The Leisure Class: Working poor have more free time

Stunt

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Jul 17, 2002
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This is an interesting concept; I've always wondered if the gap between the rich and poor was a result of individual choices or the environment in which the person is working within. I've always thought it was the choices of individuals; for example not taking the opportunity to get an education and develop in demand skills. It has been well documented that those who are educated in whatever trade, skill or field have increased their wealth immensly. The lower number of work hours will have a large impact as well as indicated by the article.

The Theory of the Leisure Class
An economic mystery: Why do the poor seem to have more free time than the rich?
By Steven E. Landsburg
Posted Friday, March 9, 2007, at 1:23 PM ET

As you've probably heard, there's been an explosion of inequality in the United States over the past four decades. The gap between high-skilled and low-skilled workers is bigger than ever before, and it continues to grow.

How can we close the gap? Well, I suppose we could round up a bunch of assembly-line workers and force them to mow the lawns of corporate vice presidents. Because the gap I'm talking about is the gap in leisure time, and it's the least educated who are pulling ahead.

In 1965, leisure was pretty much equally distributed across classes. People of the same age, sex, and family size tended to have about the same amount of leisure, regardless of their socioeconomic status. But since then, two things have happened. First, leisure (like income) has increased dramatically across the board. Second, though everyone's a winner, the biggest winners are at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.

To quantify those changes, you've got to decide exactly what leisure means. You can start by deciding what it's not. Surely working at your desk or on the assembly line is not leisure. Neither is cleaning or ironing. But what about standing around the water cooler, riding the train to work, gardening, pet care, or tinkering with your car? What about playing board games with your children?

Those are judgment calls, but it turns out not to matter very much what calls you make. When professors Mark Aguiar and Erik Hurst combined the results of several large surveys (including studies where randomly chosen subjects kept detailed time diaries), they found that by any definition, the trends are clear.

In 1965, the average man spent 42 hours a week working at the office or the factory; throw in coffee breaks, lunch breaks, and commuting time, and you're up to 51 hours. Today, instead of spending 42 and 51 hours, he spends 36 and 40. What's he doing with all that extra time? He spends a little on shopping, a little on housework, and a lot on watching TV, reading the newspaper, going to parties, relaxing, going to bars, playing golf, surfing the Web, visiting friends, and having sex. Overall, depending on exactly what you count, he's got an extra six to eight hours a week of leisure?call it the equivalent of nine extra weeks of vacation per year.

For women, time spent on the job is up from 17 hours a week to 24. With breaks and commuting thrown in, it's up from 20 hours to 26. But time spent on household chores is down from 35 hours a week to 22, for a net leisure gain of four to six hours. Call it five extra vacation weeks.

A small part of those gains is because of demographic change. The average American is older now and has fewer children, so it's not surprising that he or she works less. But even when you compare modern Americans to their 1965 counterparts?people with the same family size, age, and education?the gains are still on the order of 4 to 8 hours a week, or something like seven extra weeks of leisure per year.

But not for everyone. About 10 percent of us are stuck in 1965, leisurewise. At the opposite extreme, 10 percent of us have gained a staggering 14 hours a week or more. (Once again, your gains are measured in comparison to a person who, in 1965, had the same characteristics that you have today.) By and large, the biggest leisure gains have gone precisely to those with the most stagnant incomes?that is, the least skilled and the least educated. And conversely, the smallest leisure gains have been concentrated among the most educated, the same group that's had the biggest gains in income.

Aguiar and Hurst can't explain fully that rising inequality, just as nobody can explain fully the rising inequality in income. But there are, I think, two important morals here.

First, man does not live by bread alone. Our happiness depends partly on our incomes, but also on the time we spend with our friends, our hobbies, and our favorite TV shows. So, it's a good exercise in perspective to remember that by and large, the big winners in the income derby have been the small winners in the leisure derby, and vice versa.

