The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[Cerpin Taxt]

How would you know, being a chief ignoramus yourself? :whiste:

You know, you have an opportunity to learn something here, but your embarrassment is only going to be magnified by silly comments like this one.

Your logic puzzle only proves what basic logic can define.

It isn't a "puzzle." It's a proof. Perhaps it just seems a "puzzle" to angsty adolescents that would like to think of themselves as intelligent.

Flatlanders can't prove the existence of cubes, either. To them they all look like squares.

That's great, but what's it got to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Can`t you just feel the Love in this thread??? I mean gee whiz!!

 

[realibrad]

Can`t you just feel the Love in this thread??? I mean gee whiz!!

Yeah, from about post 400 on I really started to feel the love.

 

[Omar F1]

That's because the "basic cell" does not appear to be created or designed. Your ignorance and incredulity of evolution is not evidence that it is untrue.

Just for once you could say that it's still a mysterious and unidentified subject.

Again and again, can't you compare that basic cell to everything that existed afterward, take a look over the whole picture; on land, air and deep under the sea.
Obviously, both of us have a totally different kind of glasses to see through it.

Nothing in science is 100% certain. Having said that, evolution is as certain as ANYTHING else in science. More certain than gravity, in fact.

That is a point of agreement, and btw I'm not completely denying the whole evolution process either, except that I've a major and critical disagreements and would especially insist that the human was created as a human from the start in the best possible shape, while striking a great balance in his abilities, in comparison to everything else that did exist.

BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY EVIDENCE.

Well, it seems that scientists are willing to spend their lives while researching, analyzing, then presenting their hypothesis and theories about the life creation since billions of years ago. Or else, someone had spent 17-years studying a skeleton that considered to be dead since four-million-years ago.
However, and strangely enough, it looks like nobody of them is willing to investigate the truth and credibility about what might be considered a religious fiction. For example, the story of an infant which was born miraculously only since 2015-years ago. He spoke clearly while he was still infant; had the ability to cure the diseased, resurrect the dead and possessed some knowledge of the unseen. For which, it wasn't so long until he was considered a god by some people and have been worshipped ever since then.

I wonder, why such a claim wouldn't be investigated with same level of care and attention.

You're just arguing from your own incredulity. "I can't imagine how this could've happened without a magical god, so therefore there must be a magical god."

Your argument says more about your own ignorance than it does any putative deity.

In another way, the theory doesn't provide reasonable explanation yet over some aspects of life creation.

Evolution does not predict that all organisms will develop identical eyes. In fact it rather predicts that they will develop eyes suited to their environments, and guess what we observe?

I thought it's either land, sea, air, or otherwise a hyper environment that the life was originated from. Guess how many kinds we do currently have of each and every organism category out there. Diversity for the sake of diversity, Mother Nature?
And that brings back my previous, and such a key argument point, why it was only one fully-intelligent we've observed from such diversity and long evolution process.
Please, just look over all the wars, destruction and misery the human has brought upon both, himself and the environment, and imagine for a second how it would be if we lived alongside another similarly intelligent species.
Just a lucky outcome of that evolution process, not a slightest hint of intentional design whatsoever?


Besides, looking back into circumstances surrounding the life of primitive humans, would you please explain why we never adapted an ability to fly? It was a must feature I guess; the quick ability to look for food and water, it was a much needed ability to save them torturous travel times.
How about a Wolverine-like weapon to defend themselves against Dinosaurs?
And since those who settled and lived nearby a sea since very long time, but still can't swim any better than those who been around the desert since Abraham days. Wasn't fishing part of their daily life.
Speaking of deserts, would that theory also explain why camels has that incredible ability to survive thirst for weeks, while Bedouin almost has the same exact enduring ability against thirst, compared to those who settled in the far northern regions around rivers.

Some serious consideration and thoughtful look is needed beside scientific mindset, whether now or long after, I think it's worth it.

 

[Omar F1]

Even if there's a type of Design, that doesn't mean there's a Designer. It just means there's symmetry.

Einstein — 'Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.'

 

[Moonbeam]

It looks like he is not factoring in time dilation. Light and spacetime are tricky bastards.

It seems to me that if one light beam overtakes another going in the same direction at the speed of light there would be no such thing as time and you would see the entire universe and it's entire history in total from any point in space. I would see light traveling from a distant star a million years ago and the light that left it today.

