"The laws of physics won't allow CPUs to go any faster than 2GHz"

Zzzt

Member
Sep 8, 2000
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While at work (as a tech in a mom-and-pop style computer store) a customer asked how fast of a processor he could put into the new Chaintech 7KJD board I sold him. I said that the 1.4GHz chip will go in just fine, and assuming that voltages and pinout configurations don't change too dramatically, he should be good to well over 2GHz. He blew up and said in a very haughty tone that I didn't know what I was talking about and that DeVry has taught him that the laws of physics won't allow CPUs to go any faster than 2GHz. When I told him that he has been given false information, and that there are P4s running overclocked above 2GHz right now and true 2GHz chips should be available from Intel withing the next few months, he straight out called me a liar. He still bought the board. What kind of crap is DeVry teaching??????? Boy, that ticked me off!

Edit: Put quotes around the title
 

Renob

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2000
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You should have beeatch slapped him. Any one who calles me a liar is going down.
 

dave127

Senior member
Nov 26, 2000
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haha...a guy from devry came to our school one day tryin to get people to go to his school...i guess i know why they need to have people recruit...hahah their school is crap...i would never go there
 

Zzzt

Member
Sep 8, 2000
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I'm still feeling a bit hot under the collar over that one... I've met quite a few DeVry computer technology students who know next to nothing about today's computers. I'm getting the feeling that this large chain of schools isn't providing enough correct knowledge for their grads to work at a large chain of fast-food restaurants.
 

yaethom

Senior member
Jun 7, 2001
201
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Okay, this is applying to an old argument that I brought up a while ago.
some of you might recall the title: "5.6 GHz?? Impossible!!!"

Well, the commond idea of the 2 GHz and 3 GHz being the theoretical limit of processors arises from basic assumptions and calculations. I will provide these in just a moment.
For those that don't understand this all too well, you should understand what a capacitor is, a transistor, and bascially how a capacitor and transistor are used to juggle around 1's and 0's. Think of a capacitor as a storage area, and the transistor as the gate. Okay here we go:

Now, the industry standard for 1 bit is around 1,000,000 electrons. This is something they really don't mess around with, because at any smaller charge, you have a really bad signal to noise ratio. (there are trillions upon quadrillions of electrons all around) So, the other CPU detail is the fact that the difference between a "1 bit" and a "0 bit" is just a matter of voltage. (When a capacitor holds a charge, it also creates a voltage). The other standard of computers, is that the "0bit" is 0 volts, and the "1 bit" is 3 volts. This has basically not changed in a while.

Now, the idea of capacitance comes into play, capacitance is the ability for a capacitor to hold charge. This can be calculated by the equation: C= charge/voltage.
The charge of 1,000,000 electrons is something on the order of 1.6 X 10^13 Coulombs. And at 3 volts, you get the capacitance of 50 femtofarads. (femto is 1,000,000 times smaller than nano)

Now the transistor used in CPU's and in many computing parts is a Field Effect Transistor. This transistor is the common one that everyone learns about in simple solid state electronics. The channel of the FET (Field Effect Transistor) has a resistance of around 1 kilo Ohm.
Okay, here comes the big UHOH -
the value of 1 kilo Ohm arises from the equation Resistance = Resistivity X (Width of channel/ Cross sectional area)
So to get the 1 kilo Ohm, the resistivity of the materials used in the FET has not changed that much, but the width of the channl has... In the case of "1 kilo Ohm" we assume that the width of the channel is .25 microns. As you all know this is an OLD photolitographic process, and they are now commonly using .18 and even .13. For the purpose of this argument I will continue on with .25 microns. Oh and for those that want to do the calculation for .13 microns, the cross area is around 1 micron X 10 nanometers.

Finally, we wrap this all up with what is known as a RC time constant. (Resistance-Capacitance Time constant). This is just a simple matter of multiplying the resistance and capacitance together. And for those that know a little E&M physics, u will know how important that value is. This brings us to around 50 pico Seconds.

(The RC constant is a time unit that determines how long it takes to charge the capacitor at an exponential rate. So a value of 50 picoseconds means that it takes 50 picoseconds to charge the capacitor to 63 % of full capacity. HOWEVER, it doesn't mean it charges to 126% in 100 pico seconds. It's an exponential increase, that slows down dramatically, in fact it takes infinite time to reach 100% charge. (which is why recharageable batteries have a life, but that's a different story)

So, it is also a common standard that the CPU will wait for 6 time constants to get as FULL of a charge as possible in as LITTLE time as possible. If you dont wait long enough, you are open to a LOT of errors, which will make ur CPU VERY buggy, and make it extremely bad for overclocking. Since heat will amplify electron "jumping" errors. (when electrons are not where they are supposed to be). So 6 X 50 picoseconds comes to 0.3 nanoseconds. And finally if u take the frequency of that, it comes to 3 GHz.


=)


Now, this is based on many assumptions, however, keep in mind some of these are pretty constant. Like the 1 million electrons, 3 V for a bit. But then again there are many OTHERS that have changed within the past couple years, and will change dramatically in the future. As you can see, when u decrease the channel width (from .25 microns to .13 microns) it decreases the Resistance, which in turn will decrease the time constant, and finally increase the value of the theoretical limit fo 2 Ghz, or 3 Ghz, whatever u may.