Second, a certain class of pundits and politicians are quick to see any increase in income inequality as a problem that needs fixing?usually through some form of redistributive taxation. Applying the same philosophy to leisure, you could conclude that something must be done to reverse the trends of the past 40 years?say, by rounding up all those folks with extra time on their hands and putting them to (unpaid) work in the kitchens of their "less fortunate" neighbors. If you think it's OK to redistribute income but repellent to redistribute leisure, you might want to ask yourself what?if anything?is the fundamental difference.
link
 

smack Down

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Sep 10, 2005
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Go get any unskilled job. Enjoy your 30 hour week job that has a constantly changing schedule well everything changes except the total hours worked.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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The article is so ludicrious and disconnected from reality that it has to be a joke. Many members of the working poor end up having to work two or three poverty-wage jobs just to pay the rent. Also, many people who are underemployed part-time or unemployed would love to spend their time working at middle class jobs.

I'm wondering if Stunt could answer this for me because I'm tired of hearing the dogma about how education is the solution to our economic problems. Stunt, if everyone went to college and we doubled the number of MBAs, attorneys, computer programmers, and engineers, would the number of jobs (at prevailing wage and purchasing power rates) for MBAs, attorneys, computer programmers, and engineers also double in response to the increase in supply?

I don't doubt the statistics about how people with college educations generally do better than those without college educations, however, in recent months the politicians and the media have been bombarding the airwaves with it and offering education to the American people as a solution to the problems of global labor arbitrage. They are hoping to offer this notion to the public as an opiate of the masses.

In contrast, I believe that in reality supply does not control the amount of demand at a given price point (wages, purchasing power). So, if everyone goes to college as the media and politicians suggest, I doubt that the number of high-value-added college-education-requiring jobs at prevailing wage rates will increase proportionally to the increased number of degree holders. However, as the supply of people in these fields increase and thus as the price point decreases, the demand for less expensive labor might increase, consistent with basic microeconomic theory.

So, if we double the number of PhD scientists, will the number of jobs for PhD scientists at currently prevailing wages double? We already have a large oversupply, so why would doubling the number magically create double the number of jobs for them? What the politicians and media are putting forth doesn't make any sense.

I don't think it's an organized conspiracy to destroy the middle class and transform the nation into a third world country. Rather, I think it's a combination of panicked politicians attempting to secure campaign donations from wealthy and business interests that benefit from an increased supply of labor (essentially, a subsidy) while at the same time trying to placate a disconent populace. On the other side are economists who generally support free trade but have either abandonned their ability to reason, accepted donations from wealthy interests, or forgotten basic economic theory (aka "no-think economists") and who then accept the notion that unrestricted international trade is in every nation's rational selfish interest almost as a dogma. The media and pundits pick up on this and that is why the mainstream media keeps feeding the same dogma to the populace.

To hear some people tell it, the economy is just exploding with jobs and all you need do is to submit a couple resumes, do some softball interviews, and then start work at your new job

The article's claim that the poor have more leisure time is also dubious. When quality of leisure time is taken into account, the upper classes may have a much better time with the time they have. Also, because they can afford to eat healthier foods and better health care, the upper classes are liable to be able to live longer and more comfortably after retirement, enjoying lots of free time once the poor have died. Also, the upper classes will be able to retire much earlier than the working poor, who are liable to work as Walmart greeters until they die.
 

Stunt

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Jul 17, 2002
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I agree there's only so many professional positions available and if we produced more educated people, this wouldn't automatically result in less poor. What would happen is domestic labour could fill positions held by those on visa's. Right now there are many people coming from overseas to fill skilled labour shortages. This in effect would take one person out of a position of dependence and poverty and place them in a position of self sufficient living. Typically if an employee has a skill or trade, even if they are not working in their field, they are able to negotiate or collect a higher wage; especially in blue collar positions. This again has an interesting effect on labour markets and the economy as a whole. As a process engineer, all of my projects and improvements are determined worthy through ROI and a payback period of a year or less. If labour is more skilled and even a minimal wage increase is seen; this will result in shorter payback periods on automation. Automation requires development and maintenance by skilled professionals. Therefore education in itself can create demand for educated jobs; not immediately but long term. Keep in mind the skills must be in demand and worthwhile for a company to boost their rate; I don't think a psych degree would fly in this case.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: smack Down
Go get any unskilled job. Enjoy your 30 hour week job that has a constantly changing schedule well everything changes except the total hours worked.

