The Islamic Community Policing Itself

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
There seems to be a common theme in most of the theads about terrorism lately, one that is almost repeated word for word whenever the topic of Islamic terrorism comes up. The concept is that, while the vast majority of Muslims are not extremists, radicals, or terrorists, we can still blame them because they aren't cleaning their own house. At first I could kind of see the point, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder what exactly it is we expect Muslims to DO.

Think about it, there are how many billions of Muslims all over the world? They come from different backgrounds, social classes, countries, etc. Like almost any other religion I can think of, members are as varied as any other group of people in the world. And yet all members of the religion apparently should bear responsibility for the actions of anyone who practices their religion. Not only that, but it is their duty to take care of the bad elements in their religion, or we're going to do it for them...and the insinuation is that it would be in their best interest if we didn't do that...

But again, what exactly do we expect from them? If you listen closely, and don't watch Fox News, you'll probably hear Muslim group after Muslim group speaking out against the extremist elements of their religion, especially after attacks. Muslim leaders in France have issued a religious edict against the rioting and violence there. I suspect if you ask the next Muslim you run into (especially if you live in the US), you'll find that they probably dislike Osama bin Laden even more than you do. What else do we expect from them? Religion is one of those funny things where you can proclaim whatever the hell you want. Osama bin Laden is not a Muslim by any stretch of the defintion of what makes someone a good Muslim, but it's a religion, Osama can call himself a Muslim if he wants. He could just as easially call himself a Christian, or a Buddhist (although he'd find a lot less justification for killing his enemies that way). How exactly would Christians or Buddhists stop him? They could say that he doesn't represent their mainstream views...which is mostly what Muslim groups are already doing.

Maybe it's just a problem in that we're always talking about abstractions. It's easy to say that "Muslims" should "police themselves", because it doesn't really mean anything. But I think it's harder to tell Omar the deli owner that it is his personal fault that the 9/11 hijackers killed a bunch of Americans. Or maybe I'm missing something here...
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
I feel that the reason that so many expect groups to police up after themselves is because it is (for no real reason) an overly sensitive issue. Muslims are quite fervent at times about their beliefs. Frequently we non-Muslims are told that the Western way is "Insensitive" and "Evil" every time a Western style approach is even mentioned.

This seems much like race relations in the United States. If you attempt to say anything to a group of people outside of the group that you are placed in (sometimes arbitrarliy)you are immediately labeled and run out of town on a rail. This is despite any facts or hard evidence to the fact of whether or not your original argument has any validity in the first place. You are an "outsider" and anything that you say is not good, seems to be the opinion of the day. Therefore I leave it to those who claim to be "in the know" of whatever group is having these discussions, whether it is race, religion, Democrats or Republicans.
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
1,717
0
0
Let me take a wild shot here...what would you (or at least most self-professed moderate non-partisans) like John McCain or Colin Powell to do with the Republican Party? What is their culpability in belonging to a party that does not reign in its extremist elements? In your opinion are they doing enough to promote the moderate views in the Republican Party? If you think not, would you consider yourself justified in asking them to do so?

I guess you could easily refute these questions with a non sequitur. But if you understand who I am posing these questions of, you will understand the relevance to your post about Muslims policing themselves. BTW, I disagree that the rest of the world should police the Muslims. It just can't be done. Only muslims can characterize the relationship (or the lack thereof) between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. But this much is certain - non-muslims are NOT the cause of Islamic terrorism. By even the barest of standards, it should be obvious who has to take the stronger step towards containing Islamic fundamentalism. You don't want the non-muslim world to do it. You don't want the muslim world to do it. Who TF is going to do it? The terrorists themselves? :confused:

EDIT: That thingie about extremist elements goes the other way too for any incidental right-wingers that think Muslims should not be called upon to fight internally against Islamic fundamentalism. I just couldn't think of a moderate Democrat for a counter-example, sorry :eek:

And Maluckey, you hit the nail on the head with the race relations comparision. Whatever ills are suffered by the black community can be best dealt with only by reformers within that community. At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I think the Caucasians have done a fantastic job of fighting the cancer of White Supremacy from within the community. Every community has its flaws - the cure has to come from within.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: athithi
Let me take a wild shot here...what would you (or at least most self-professed moderate non-partisans) like John McCain or Colin Powell to do with the Republican Party? What is their culpability in beloging to a party that does not reign in its extremist elements? In your opinion are they doing enough to promote the moderate views in the Republican Party? If you think not, would you consider yourself justified in asking them to do so?