If i have any errors, I'm the one that is most likely wrong. I haven't looked at the semiconductor industry in a while, so they might have changed some standards, like the 3 V for a bit standard. Although that has been there for quite a while.

Oh and FYI, you may think that u set ur CPU at 1.5 V, but its at -1.5 V and +1.5 V. This in turn comes out to an actual difference of 3.0 V.

And if I do have errors, please correct me, dont flame me.

Tom
 

Vegito

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 1999
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It's true, DeVry's law of physics says that no CPU can go over 2Ghz and no student of their would ever get a job...
 

Shagga

Diamond Member
Nov 9, 1999
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If you've got his name and/or address you can send him some documentation and/or a letter showing the release of a 2GHz CPU, and ask for an apology. Point out to him that he was wrong and unjustified in speaking the way he did to u. Or, u could just let it lie. ;)

 

Jumpem

Lifer
Sep 21, 2000
10,757
3
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My cousin dropped out of a CS program at a local college after one semester and is now taking Ikon Tech's "Tech2000" program. It certifies you in A+, Network+, CNA, and a bunch of Microsoft certs. It costs $15,000 for the six month class, and they told him that he will be making at least $40K-$45K his first job. He knows absolutely nothing about computers, but after going to these courses for three weeks he thinks he knows everything about them.

Argh, had to rant....

What can someone realistically expect to make with zero real world knowledge/experience but a bunch of certifications?
 

BrutalJoeJoe

Member
Jul 30, 2000
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Certifications can prolly get him a first job but when they see what hi can(t) do his recomendations might not bee as good...
 

TravisBickle

Platinum Member
Dec 3, 2000
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gotta love the sales spiel huh. any nincompoop can whip out certificates like that, what counts is showing you took care of problems in the real world.
 

Jumpem

Lifer
Sep 21, 2000
10,757
3
81
Actually, they told him he'd be a Network Admin/Engineer making $46K. I think they just pulled that from where the sun doesn't shine though. He really thinks that $40K is the bare minimum that he'll be getting. Why after six months would someone startout earning relatively close to what a CS graduate would.

Oh yeah; Zzzt, sorry I'm crapping in your thread a little.
 

mindiris

Senior member
Oct 23, 1999
483
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Heh, the laws of physics said there would be many "fundamental" limits.

So far, much like the sound "barrier", these limits are just us being too lazy or ignorant to look for workarounds. Physics as the universe determines doesn't change (I'm sure I might be wrong :) ), it's our interpretation of it that changes. Speed of light. Warp 9. Engage!

One comment about that DeVry guy, He ain't gonna last long in the computer industry if he doesn't update his ancient knowledge fast. A lot of knowledge is a good thing, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing to a puny mind :D
 

Wah

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,799
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Zzzt... we all know that you are right, and he will find out soon enough that his education is worthless. Who wins here? :)
 

KrispyKremer

Senior member
Apr 2, 2000
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Hmm, there may be some inconsistency between this so-called limits of physics and Moore's Law.

Over the years, any roadblock has been nothing more than a temporary bump. With any "limits", we will find a way around them.

Intel has already commented they expect to have a 10GHz cpu out by 2005, and by the end of next year we'll see 4GHz+.
 

Noriaki

Lifer
Jun 3, 2000
13,640
1
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Tell him to carefully read the spec sheet on a Pentium4.

The 1.3Ghz P4 has a 2.6Ghz ALU. And a 1.8Ghz has a 3.6Ghz ALU.

It is not using a DDR style clock, it is actually a 2.6/3.6GHz clock.
 

Rectalfier

Golden Member
Nov 21, 1999
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Someone with just schooling and certifications would make around $18,000-$30,000(if lucky) in Calgary. I have three years experience with MCSE and I am valued around $40,000-$60,000. I do Tier 2 desktop support.

And good luck becoming a Network Admin, most companies wouldn't consider you untill you have 4 years Network Admin experience. No company would trust a new graduate to mess with their mission critical servers.
 

rommel

Banned
Jan 23, 2001
1,579
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uh i would just like to say way ta go tom......lol...since no one else cared to comment on your lecture...i found it very interesting and pretty much completly over my head...but interesting none the less....lol
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
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<< &quot;The laws of physics won't allow CPUs to go any faster than 2GHz&quot; >>

Well, I guess we may as well just give up then.
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,545
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I am not trying to protect Devry.

But a person, who calls some else liar in the face about an issue like this, is not necessarily Devry problem.
 

tweakmm

Lifer
May 28, 2001
18,436
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Nice info there tom. Albeit, most of it went right over my head
::information on microprossesors zooms over mike's head::
I still found it very interesting
Good job. :D
 

yaethom

Senior member
Jun 7, 2001
201
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heh, thx, i was waiting for a reply towards my length post.... that took work! =)

Tom
 

Rectalfier

Golden Member
Nov 21, 1999
1,589
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Noriaki

Good to see another Calgarian! :)

I work at Tri-Ocean Engineering. It's located in the oldest skyscraper in Calgary. It's a really good place to work. Where do you work? (Curious)