The OP wouldn't know anything about that or apparently the article writer either.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,965
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I always wonder about the guys that get cut from corporate jobs after they've been there 10-15 years. They more times than not don't ascend to anywhere near the same payscale as their former jobs. Do they fit into these more liesure time categories by choice or by force of nobody wanting them?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: MadRat
I always wonder about the guys that get cut from corporate jobs after they've been there 10-15 years. They more times than not don't ascend to anywhere near the same payscale as their former jobs. Do they fit into these more liesure time categories by choice or by force of nobody wanting them?

Obviously according to the OP they're useless scum.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Stunt
I agree there's only so many professional positions available and if we produced more educated people, this wouldn't automatically result in less poor.

HuH? What economics crack pipe are you smoking? There are more professional positions available now than ever before, if the number of them was 'fixed' how could they have possibly grown? More educated people equals higher productivity equals less poor.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Stunt
I agree there's only so many professional positions available and if we produced more educated people, this wouldn't automatically result in less poor.

HuH? What economics crack pipe are you smoking? There are more professional positions available now than ever before, if the number of them was 'fixed' how could they have possibly grown? More educated people equals higher productivity equals less poor.

More or less true, with a closed population and open trade.

In the bigger picture, it would take centuries to materially shift the entire world's economy to automated production and high-skilled employment, but that shouldn't stop anyone from getting an education, because it's still beneficial both to self and society.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
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did the article even say there was a connection between being poor and having more time on your hands? :confused: it seemed like they were just saying that some people have more time to spend outside of work now, and some people have skewed priorities and a blackberry stapled to their hand.
 

ScottMac

Moderator<br>Networking<br>Elite member
Mar 19, 2001
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There are a lot of H1b visa-toting folks filling jobs in the US because of the "lack of qualified Americans" available to fill them.

(I imagine some would append " at the offered wage" to the end of the above sentance)

I believe there was even a push to increase the number of permitted H1bs a few years ago because there was (perception of) an ongoing shortage.

Personally, I say forget the focus on college education (at least for now), work on getting K-12 up-to-speed first. Getting a better foundational education would likely give the college folks a better shot at doing well.

FWIW
 

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
In the bigger picture, it would take centuries to materially shift the entire world's economy to automated production and high-skilled employment, but that shouldn't stop anyone from getting an education, because it's still beneficial both to self and society.


How do you draw that conclusion? India and China are rapidly becoming industrialized and at this rate will become fully industrialized within far less time than centuries and they each have populations of roughly 1 billion+.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
In the bigger picture, it would take centuries to materially shift the entire world's economy to automated production and high-skilled employment, but that shouldn't stop anyone from getting an education, because it's still beneficial both to self and society.


How do you draw that conclusion? India and China are rapidly becoming industrialized and at this rate will become fully industrialized within far less time than centuries and they each have populations of roughly 1 billion+.

Industrialized != 'skilled'. Industrialization, as a 'step' doesn't change the wellbeing of the working class, only the owning class. After industrialization, skills become relevant on a wide-scale.

'Centuries' may have been an overstatement. Assuming no real impact of oil and pollution concerns, 'a century or more' would be more accurate.
 

fallensight

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Apr 12, 2006
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Talk about propaganda. The whole thing is trying to say work more lazy ass, it isnt always that simple. For starters, the lower income people are by and large hourly. How companies run things now, that means 40 hours, and not a sec more, no overtime, period. The higher income are tend to either be people who still pull overtime, or are salaried, and salary workers tend to be higher payed. So there is part of the difference.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
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It's a reflection of the trend towards part time employment. Employers get a big break in terms of payments to state unemployment funds, workmen's comp, etc...

They also change hours randomly, meaning it's tough to hold down two part time jobs, as many at the bottom end have done for generations...