I guess you could easily refute these questions with a non sequitur. But if you understand who I am posing these questions of, you will understand the relevance to your post about Muslims policing themselves. BTW, I disagree that the rest of the world should police the Muslims. It just can't be done. Only muslims can characterize the relationship (or the lack thereof) between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. But this much is certain - non-muslims are NOT the cause of Islamic terrorism. By even the barest of standards, it should be obvious who has to take the stronger step towards containing Islamic fundamentalism. You don't want the non-muslim world to do it. You don't want the muslim world to do it. Who TF is going to do it? The terrorists themselves? :confused:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you didn't answer my question. "Stronger steps"? What stronger steps? I agree that we have little chance of provoking a fundamental (no pun intended) change within radical elements of the Muslim community...but how exactly are the moderate elements supposed to do it?

You use the analogy of John McCain or other moderate Republicans taking back control of the Republican party from the far right. I would certainly like that, and on some level I dislike McCain and his allies for not having the balls to do what they know is the right thing to do. But they actually have the ability to bring about change built into the very structure of their party and our government. If they can get enough popular support in the party, they can simply tell Bush and his type to sit down a shut up. But here's the thing, far righties can still call themselves Republicans...and there is nothing John McCain or anyone else can do about it, that seems like a more appropriate analogy.

The issue with Islam isn't that the bad guys are in control and need to be ousted. There is no real control, the only real control is how the balance of Muslims behave. And all fearmongering aside, the vast majority are just fine. But there are still a rather large number of extremists who call themselves Muslims. It's religion, that's all it takes to "be Muslim"...or even to be a religious leader. How do you stop THAT? Imagine we're not talking about John McCain shifting official Republican policy towards the center, but instead John McCain attempting to somehow stop a bunch of people calling themselves Republicans and blowing up random Democrats.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: athithi
...
And Maluckey, you hit the nail on the head with the race relations comparision. Whatever ills are suffered by the black community can be best dealt with only by reformers within that community. At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I think the Caucasians have done a fantastic job of fighting the cancer of White Supremacy from within the community. Every community has its flaws - the cure has to come from within.

Ah, and interesting comparison. But if you look at history, that change came about because moderate white people had the balance of political power. We were able to write laws, get supreme court decisions, and enforce them when necessary. We have a system in place that allowed up to do all these things. A religion does not.
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you didn't answer my question. "Stronger steps"? What stronger steps? I agree that we have little chance of provoking a fundamental (no pun intended) change within radical elements of the Muslim community...but how exactly are the moderate elements supposed to do it?

You use the analogy of John McCain or other moderate Republicans taking back control of the Republican party from the far right. I would certainly like that, and on some level I dislike McCain and his allies for not having the balls to do what they know is the right thing to do. But they actually have the ability to bring about change built into the very structure of their party and our government. If they can get enough popular support in the party, they can simply tell Bush and his type to sit down a shut up. But here's the thing, far righties can still call themselves Republicans...and there is nothing John McCain or anyone else can do about it, that seems like a more appropriate analogy.

The issue with Islam isn't that the bad guys are in control and need to be ousted. There is no real control, the only real control is how the balance of Muslims behave. And all fearmongering aside, the vast majority are just fine. But there are still a rather large number of extremists who call themselves Muslims. It's religion, that's all it takes to "be Muslim"...or even to be a religious leader. How do you stop THAT? Imagine we're not talking about John McCain shifting official Republican policy towards the center, but instead John McCain attempting to somehow stop a bunch of people calling themselves Republicans and blowing up random Democrats.

I actually gave an example of how Islam could contain the extremists that permeate it in my thread about the Swaminarayan temple in New Delhi. But to understand my suggestion, you have to understand that there is no delineating point beyond which Muslims become extremists. If you have followed some of the stories, particularly with regards to the London bombers, you would've seen that the people closest to these terrorists were in no way extremist. They were ordinary, average people like you and me. And yet...terrorists sprouted amidst them!