If you have two points in space separated by distance d and two beams of light leaving one for the other point ad t1 and t2, they have to arrive at t3 and t4 because the velocity of light between two points is k.

 

[Omar F1]

I believe evolution really is 100% certain. Why? Because it is how it works. It also takes into account why somethings don't and why we have some terrible diseases/genetic disorders out there.

And why didn't some of these things happen to all? That's the randomness of evolution. Why are our chemoreceptors fairly weak compared to other species? A shark can sense a drop of blood from over a mile away. We require massive pollution in order to get that kind of range. There are some species that have eyes that put ours to shame. There are some species that can use echolocation that make eyes more or less unnecessary (some species don't even have eyes). Even the age argument is fairly mediocre. Until modern science, age wasn't that long. And even with modern science we're still only averaging 84 or so in the country with the highest life expectancy. There are a lot of species out there that live longer than us and don't require any interventions to do so (except maybe avoiding humans). There are sturgeon and whales that can hit 100+ years, clams and tortoises that can live over 200 years and there's even a jellyfish that, for all intents and purposes, is immortal.

You've valid points.

But I believe, that if we did posses such empowered abilities then I guess our life might rather been more chaotic than it's right now.
Imagine if we would have to search behind the clouds, mountains peaks or deep at the bottom of some ocean in order to find escaped criminal.

Wouldn't some agree that our overall shape and various abilities suits us well and resemble quite a great balance, in comparison to the rest.


As for the age point, and only for your information, Islamic scripture talks about 950-years of Noah's age where he kept preaching his own people. So his overall age was more than that.

 

[realibrad]

It seems to me that if one light beam overtakes another going in the same direction at the speed of light there would be no such thing as time and you would see the entire universe and it's entire history in total from any point in space. I would see light traveling from a distant star a million years ago and the light that left it today.

If you have two points in space separated by distance d and two beams of light leaving one for the other point ad t1 and t2, they have to arrive at t3 and t4 because the velocity of light between two points is k.

There is no velocity between the two points. Unless you are talking about approach velocity, and then even that would be c not k right?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Just for once you could say that it's still a mysterious and unidentified subject.

I go out of my way not to say false things. You should try it sometime.

Again and again, can't you compare that basic cell to everything that existed afterward, take a look over the whole picture; on land, air and deep under the sea.
Obviously, both of us have a totally different kind of glasses to see through it.

Yes, my glasses have been cleaned by education and knowledge instead of fogged by asinine religious dogma.

That is a point of agreement, and btw I'm not completely denying the whole evolution process either, except that I've a major and critical disagreements and would especially insist that the human was created as a human from the start in the best possible shape, while striking a great balance in his abilities, in comparison to everything else that did exist.

You don't get to choose "how much" evolution you believe in. Biological organisms are either related through common ancestry or they aren't. Your suggestion is as ridiculous as saying that you believe in grandparents but not cousins.

Well, it seems that scientists are willing to spend their lives while researching, analyzing, then presenting their hypothesis and theories about the life creation since billions of years ago. Or else, someone had spent 17-years studying a skeleton that considered to be dead since four-million-years ago.
However, and strangely enough, it looks like nobody of them is willing to investigate the truth and credibility about what might be considered a religious fiction.

Science doesn't investigate "magic" or "miracles." If your proposed explanation relies on anything supernatural, it cannot be scientifically investigated. Period. You would do well to educate yourself on the particulars of the scientific method.

For example, the story of an infant which was born miraculously only since 2015-years ago. He spoke clearly while he was still infant; had the ability to cure the diseased, resurrect the dead and possessed some knowledge of the unseen. For which, it wasn't so long until he was considered a god by some people and have been worshipped ever since then.

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

I wonder, why such a claim wouldn't be investigated with same level of care and attention.

This is how I know that you don't know shit about science and how it works.

In another way, the theory doesn't provide reasonable explanation yet over some aspects of life creation.

You, in your spectacular ignorance, are not one to judge what explanations are reasonable.

I thought it's either land, sea, air, or otherwise a hyper environment that the life was originated from.

I'm not talking about any origin of life. What origin?

Guess how many kinds we do currently have of each and every organism category out there.

What the fuck is a "kind"?