More leisure time isn't necessarily what they want... it's what they can get...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
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Originally posted by: fallensight
Talk about propaganda. The whole thing is trying to say work more lazy ass, it isnt always that simple. For starters, the lower income people are by and large hourly. How companies run things now, that means 40 hours, and not a sec more, no overtime, period. The higher income are tend to either be people who still pull overtime, or are salaried, and salary workers tend to be higher payed. So there is part of the difference.

Indeed. I also find it interesting how Stunt castigates poor folks for not "taking the opportunities offered". No offense, but that takes a pretty spectacular misunderstanding of poor folks. Not everyone is born into the middle class, with college simply something you need good enough grades to attend. Those opportunities aren't offered to everyone, you know.

I also wonder if there isn't a bit of ego stroking involved in economic viewpoints like Stunt's. After all, if ALL success is entirely due to hard work and determination, than whatever your social status is above other people, you should feel proud of it. By intentionally disregarding factors over which you have no control, it's not only giving you a convenient reason to hate the poor, it's also making more of your accomplishment than you really deserve.

Edit: I think a good term for it might be the "Paris Hilton school of economics". By Stunt's logic, Paris Hilton deserves more praise than a hard working blue collar worker because she was smart enough to "take the opportunities offered" in the form of hand-outs from her rich daddy. But she's well off, right? So obviously she's a hard worker!
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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There are lots of opportunities to be had and I am personally quite surprised people are endorsing a passive approach towards the poor, just because they feel sorry for them. Sure it's a lot more difficult to start from nothing and work your way up when compared to much wealthier people; but keep in mind the poorest of the poor have a much easier time becoming wealthier than someone in a 3rd world country. If a person is motivated, doesn't want to be poor and actually puts effort into their lives; anyone can be successful (ie. self sufficient).

It seems like you have all come to the agreement that companies schedule low income workers at random times and they never get a chance to work more hours. Fair enough but that means there's several hours every day and weekend time where instead of watching American Idol or nascar, they can study a skill or a trade. Usually books and tuition are tax deductable (an opportunity i was mentioning) and can be done in the increasing amount of leisure time pointed out in this article. Once they are trained in any sort of skill they can apply for jobs that are more steady with opportunities for overtime and higher wages. Hell if they pick something similar to their current job the company will likely help pay for the schooling (another opportunity). So even after you screw up all the opportunities given to you as a kid in highschool (to go to university and college on interest free student loans and tax incentives) there's still much more a person can do to become wealthier.

The article merely points out that the poor have an increasing amount of free time either by choice or not; it's not like they are working 3 jobs and still just scraping by.

As for the Paris Hilton comment...she wouldn't even be considered as she doesn't work and she has a ton of free time. This article points out the free time of the working poor. Obviously you are going to find exceptions to every rule and celebrities are not representative of the general population; most wealthy people do indeed work their asses off.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
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Originally posted by: Stunt
As for the Paris Hilton comment...she wouldn't even be considered as she doesn't work and she has a ton of free time.

This article points out the free time of the working poor.

Obviously you are going to find exceptions to every rule and celebrities are not representative of the general population; most wealthy people do indeed work their asses off.

Why do you have such a consistency against poor Americans?
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
As for the Paris Hilton comment...she wouldn't even be considered as she doesn't work and she has a ton of free time.

This article points out the free time of the working poor.

Obviously you are going to find exceptions to every rule and celebrities are not representative of the general population; most wealthy people do indeed work their asses off.

Why do you have such a consistency against poor Americans?

Seriously. It seems like his posts are always back handed slaps at working class folks and how great he is.

 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
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One person has two part-time jobs and you count the time away from each job as leisure. One 32 hour a week job + 10 hours leisure. The other job 20 hours a week = 22 hours leisure. For a grand total of 32 more hours of leisure after working 52 hours in a week. Depends how they slant the equations, don't it?

P.S. Propaganda BU11SH1t from a Bu11sh1t site?
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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Wonderful... pull out Paris Hilton as representative of the hardworking people, many blue-collar, who manage to break into millionaire status. Talk about media-driven perspective. Come on down to the real world.