It is a fallacy to think that somewhere in Islam there is a border beyond which fundamentalists start showing up. These people infest muslim communities at several levels - from the most moderate to the most extremist. Just to make myself clear, I am not suggesting that everyday muslims suddenly turn extremist. Obviously there has to some catalyst outside the scope of moderate muslims that affect these individuals. That catalyst has to be neutralized. That catalyst is directly related to the dogmatic, inflexible practice of religious scripture. When does an otherwise rational human mind deprave itself? Only in the face of unquestionable evidence. It's what gives goose-bumps to religious people all over the world. It comes from static text in a book. Depending on the tongues that speak it and the ears that hear it, it can either be the saving grace of mankind or the very disease that has come to destroy it. If you can introduce reform in Islam, you will allow the right people to speak the word of Allah. This is not about practitioners paying lip-service to religious harmony. This is about religious promoters herding the sheep in the right direction. Todays leaders lead by consensus. They take people where they want to go. If enough people stand up and yell that they want to go towards non-violence. the leaders will shepherd them there. They have no other choice. But the people today want to debate whether Islamic suicide bombers have a genuine grievance. The thought process that leads to that debate has to change. No matter how many innocents on the other side are killed, it never compensates for the losses you have suffered. It does not teach your enemies any lessons. Oh wait! Somebody said it better - "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind".
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: athithi
...
And Maluckey, you hit the nail on the head with the race relations comparision. Whatever ills are suffered by the black community can be best dealt with only by reformers within that community. At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I think the Caucasians have done a fantastic job of fighting the cancer of White Supremacy from within the community. Every community has its flaws - the cure has to come from within.

Ah, and interesting comparison. But if you look at history, that change came about because moderate white people had the balance of political power. We were able to write laws, get supreme court decisions, and enforce them when necessary. We have a system in place that allowed up to do all these things. A religion does not.

Exactly. And guess who needs to understand that? That law borne of logic (the "system") supercedes the law borne of sentiments (the "religion")...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: athithi
...
And Maluckey, you hit the nail on the head with the race relations comparision. Whatever ills are suffered by the black community can be best dealt with only by reformers within that community. At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I think the Caucasians have done a fantastic job of fighting the cancer of White Supremacy from within the community. Every community has its flaws - the cure has to come from within.

Ah, and interesting comparison. But if you look at history, that change came about because moderate white people had the balance of political power. We were able to write laws, get supreme court decisions, and enforce them when necessary. We have a system in place that allowed up to do all these things. A religion does not.

Exactly. And guess who needs to understand that? That law borne of logic (the "system") supercedes the law borne of sentiments (the "religion")...

Hmm...that actually brings up an interesting point. Real religious reform for other religions came about at about the same time that legal systems and countries began placing something above religious belief. Perhaps those two events are simply related, two expressions of the same basic ideal, but I wonder if the loss of that kind of control led to the moderating of other religions. Islam is different from Christianity, for example, in that a lot of the majority Muslim countries are religious dictatorships or otherwise led mostly by religious ideals. Might that be the defining factor? Would Saudi Arabia produce so many terrorists if it was a free, democratic country? Might the answer lie not in blaming Muslims, but in blaming the extremist governments?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: Rainsford

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you didn't answer my question. "Stronger steps"? What stronger steps? I agree that we have little chance of provoking a fundamental (no pun intended) change within radical elements of the Muslim community...but how exactly are the moderate elements supposed to do it?

You use the analogy of John McCain or other moderate Republicans taking back control of the Republican party from the far right. I would certainly like that, and on some level I dislike McCain and his allies for not having the balls to do what they know is the right thing to do. But they actually have the ability to bring about change built into the very structure of their party and our government. If they can get enough popular support in the party, they can simply tell Bush and his type to sit down a shut up. But here's the thing, far righties can still call themselves Republicans...and there is nothing John McCain or anyone else can do about it, that seems like a more appropriate analogy.