Diversity for the sake of diversity, Mother Nature?
And that brings back my previous, and such a key argument point, why it was only one fully-intelligent we've observed from such diversity and long evolution process.
Please, just look over all the wars, destruction and misery the human has brought upon both, himself and the environment, and imagine for a second how it would be if we lived alongside another similarly intelligent species.
Just a lucky outcome of that evolution process, not a slightest hint of intentional design whatsoever?

What is "intelligent design"? Is there anything that is NOT "intelligent design"? What would something that is not "intelligently designed" look like? How would you know?

Besides, looking back into circumstances surrounding the life of primitive humans, would you please explain why we never adapted an ability to fly?

Why the fuck should we? We clearly didn't need it to survive. C'mon man THINK a little, please. Fuck.

It was a must feature I guess; the quick ability to look for food and water, it was a much needed ability to save them torturous travel times.
How about a Wolverine-like weapon to defend themselves against Dinosaurs?
And since those who settled and lived nearby a sea since very long time, but still can't swim any better than those who been around the desert since Abraham days. Wasn't fishing part of their daily life.
Speaking of deserts, would that theory also explain why camels has that incredible ability to survive thirst for weeks, while Bedouin almost has the same exact enduring ability against thirst, compared to those who settled in the far northern regions around rivers.

Some serious consideration and thoughtful look is needed beside scientific mindset, whether now or long after, I think it's worth it.

Look man, I have very little patience for this kind of ignorance. The information is out there. It's not secret. It's not complicated. It's up to you to educate yourself. Get started, you're way behind.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally Posted by Cerpin Taxt
That's because the "basic cell" does not appear to be created or designed. Your ignorance and incredulity of evolution is not evidence that it is untrue.

so what does the appearance of creation look like or appear to be?? Would you actually know if something like a cell appeared to be created?
Or is this just more of your word play??

 

[Moonbeam]

There is no velocity between the two points. Unless you are talking about approach velocity, and then even that would be c not k right?

C is a constant in a vacuum. The distance between p1 and p2 remains fixed. Therefore, if t1 is different than t2, that difference will reappear between t3 and t4. This is really just a classical problem, not a relativistic one.

You can't catch a car that left earlier at 100 mph if the car you go after it in can itself only go 100mph. This does not change at a car or a photon's maximum speed.

A light beam traveling from p1 to p2 passing a light beam traveling from p2 to p1 both leaving at t1 will be invisible at their destinations until they arrive, but they will only pass each other at the speed of light. Here we have changed the relative positions of observation from p1 and p2 to p3, the mid point where the beams pass each other. This is when relativity becomes involved.

 

[bshole]

Science doesn't investigate "magic" or "miracles." If your proposed explanation relies on anything supernatural, it cannot be scientifically instated. Period. You would do well to educate yourself on the particulars of the scientific method.

I can never accept the concept of a God that has always existed and I will never accept the concept of matter/energy as always existing. It just doesn't compute for me. All the senses that I have, all the input I have ever received indicates that everything has a beginning. My mind can not deal with the concept of something always existing without beginning or end. Scientists talk about events happening 20 billion years ago or so. That is nothing. What happened 100 googleplus years ago? In the face of infinity, billions of years are less than seconds. It freaks me out thinking about eternal existence without a beginning. The only thing weirder and less acceptable would be an actual beginning to everything. That makes even less sense.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

so what does the appearance of creation look like or appear to be??

I haven't the first foggiest fucking idea.

Would you actually know if something like a cell appeared to be created?

Nope. That's the problem. Nobody has any fucking idea.

Or is this just more of your word play??

Just shut the fuck up.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I can never accept the concept of a God that has always existed and I will never accept the concept of matter/energy as always existing. It just doesn't compute for me.

Wow, it's not every day that you meet someone that rejects the FIRST FUCKING LAW OF FUCKING THERMODYNAMICS.

All the senses that I have, all the input I have ever received indicates that everything has a beginning. My mind can not deal with the concept of something always existing without beginning or end.

Infinity is not intuitive, but your failure to rationalize the consequences of infinity is not a falsification of those consequences

Scientists talk about events happening 20 billion years ago or so. That is nothing. What happened 100 googleplus years ago? In the face of infinity, billions of years are less than seconds. It freaks me out thinking about eternal existence without a beginning.

Well get a fucking grip, man. This is the universe you inhabit. Best learn to deal.