Higher income people are routinely derided by politicians, journalists, and snooty leftists in general as lucky (maybe even shady) citizens who have typically achieved their wealth through finagling on Wall Street, inheritance, or elsewhere. Look at Gephardt?s recent reference to individuals who earn good incomes as "winners in the lottery of life"... just one recent example of this mindset. It seems the basic message is that such people should be grateful the government allows them to keep some of their money.

55 percent of the households in the lowest fifth of the income spectrum today have no paid workers at all. Of the minority who do work, only about a quarter work full-time. It's ONE aspect of this equation, but an important aspect nonetheless... the very poor tend not to work, or at least work much less.

There are jobs to be had. Somewhere. It's a matter attitude... namely, motivation and discipline. You may start off small, but you can move up. The problem with the poor is not economic: it's social and behavorial. I've lived it. I've seen it first hand. The facts support it. People may drop into the poor category in their lives... maybe you're born into it like I was, or young people just starting out, or hard times, or older people retiring... but the chronic poor are mired in a subculture of general irresponsibility. IMO there is simply no GOOD reason why a person should be poor for decades.

The biggest issue is, are the opportunities present for people to take advantage of? In some cases, maybe not. In most cases, probably so. Whether or not people take advantage of this great country's opportunities is largely a choice. Decisions have consequences.

The work issue stunt brings up and the personal responsibility aspect of the poor always gives Libs and other economic dolts fits, because those two important facets poke hyoles in their grand schemes and rationale.



 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
There are lots of opportunities to be had and I am personally quite surprised people are endorsing a passive approach towards the poor, just because they feel sorry for them. Sure it's a lot more difficult to start from nothing and work your way up when compared to much wealthier people; but keep in mind the poorest of the poor have a much easier time becoming wealthier than someone in a 3rd world country. If a person is motivated, doesn't want to be poor and actually puts effort into their lives; anyone can be successful (ie. self sufficient).

It seems like you have all come to the agreement that companies schedule low income workers at random times and they never get a chance to work more hours. Fair enough but that means there's several hours every day and weekend time where instead of watching American Idol or nascar, they can study a skill or a trade. Usually books and tuition are tax deductable (an opportunity i was mentioning) and can be done in the increasing amount of leisure time pointed out in this article. Once they are trained in any sort of skill they can apply for jobs that are more steady with opportunities for overtime and higher wages. Hell if they pick something similar to their current job the company will likely help pay for the schooling (another opportunity). So even after you screw up all the opportunities given to you as a kid in highschool (to go to university and college on interest free student loans and tax incentives) there's still much more a person can do to become wealthier.

The article merely points out that the poor have an increasing amount of free time either by choice or not; it's not like they are working 3 jobs and still just scraping by.

As for the Paris Hilton comment...she wouldn't even be considered as she doesn't work and she has a ton of free time. This article points out the free time of the working poor. Obviously you are going to find exceptions to every rule and celebrities are not representative of the general population; most wealthy people do indeed work their asses off.

I didn't say wealthy people don't work for what they have generally, I'm simply pointing out that this "I hate poor people" vibe you're giving off seems a little weird given that it's pretty difficult to judge something like that. This article, for instance, and your response to it, makes the assumption that poor people have more "free time" by choice and that their increased leisure is a factor in why they are poor. But it seems like it would be worth actually trying to find some evidence to support that theory before you get behind it.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Wonderful... pull out Paris Hilton as representative of the hardworking people, many blue-collar, who manage to break into millionaire status. Talk about media-driven perspective. Come on down to the real world.

Higher income people are routinely derided by politicians, journalists, and snooty leftists in general as lucky (maybe even shady) citizens who have typically achieved their wealth through finagling on Wall Street, inheritance, or elsewhere. Look at Gephardt?s recent reference to individuals who earn good incomes as "winners in the lottery of life"... just one recent example of this mindset. It seems the basic message is that such people should be grateful the government allows them to keep some of their money.