The issue with Islam isn't that the bad guys are in control and need to be ousted. There is no real control, the only real control is how the balance of Muslims behave. And all fearmongering aside, the vast majority are just fine. But there are still a rather large number of extremists who call themselves Muslims. It's religion, that's all it takes to "be Muslim"...or even to be a religious leader. How do you stop THAT? Imagine we're not talking about John McCain shifting official Republican policy towards the center, but instead John McCain attempting to somehow stop a bunch of people calling themselves Republicans and blowing up random Democrats.

I actually gave an example of how Islam could contain the extremists that permeate it in my thread about the Swaminarayan temple in New Delhi. But to understand my suggestion, you have to understand that there is no delineating point beyond which Muslims become extremists. If you have followed some of the stories, particularly with regards to the London bombers, you would've seen that the people closest to these terrorists were in no way extremist. They were ordinary, average people like you and me. And yet...terrorists sprouted amidst them!

It is a fallacy to think that somewhere in Islam there is a border beyond which fundamentalists start showing up. These people infest muslim communities at several levels - from the most moderate to the most extremist. Just to make myself clear, I am not suggesting that everyday muslims suddenly turn extremist. Obviously there has to some catalyst outside the scope of moderate muslims that affect these individuals. That catalyst has to be neutralized. That catalyst is directly related to the dogmatic, inflexible practice of religious scripture. When does an otherwise rational human mind deprave itself? Only in the face of unquestionable evidence. It's what gives goose-bumps to religious people all over the world. It comes from static text in a book. Depending on the tongues that speak it and the ears that hear it, it can either be the saving grace of mankind or the very disease that has come to destroy it. If you can introduce reform in Islam, you will allow the right people to speak the word of Allah. This is not about practitioners paying lip-service to religious harmony. This is about religious promoters herding the sheep in the right direction. Todays leaders lead by consensus. They take people where they want to go. If enough people stand up and yell that they want to go towards non-violence. the leaders will shepherd them there. They have no other choice. But the people today want to debate whether Islamic suicide bombers have a genuine grievance. The thought process that leads to that debate has to change. No matter how many innocents on the other side are killed, it never compensates for the losses you have suffered. It does not teach your enemies any lessons. Oh wait! Somebody said it better - "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind".

I guess I'm not so sure that Muslims AREN'T drifting that way. It's a slow process, how long did it take other major religions? I don't think broad social change is really all that evident as it happens, and Muslim leaders are starting to speak out against terrorism and extremism.

And a note about suicide bombers. There is a difference between having a geniune problem and having a good reason. I think it is certainly worth examining the issues behind suicide bombings while at the same time fighting the method they use to express their "issues". I don't see a contradiction there.
 

Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
0
0
What is the world looking for?

Some sort of re-education of Islamic youth, re-structuring of Islamic societies, and reform of Islam. Right now it stands as the most intolerant group of nations and people in the world. This needs to change. When you have violence spreading from Isreal and Jordan, to Niger, France, India, Afghanistan and Russia as well as America, then I think there is something more than just 'oppressed youth'. A good portion of the problem is Islamic. If they don't have the guts to clean their house, thats fine. But when your kids start causing peoples trouble at other peoples homes maybe its time to start looking inwards.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: Proletariat
If they don't have the guts to clean their house, thats fine. But when your kids start causing peoples trouble at other peoples homes maybe its time to start looking inwards.

And we have 160,000 troops in Iraq. I think it is also us who are having the same problem of cleaning our own house.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Proletariat
What is the world looking for?

Some sort of re-education of Islamic youth, re-structuring of Islamic societies, and reform of Islam. Right now it stands as the most intolerant group of nations and people in the world. This needs to change. When you have violence spreading from Isreal and Jordan, to France, Niger, India, Afghanistan and Russia as well as America, then I think there is something more than just 'oppressed youth'. A good portion of the problem is Islamic. If they don't have the guts to clean their house, thats fine. But when your kids start causing peoples trouble at other peoples homes maybe its time to start looking inwards.

Yes, and this was the sort of clap trap I was talking about. You don't have any real ideas or suggestions, just vague "something needs to be done" type statements. It would be super if they all got together at the big meeting and decided to re-structure their society (or whatever), but I don't think that's quite how things work.
 

Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Proletariat
What is the world looking for?

