction to a thing is flawed. If not then we are doomed.....................

 

[Fear No Evil]

Can women piss while standing? Can men piss while sitting? Can you ever piece together a single logical argument? Magic 8 ball says Yes, Yes, Outlook not so good.

Ok, does they have a schlong or not?! lol

EDIT: Or better yet, do they put the toilet seat down after they stand and piss?

 

[Demo24]

I think this goes past human sexuality, there is a difference in being gay and being transgender.

Not so much. Both are differing states of psyche. You don't 'catch the gay', nor do you become 'transgender' because you just felt like being a woman that day (those that cross dress are not generally considered transgender). Both of these are states you are born with.

Genetically sure they will always be whichever they were born with. However that aside, if an individual is mentally the opposite and takes measures to be as close to that sex as possible, then are they not that gender now? Physically and mentally you might not even notice(unless you get them naked). I say there are, and that's backed up by psychology, medicine, and the ability to legally redefine ones self as that of the opposite sex.

 

[zsdersw]

Lets just shut down this whole hermaphrodite argument. One it is only in lesser life forms and some plants. In some of those intended by nature. But there is no proof that is the case in humans. And it is "abnormal" for a human to be born with both sexes.

"Intended by nature" is an interesting phrase. How do you know what nature intends? Do you mean evolution?

If attraction is all that is needed to rule out that its a choice, then I guess being a pedophile is okay? I guess its okay to be attracted to whores on the corner? I love diamonds, they are so beautiful, so I guess I can knock off this jewelery store then. To justify the totality of one's behavior soley for just having a desire or attraction to a thing is flawed. If not then we are doomed.....................

You're seriously confused. Attraction and acting on that attraction are two entirely different things. The latter is a choice, the former is not.

As for justifying actions, the only actions that should not be justified are those that cause harm and/or are not consented to by those involved.

 

[peonyu]

Article from ABC news that talks about a transgender woman that became a man, then later in life had 3 children.

Person was born a woman
Changed gender to male
Never had female parts removed
Gave birth to 3 children

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/10/31/pregnant-man-thomas-beatie-may-stop-at-3-kids/

If someone can give birth, how can that person be defined as a male?

Isn't one of the dividing lines between male and female, is if they can bear children? If someone has ovaries and a uterus, how can that person be called a male?

People are more accepting of female gays / transgenders. A woman is always a woman if you ask me, do a DNA test. If it says - Two XX your a female. XY - Your a male. A man becoming a woman, lets be honest, is more disgusting than a female becoming a man to most people, so its not as accepted. There are more than enough "horror" stories of a man hooking up with a "woman" only to find "she" has a dick then the shit hits the fan in a bad way. Stories like that with female transgenders are hardly heard of.

Her being knocked up [as a ugly looking man] and birthing 3 kids denies her being a "man" but she never was one to begin with. Its just a piece of legal paper saying she is a man and nothing more.


Slightly off topic but I remember when the "man" in this story first got pregnant, the media acted as though WOW a MAN got pregnant! Funny shit since the media played down that it was a tranny [born as a woman] and not a real man at all...Big deal. But the pics of pregnent "thomas" were grosse looking as all hell.

 

[jhu]

People are more accepting of female gays / transgenders. A woman is always a woman if you ask me, do a DNA test. If it says - Two XX your a female. XY - Your a male. A man becoming a woman, lets be honest, is more disgusting than a female becoming a man to most people, so its not as accepted. There are more than enough "horror" stories of a man hooking up with a "woman" only to find "she" has a dick then the shit hits the fan in a bad way. Stories like that with female transgenders are hardly heard of.

Please see my question in post #33 and kindly provide an answer

 

[peonyu]

I would call that a genetic oddity, since its not common at all. 99%+ of people are born XX or XY only. Just because there are tiny number of exceptions does not change the rule.

Also people with that condition, almost all of them, are sterile and cannot reproduce. That adds weight to it not being a normal human condition so dont act as though it is. Its a condition that they are literally and physically born with though so they are not the same as a woman who one day decides to become a man.

 

[ShawnD1]

Where does society draw the line? Science says "yes, there is a difference on a genetic level", but people say "no, there is no difference its all in your head".

Strangely enough, extreme liberals say the same thing about race. "There's no such thing as race" then they ignore real differences like black people have more melanin and are more resistant to malaria, while white people are more resistant to the plague.

"Intended by nature" is an interesting phrase. How do you know what nature intends? Do you mean evolution?

Assuming that life has a purpose or direction is what a creationist would think. The main idea of evolution is that there is no goal or final product. Humans are not "more evolved" than bacteria and you can't "unevolve" or go backwards.

I always wonder what the deal is with people who hate gays. Gays are bad because they can't reproduce? Well then shouldn't greasy nerds be bad too because they can't reproduce?

 

[peonyu]

Strangely enough, extreme liberals say the same thing about race. "There's no such thing as race" then they ignore real differences like black people have more melanin and are more resistant to malaria, while white people are more resistant to the plague.

Those examples are just local resistances built over x ammount of time, nothing to do with race [outside of Sickle cell being a black disorder]. Arabs and Asians also have high resistance to the Plague since it hit them just as hard as it did Europe.

A more real difference is skin color and its effects but again that is just a development over time...Dark skin is better for the tropics since it blocks UV better. White [especially] and light skin is better for the north since it gains Vitamin D easily from the sun. Dark skinned people outside the tropics often end up with Vitamin D Deficiency [the UK has alot of cases of this now with immigrant Africans] since their coloring absorbs almost 0 Vitamin D.

 

[PokerGuy]

Obviously you've never heard of true hermaphrodites, androgyny, and other intersex conditions before.