The only thing weirder and less acceptable would be an actual beginning to everything. That makes even less sense.

Frankly a "beginning of everything" is meaningless because is impossible to observe nothingness.

 

[bshole]

In the realm of philosophy, science has had its greatest contribution. It has proven beyond all doubt, it has demonstrated as FACT that the entirety of human existence is absolutely pointless and with no meaning whatsoever. Fifty billion years from now, not the slightest remnant of this universe will exist.

Science has proven as fact that in the long run science is pointless. The only standard that matters is human happiness. The society that has the highest percentage of individuals that die happy is the best. I grew up as a missionary kid. By FAR the happiest civilizations I have ever witnessed are the stone age hunter-gatherer tribes living in the Amazon forests. Those ignorant savages were FAR FAR FAR happier than Americans.

Science gives us much but it also takes much. It removes all purpose for existence and eliminates false hope. I was a happier person when I had false hope. When I lost my religion I also lost any chance of happiness. I wish I had died in my ignorance. I now have only to wait for my purposeless existence to end with fear and depression as my constant companions.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

In the realm of philosophy, science has had its greatest contribution. It has proven beyond all doubt, it has demonstrated as FACT that the entirety of human existence is absolutely pointless and with no meaning whatsoever.

It has demonstrated no such thing. Wherever did you get such a ridiculous idea?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally Posted by Cerpin Taxt
That's because the "basic cell" does not appear to be created or designed. Your ignorance and incredulity of evolution is not evidence that it is untrue.

Just one tiny question....did you not say this?

If you did say this we are curious how you know?? or are you using other people`s words due to your lack of knowledge?

 

[Moonbeam]

In the realm of philosophy, science has had its greatest contribution. It has proven beyond all doubt, it has demonstrated as FACT that the entirety of human existence is absolutely pointless and with no meaning whatsoever. Fifty billion years from now, not the slightest remnant of this universe will exist.

Science has proven as fact that in the long run science is pointless. The only standard that matters is human happiness. The society that has the highest percentage of individuals that die happy is the best. I grew up as a missionary kid. By FAR the happiest civilizations I have ever witnessed are the stone age hunter-gatherer tribes living in the Amazon forests. Those ignorant savages were FAR FAR FAR happier than Americans.

Science gives us much but it also takes much. It removes all purpose for existence and eliminates false hope. I was a happier person when I had false hope. When I lost my religion I also lost any chance of happiness. I wish I had died in my ignorance. I now have only to wait for my purposeless existence to end with fear and depression as my constant companions.

My dear dear man, you make tears run down my face. I know exactly this feeling. Everything is absolutely and completely and totally without meaning and I mean everything. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Everything, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! Somewhere in here I smell a strawberry, Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Just one tiny question....did you not say this?

If you did say this we are curious how you know?? or are you using other people`s words due to your lack of knowledge?

The cell does not appear to be designed because nobody can tell anyone what a designed cell does or does not look like.

Holy fucking shit, is this kindergarten? Are you people actual adults?

 

[bshole]

It has demonstrated no such thing. Wherever did you get such a ridiculous idea?

You must be kidding. Every prominent atheist I know avers this fact. Life (on a cosmic scale) is utterly pointless. If you think there is a point or meaning I surely would like to hear it. Without religion and false hope, how could there be a point?

Self awareness and intelligence is a curse. It was an abomination thrust upon us through evolution. No species on earth experiences anything approaching the suffering that man experiences.

Yes. Human existence is utterly futile (written by an extremely "depressed" person). I often find it humorous how people say that suicide is permanent solution to "temporary problem" when life itself is merely temporary. Everything you do, every objective you attempt to accomplish, absolutely everything you do in life will mean nothing when you die. This is the joke of life. You spend your entire life setting all of these arbitrary goals and objectives to achieve, and yet it means nothing. Most humans simply survive to survive, which is meaningless in itself. Why do you survive to survive? What is the point of simply continuing to exist for the sake of the continuation of existence when you are simply going to perish anyway?

Most humans do not think about these things, because it leads them to be depressed. They would rather go on living in their elaborate delusions that they're life actually means something, then face the crippling reality that everything, and I mean everything, you do is utterly pointless. You will die. You will be forgotten. In a hundred, or even a thousand years of time, there will likely not even be a trace that you ever existed.