Some sort of re-education of Islamic youth, re-structuring of Islamic societies, and reform of Islam. Right now it stands as the most intolerant group of nations and people in the world. This needs to change. When you have violence spreading from Isreal and Jordan, to France, Niger, India, Afghanistan and Russia as well as America, then I think there is something more than just 'oppressed youth'. A good portion of the problem is Islamic. If they don't have the guts to clean their house, thats fine. But when your kids start causing peoples trouble at other peoples homes maybe its time to start looking inwards.

Yes, and this was the sort of clap trap I was talking about. You don't have any real ideas or suggestions, just vague "something needs to be done" type statements. It would be super if they all got together at the big meeting and decided to re-structure their society (or whatever), but I don't think that's quite how things work.
So its all our responsibility?

What have Islamic families and social groups done to curb this? I haven't seen one group do a damn thing. Its all finger waving and talk. Who cares if someone puts a fatwa or jihad against terrorism? Why don't Muslims take that jihad to an action level. Many of them seem to be able to do that when killing fellow Muslims or foreigners.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Proletariat
What is the world looking for?

Some sort of re-education of Islamic youth, re-structuring of Islamic societies, and reform of Islam. Right now it stands as the most intolerant group of nations and people in the world. This needs to change. When you have violence spreading from Isreal and Jordan, to France, Niger, India, Afghanistan and Russia as well as America, then I think there is something more than just 'oppressed youth'. A good portion of the problem is Islamic. If they don't have the guts to clean their house, thats fine. But when your kids start causing peoples trouble at other peoples homes maybe its time to start looking inwards.

Yes, and this was the sort of clap trap I was talking about. You don't have any real ideas or suggestions, just vague "something needs to be done" type statements. It would be super if they all got together at the big meeting and decided to re-structure their society (or whatever), but I don't think that's quite how things work.
So its all our responsibility?

What have Islamic families and social groups done to curb this? I haven't seen one group do a damn thing. Its all finger waving and talk. Who cares if someone puts a fatwa or jihad against terrorism? Why don't Muslims take that jihad to an action level. Many of them seem to be able to do that when killing fellow Muslims or foreigners.

I'm asking what you think they should be doing. It's easy to say that they aren't doing enough, but what exactly should they be doing? That was the whole point of this thread. What exactly is involved with the "action level". More importantly, what can an individual Muslim do, or a community center?
 

Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Proletariat
What is the world looking for?

Some sort of re-education of Islamic youth, re-structuring of Islamic societies, and reform of Islam. Right now it stands as the most intolerant group of nations and people in the world. This needs to change. When you have violence spreading from Isreal and Jordan, to France, Niger, India, Afghanistan and Russia as well as America, then I think there is something more than just 'oppressed youth'. A good portion of the problem is Islamic. If they don't have the guts to clean their house, thats fine. But when your kids start causing peoples trouble at other peoples homes maybe its time to start looking inwards.

Yes, and this was the sort of clap trap I was talking about. You don't have any real ideas or suggestions, just vague "something needs to be done" type statements. It would be super if they all got together at the big meeting and decided to re-structure their society (or whatever), but I don't think that's quite how things work.
So its all our responsibility?

What have Islamic families and social groups done to curb this? I haven't seen one group do a damn thing. Its all finger waving and talk. Who cares if someone puts a fatwa or jihad against terrorism? Why don't Muslims take that jihad to an action level. Many of them seem to be able to do that when killing fellow Muslims or foreigners.

I'm asking what you think they should be doing. It's easy to say that they aren't doing enough, but what exactly should they be doing? That was the whole point of this thread. What exactly is involved with the "action level". More importantly, what can an individual Muslim do, or a community center?
Lock up these criminals, thugs and murderers. Don't put them in cozy cells and secretly release them like the two countries that are supposedly doing the most to fight terrorism, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Put a jihad out and create a militia. Tell people that they get those virgins if they help the community, not killing Europeans, Israelis, Indians or people from any other bordering nation. If all these people respect is force maybe they should be fought by people within the community who don't like the direction their civilization is heading in.