55 percent of the households in the lowest fifth of the income spectrum today have no paid workers at all. Of the minority who do work, only about a quarter work full-time. It's ONE aspect of this equation, but an important aspect nonetheless... the very poor tend not to work, or at least work much less.

There are jobs to be had. Somewhere. It's a matter attitude... namely, motivation and discipline. You may start off small, but you can move up. The problem with the poor is not economic: it's social and behavorial. I've lived it. I've seen it first hand. The facts support it. People may drop into the poor category in their lives... maybe you're born into it like I was, or young people just starting out, or hard times, or older people retiring... but the chronic poor are mired in a subculture of general irresponsibility. IMO there is simply no GOOD reason why a person should be poor for decades.

The biggest issue is, are the opportunities present for people to take advantage of? In some cases, maybe not. In most cases, probably so. Whether or not people take advantage of this great country's opportunities is largely a choice. Decisions have consequences.

The work issue stunt brings up and the personal responsibility aspect of the poor always gives Libs and other economic dolts fits, because those two important facets poke hyoles in their grand schemes and rationale.

That was EXACTLY my point. I DON'T think opportunities to be wealthy are just floating around waiting for people with sufficient ambition to snatch them up. Or at least those opportunities aren't exactly evenly distributed. It would be helpful if you'd save your outrage about generic liberals and actually LISTEN, because then you might catch the fact that I'm not saying all rich folks are like Paris Hilton. I'm simply pointing out that Paris Hilton is extremely wealthy despite not putting forth the least bit of effort, so clearly motivation and hard work aren't the only factors when it comes to economic success.

Personal responsibility is obviously a factor, but so is actually being given a chance to make something better with your life...and in that respect I think our country could do a lot better job. I think the best solution would be to put more money (from welfare and other sources) towards actual job training and better schools, giving a better opportunity for the poor folks who don't want to stay that way. Oddly enough, this kind of idea is opposed by people on BOTH sides of the issue. Liberals seem to oppose it because it puts too much pressure on people who simply can't do a good job at life, and conservatives hate it because you guys think being poor is some kind of personal failing and that the ONLY reason anyone is poor is because they are a looser who chooses to live life that way. But call me crazy (or maybe I'm the only one here who understands economics...being conservative doesn't give you yahoos a free pass there, you know), I think trying to flatten the opportunity curve is the way to go.
 

SuperFungus

Member
Aug 23, 2006
141
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I'd say that it's been my experience that often times you make your own opportunities. If you're poor and willing to just blame it on an 'uneven distribution of opportunity' it's my feeling that regardless of the distribution of opportunity you likely would have wound up poor. It seems that alot of people are suggesting that there is some sort of de-facto caste system, but i don't see it. There are all sorts of charities and government aid programs to help people help themselves, not the least of which is education through highschool. I also think that approaching the situation with the intention to create equallity of income is counterproductive, there will always be haves and have nots. The idea is to make it possible for a have not to become a have and vise versa. It's services, training, and education that we need to offer the poor and then let them take advantage of it or not. But i don't think 'flattening the opportunity curve' is the answer either. This isn't Robin Hood, you can't really fix poverty by taking from the rich. Anyways just some thoughts.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
referring to the unemployed or under-employed as "the leisure class" is misleading not to mention highly obnoxious when you consider the research which indicates that the unemployed or under-employed are significantly less happy than the employed, and that they experience higher rates of mental and physical illhealth. these people are not typically 'enjoying' their lack of employment and time on their hands. use of the word "leisure" in this context is absurd. all the research shows that employment is an essential component of happiness. if anything, we as a society should be asking ourselves why some people are able to perform massive amounts of over-time - essentially depriving other individuals of a job. perhaps it is time to consider regulating the amount of time individuals are actually allowed to work each week (as France has done). This could be one way of forcing companies to share work among community members. Time and again private industry has shown it can never be trusted on matters that are important to the overall wellbeing and health of the community - this is definitely something that needs to be taken out of the hands of managers and put into the hands of government.