Furthermore, there is no God. "God" is a copout people use because they don't want to face the inherent futility of the human existential condition. They reason that even if they can't find the reason behind existence, there is some mystical being that truly knows the reason, and that can endow the universe with some supernaturally ascribed purpose. This is pure delusion. There is no evidence of any supernatural purpose. People cling to this because they simply do not want to face the harsh reality of the inherent futility and absurdity of the human condition.

So, in conclusion, there is no meaning to existence, everything you do is a mere exercise in futility, life is utterly pointless, there is no God, and in a thousand years time you will be completely forgotten and all of your attempts to achieve anything will be erased. Have a nice day.

We are born, we grow, we learn, we work, and we die. All for nothing. Yes, some people are remembered longer than others, some more well known, but when it comes down to the point, are we really better than anyone else? No. Are we smarter than other species (or people) because we form more complex thoughts? No.

And does it really matter when we classify everything down to religious, political, scientific, or social classes? No.

Why?
Life is meaningless.

So what if you know a language (or more), or you've 'created' something new, or if you've found the cure to cancer.
Generation come an go, and the 'memory' won't last forever. Eventually everything will come to an end, and the thousands, million, billions or more years of existence, what does any life mean!?
Nothing.

Many go claiming that there is a divine ruler(s) which give them purpose, but think about it, there are SO many different religions, and bone have been proven to be 100% truthful.

The Bible, for instance, dates the creation of the universe only a few thousand years, while Scientology claims it is over 4 billion years ago that this happened. Nothing has really shown proof.

Same with humans. What proof I there that we have meaning?

None.

I myself don't have a religion, but know much about many of them, as well as science, but not once have I seen proof, or even a slight chance sign that we have purpose.

Life. Is. Pointless.

This quote from Steven Weinberg sums it up. “The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless” The only meaning or purpose in life is subjective, it's not something that can be found through a detailed and objective study of nature. When people say they have meaning and purpose in their lives, it may be subjectively true to them, but that shouldn't be confused with true objective meaning.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-human-existence-pointless

 

[Moonbeam]

Oh mighty God how I loved you, how I shown in the light of your love. Oh might God how I could bear up with your help, the terrible suffering of this world. How happy and light my life when I knew you would make everything right, and how black the nights when you died. When you left all that I valued was taken, the joy that I felt in the certain knowledge that you loved me infinitely. Your love went dark and my life went black.

 

[Moonbeam]

bshole: You must be kidding. Every prominent atheist I know avers this fact. Life (on a cosmic scale) is utterly pointless. If you think there is a point or meaning I surely would like to hear it. Without religion and false hope, how could there be a point?

Self awareness and intelligence is a curse. It was an abomination thrust upon us through evolution. No species on earth experiences anything approaching the suffering that man experiences.


I think you made your point. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I found it meaningless. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[WelshBloke]

You must be kidding. Every prominent atheist I know avers this fact. Life (on a cosmic scale) is utterly pointless. If you think there is a point or meaning I surely would like to hear it. Without religion and false hope, how could there be a point?



http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-human-existence-pointless

I think that your mistaking a disbelief in a grand plan for everything set out by a conscious being for a disbelief in any purpose.

I have a family I want to keep safe and well looked after, I have friends that I like to share time with, theres a ton of things that I don't know about that I want to find out about, there's a ton of things that I haven't done that I want to do...

 

[sandorski]

Whether we have "purpose" or not is moot. We have Life and the choice(most of us anyway) to enjoy it or not. I choose to enjoy it as much as is possible, regardless if it is pointless or not.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You must be kidding. Every prominent atheist I know avers this fact.

So what? You said "science" had "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" these things that you're lamenting. Now, you're saying it's atheists. You do realize that science and atheism are not the same thing, right?

Life (on a cosmic scale) is utterly pointless. If you think there is a point or meaning I surely would like to hear it. Without religion and false hope, how could there be a point?

Your problem is that you (and many others, atheists included) have made a category error in supposing that meaning should be objective. The meaning and purpose of your life is yours to make. Neither atheism, nor science, nor anyone else has any say in that matter.

Self awareness and intelligence is a curse. It was an abomination thrust upon us through evolution. No species on earth experiences anything approaching the suffering that man experiences.

Speak for your damn self, and no atheist you can quote speaks for me.