It seems as if the West, Israel and India are damned if you do, damned if you don't. I know for a fact that the laws in Europe and India are much more accomadating to Muslims then ours in America. Just look at that psycho one-eyed cleric in Britain who was living there forever and was preaching hate against his own adopted country. Just look at the marriage laws in India, Muslims have their own laws seperate from Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists. They can marry as many women as they want and have reserved seats in government. Israel has done far more than any of its neighbors are willing to do in order to defuse the situation.

Obviously being more liberal is not helping and neither is being harsh. Sometimes people need to look inwards instead of being so envious of what others have.

And BTW I'm all for helping poor countries, but it seems as if any aid we give to these fundamental Islamic whackos doesn't really go anywhere except towards perpetuating the current state of affairs.
 

mOeeOm

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2004
2,588
0
0
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Proletariat
What is the world looking for?

Some sort of re-education of Islamic youth, re-structuring of Islamic societies, and reform of Islam. Right now it stands as the most intolerant group of nations and people in the world. This needs to change. When you have violence spreading from Isreal and Jordan, to France, Niger, India, Afghanistan and Russia as well as America, then I think there is something more than just 'oppressed youth'. A good portion of the problem is Islamic. If they don't have the guts to clean their house, thats fine. But when your kids start causing peoples trouble at other peoples homes maybe its time to start looking inwards.

Yes, and this was the sort of clap trap I was talking about. You don't have any real ideas or suggestions, just vague "something needs to be done" type statements. It would be super if they all got together at the big meeting and decided to re-structure their society (or whatever), but I don't think that's quite how things work.
So its all our responsibility?

What have Islamic families and social groups done to curb this? I haven't seen one group do a damn thing. Its all finger waving and talk. Who cares if someone puts a fatwa or jihad against terrorism? Why don't Muslims take that jihad to an action level. Many of them seem to be able to do that when killing fellow Muslims or foreigners.

I'm asking what you think they should be doing. It's easy to say that they aren't doing enough, but what exactly should they be doing? That was the whole point of this thread. What exactly is involved with the "action level". More importantly, what can an individual Muslim do, or a community center?
Lock up these criminals, thugs and murderers. Don't put them in cozy cells and secretly release them like the two countries that are supposedly doing the most to fight terrorism, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Put a jihad out and create a militia. Tell people that they get those virgins

Stopped reading right there, before you make wacky suggestions go out and learn about Islam first.
 

Bumrush99

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2004
3,334
194
106
Originally posted by: mOeeOm


Stopped reading right there, before you make wacky suggestions go out and learn about Islam first.

So are you denying the commonly held perception that pious (to some that would include murderers and suicide bombers) Muslims are believed to go to heaven with 72 virgins? Are the reports of Muslim suicide bombers screaming "God is great" before killing women and children fake as well?

Stop denying the truth. Muslim extremist have been killing and maiming in the name of god and Islam for hundreds of years. Please refute that.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
0
0
I wonder what exactly it is we expect Muslims to DO.

They need to do what the Catholic church did in the 60s. Centralize leadership and start controlling the faith. Too many chiefs in the current Islamic structure. When any half a$$ed cleric can call for the end of the world, there is a definite control issue.

 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: irwincur
I wonder what exactly it is we expect Muslims to DO.
They need to do what the Catholic church did in the 60s. Centralize leadership and start controlling the faith. Too many chiefs in the current Islamic structure. When any half a$$ed cleric can call for the end of the world, there is a definite control issue.
That's an interesting idea that I've seen floated by various people, but it contradicts a fairly central tenet in the faith. There is no need for a central church or leader - Islam is a faith that connects man to master directly, no go-betweens.

That's not to say that they couldn't put together a council of experts that interpreted things from the Koran, but a Pope-like leader is definitely out.
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
1
76
Originally posted by: Proletariat

Lock up these criminals, thugs and murderers. Don't put them in cozy cells and secretly release them like the two countries that are supposedly doing the most to fight terrorism, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Put a jihad out and create a militia. Tell people that they get those virgins if they help the community, not killing Europeans, Israelis, Indians or people from any other bordering nation. If all these people respect is force maybe they should be fought by people within the community who don't like the direction their civilization is heading in.

So you want armed Muslim militias to go around and try to bring down those that are going to cause harm? Come on man, do you really want that to happen in the US or just other countries where it's so easy to do? If you want to stop terrorism we need to pull out, enforcing democracy is just another form of imperialism.
 