It's exceedingly rare, obviously, but it does occur... often enough to say that, biologically, being either male or female is by no means guaranteed.

Obviously those things can and do occur, but that's similar to someone being born missing a limb. The point is, you are what you are. Mutilations, pills and all that other stuff can't change what you are. There's no confusion about what you are, there can only be confusion is in the world of political correctness.

 

[Jaskalas]

Aren't you supposed to be a libertarian? You know, live-and-let-live and all that jazz?

Why bring the government into this? You seem confused as to the subject matter. This person who gave birth is a woman, I won't have anyone telling me otherwise just because she wants to define it otherwise in her head.

You could also say that conservatives *are* confused about their gender, and we aren't. :hmm:

Speaking of confusion, is this person who gave birth a man or a woman? The answer is obvious, why should liberals tell us otherwise?

Nice field of strawmen.

Oh, strawmen? Let us review my claims.

• Liberals empathize with transgendered and I do not.

I speak for myself, and this thread is full of enraged liberals.

• Liberals see another minority group to take into their fold

Craig later made the connection himself.

• Liberals consider gender as defined in your head

Well... what other basis do you use for calling this woman, who gave birth, a man? I adamantly oppose the notion that gender should be recognized psychologically instead of physiologically. Gender itself is a physical distinction.

 

[zsdersw]

Oh, strawmen? Let us review my claims.

• Liberals empathize with transgendered and I do not.

I speak for myself, and this thread is full of enraged liberals.

• Liberals see another minority group to take into their fold

Craig later made the connection himself.

• Liberals consider gender as defined in your head

Well... what other basis do you use for calling this woman, who gave birth, a man? I adamantly oppose the notion that gender should be recognized psychologically instead of physiologically. Gender itself is a physical distinction.

Over-generalizations and false attributions.

Consider the following:

1. Craig234 != "Liberals". He may be one, but he isn't representative of them.

2. No one is particularly "enraged" in this thread.

3. Empathy is neither implied nor required.

 

[Lithium381]

So If i call myself a woman because i'm a woman in my head, i get to go into the ladies dressing room at our gym? Legally i'd be a woman right? they'd not be allowed to discriminate against me and say no. How about if i want to participate in womens sports even though i was born a man.....?

 

[jhu]

So If i call myself a woman because i'm a woman in my head, i get to go into the ladies dressing room at our gym? Legally i'd be a woman right? they'd not be allowed to discriminate against me and say no. How about if i want to participate in womens sports even though i was born a man.....?

Yes

 

[xj0hnx]

There's really nothing confusing about it. You are biologically either male or female. What you choose to do with those parts is up to you. This person was born a woman. Taking pills and "changing" didn't change that simple fact. Later she had kids, which is unsurprising considering she was born <gasp> a woman.

All the other stuff is just politically correct nonsense.

Pretty much this is it in a nut shell.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care at all if you were born a dude, and want to be a chick, and go lop off your dick, whatever, but you're still a dude with a lopped off dick in a dress.

Its funny that the right shows almost no tolerance for everyone and their choices.. yet criticizes others for their occasional intolerance.

If by occasional you mean constantly, then sure.

 

[Munky]

Or, the more likely explanation is that the woman was never a "man" even after having the operation, thus there's nothing stopping her from giving birth. That whole "lines are getting blurred" statement is just sensational tabloid material.

 

[Ninjahedge]

/me looks for line.....

/me wonders why "line" analogy used

/me shuffles off to better thread.

 

[Demo24]

Oh, strawmen? Let us review my claims.

• Liberals empathize with transgendered and I do not.

I speak for myself, and this thread is full of enraged liberals.

• Liberals see another minority group to take into their fold

Craig later made the connection himself.

• Liberals consider gender as defined in your head

Well... what other basis do you use for calling this woman, who gave birth, a man? I adamantly oppose the notion that gender should be recognized psychologically instead of physiologically. Gender itself is a physical distinction.

Christ you are dense. This has nothing to do with being 'liberal' or 'conservative', notice I've never once in this thread or elsewhere on P&N publicly identified with either label and I am challenging your ideology. How in the hell you spun this to only liberals saying gender is defined by mental state is beyond me.

And you are wrong. Gender is a collection of mental traits. Ones gender identity defines their core sense of being male or female. Sex defines the physiological differences.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by Texashiker
How can someone call themselves man or woman, when they are not that type of person on a genetic level?

If I called myself a grizzly bear, I would not be magically transformed into a bear.

How about a fish, just because I call myself a fish does not mean I can grow gills and breath water.

Maybe you should make a litttle effort to educate yourself before spewing ignorance.

There's plenty of information easily available. You sound like the kind of person who claims 'gays aren't natural' because you haven't met one before, so you make it up.

You can talk all day about what gays must be like, based on not knowing a thing.

This board as well as the Internets is filled with people like him, ignorant and haters. Has to be blamed on poor upbringing by the parents.

 

[bfdd]

There are legitimate people with gender identity issues, this person though does not deserve to be a man though. Not in any context in what we would normally identify as a man. Pretty sure men love their penises and don't like getting preggers. The opposite of those things has never been identified with the male gender or MAN. This individual case, fuck this is retarded and this is why so much State control in our lives is fucking retarded. Who gives a flying fuck what someone says they are or aren't, we're all fucking retarded.

 

[halik]

The Romans did not have gay or straight categories. Instead, they divided people into 2 groups:

People that like to be penetrated

People that liked to do the penetrating

As for our rigid concepts collapsing, I think the mindset of society will change over time. Its going to be a gradual change, instead of a collapse and instant change.

Brilliant.

That being said, gender is not a social construct, it's a chromosomal reality. Surgery, hormone therapy and/or different clothes will not change that.