Chiller2

Senior member
Aug 19, 2005
286
0
0
What do I want them to do well for starters if your Iman starts talking about blowing up things leave the mosq and REPORT IT!!! When a suicde bomber blows himself up condem him and his act for being cowardly. Do no support their actions by your actions or inaction. If I was a member of a Christian church and the preacher started talking about blowing up govt building I would be on the phone to the FBI so fast it would make your head spin. Thats all I ask them to do I don't expect them to arrest or capture anyone just report them and activly speak out againt them and their acts.
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
1
76
Originally posted by: Chiller2
What do I want them to do well for starters if your Iman starts talking about blowing up things leave the mosq and REPORT IT!!! When a suicde bomber blows himself up condem him and his act for being cowardly. Do no support their actions by your actions or inaction. If I was a member of a Christian church and the preacher started talking about blowing up govt building I would be on the phone to the FBI so fast it would make your head spin. Thats all I ask them to do I don't expect them to arrest or capture anyone just report them and activly speak out againt them and their acts.

Why, if they're Christian the FBI won't do anything. Check out some of the things Pat Robertson has said.
 

ExpertNovice

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
939
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
There seems to be a common theme in most of the theads about terrorism lately, one that is almost repeated word for word whenever the topic of Islamic terrorism comes up. The concept is that, while the vast majority of Muslims are not extremists, radicals, or terrorists, we can still blame them because they aren't cleaning their own house. At first I could kind of see the point, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder what exactly it is we expect Muslims to DO.

Think about it, there are how many billions of Muslims all over the world? They come from different backgrounds, social classes, countries, etc. Like almost any other religion I can think of, members are as varied as any other group of people in the world. And yet all members of the religion apparently should bear responsibility for the actions of anyone who practices their religion. Not only that, but it is their duty to take care of the bad elements in their religion, or we're going to do it for them...and the insinuation is that it would be in their best interest if we didn't do that...

But again, what exactly do we expect from them? If you listen closely, and don't watch Fox News, you'll probably hear Muslim group after Muslim group speaking out against the extremist elements of their religion, especially after attacks. Muslim leaders in France have issued a religious edict against the rioting and violence there. I suspect if you ask the next Muslim you run into (especially if you live in the US), you'll find that they probably dislike Osama bin Laden even more than you do. What else do we expect from them? Religion is one of those funny things where you can proclaim whatever the hell you want. Osama bin Laden is not a Muslim by any stretch of the defintion of what makes someone a good Muslim, but it's a religion, Osama can call himself a Muslim if he wants. He could just as easially call himself a Christian, or a Buddhist (although he'd find a lot less justification for killing his enemies that way). How exactly would Christians or Buddhists stop him? They could say that he doesn't represent their mainstream views...which is mostly what Muslim groups are already doing.

Maybe it's just a problem in that we're always talking about abstractions. It's easy to say that "Muslims" should "police themselves", because it doesn't really mean anything. But I think it's harder to tell Omar the deli owner that it is his personal fault that the 9/11 hijackers killed a bunch of Americans. Or maybe I'm missing something here...



If you listen closely, and don't watch Fox News, you'll probably hear Muslim group after Muslim group speaking out against the extremist elements of their religion, especially after attacks.

That is the problem. They are not. Several times (most notably in Dallas, TX where 75 out of 75 Mosque leaders said they and their members would not denounce the actions of the Muslim Terrorists.

I've heard two actually speak out against the violence and one of those qualified their statment in such a away that it was like a liberal apology. You know, not "I'm sorry for what I did" but "I'm sorry that I was caught" or "I'm sorry that you feel that way."
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
1
76
Originally posted by: ExpertNovice
That is the problem. They are not. Several times (most notably in Dallas, TX where 75 out of 75 Mosque leaders said they and their members would not denounce the actions of the Muslim Terrorists.

I've heard two actually speak out against the violence and one of those qualified their statment in such a away that it was like a liberal apology. You know, not "I'm sorry for what I did" but "I'm sorry that I was caught" or "I'm sorry that you feel that way."

Link to that study please?

and for other stuff...

http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.html