The Infamous Robert McNamara on Iraq

[sMiLeYz]

In an exclusive interview, repentant Vietnam War architect Robert McNamara breaks his silence on Iraq: The United States, he says, is making the same mistakes all over again

He decided to break his silence on Iraq when I called him up the other day at his Washington office. I told him that his carefully enumerated lists of historic lessons from Vietnam were in danger of being ignored. He agreed, and told me that he was deeply frustrated to see history repeating itself.

"We're misusing our influence," he said in a staccato voice that had lost none of its rapid-fire engagement. "It's just wrong what we're doing. It's morally wrong, it's politically wrong, it's economically wrong."

'It's just wrong what we're doing'

 

[dahunan]

[neocon]I don't see anything wrong with murdering 8,000 or even 10,000 brown skinned Iraqis. [/neocon]

 

[heartsurgeon]

repentant Vietnam War architect Robert McNamara

Repentant my @ss, have you read his self-serving book..this guy is a weasel trying to make himself look better for the history books.

 

[sMiLeYz]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

repentant Vietnam War architect Robert McNamara

Repentant my @ss, have you read his self-serving book..this guy is a weasel trying to make himself look better for the history books.

Is that the best right wing smear you can do?

 

[burnedout]

Well whatdaya know? Old Robert "let's kill 50,000 Americans and 4,000,000 Vietnamese" McNamara, the former analyst, Ford CEO, SoD and advocate of sending mentally-handicapped Americans into combat can still speak - somewhat.

 

[Piano Man]

Wow, looks like its never too late to change. I want to see that documentary with him.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Miracle of miracles heartsurgeon actually said something accurate. McNamara's book was extremely self-serving . . . but that does not nullify his criticism of Bush War 2003.

 

[heartsurgeon]

Miracle of miracles heartsurgeon actually said something accurate. McNamara's book was extremely self-serving

BBD, your going soft on me...or has somebody stolen BBD's identity?

 

[chess9]

McNamara's a flaming assh+++. I detest that man. He lied non-stop to the American people for years and once he stopped feeding at the public trough and basking in the limelight and realized the tide had turned against the war he tried to rehabilitate himself. Most of you guys didn't live through the '60's so you don't really know what a scoundrel he is. Just typing his name is revolting.... Talk about opportunists....And I didn't read his book and won't read his book. Pfffffft-pfffft!!!! Hisssssss........

-Robert

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: chess9
McNamara's a flaming assh+++. I detest that man. He lied non-stop to the American people for years and once he stopped feeding at the public trough and basking in the limelight and realized the tide had turned against the war he tried to rehabilitate himself. Most of you guys didn't live through the '60's so you don't really know what a scoundrel he is. Just typing his name is revolting.... Talk about opportunists....And I didn't read his book and won't read his book. Pfffffft-pfffft!!!! Hisssssss........

-Robert

In my opinion, "Bodycount Bob" probably represents the most horrifying example of a militant technocrat that our world has yet to witness. He should have been locked up 35 years ago.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

repentant Vietnam War architect Robert McNamara

Repentant my @ss, have you read his self-serving book..this guy is a weasel trying to make himself look better for the history books.

I'd agree with this, but it is interesting to see US government officials admit to a bit of fallibility. I suspect that we'll be hearing some of the same stuff from the current crop of war-hawks a few years from now.

 

[chess9]

If a man rapes a woman and then says he's sorry should she forgive him?

If a man rapes four countries should the people forgive him?

I'm sorry, but I would be happy to strangle the man with my own two hands. I am not kidding.... He makes my blood boil.

-Robert

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

In my opinion, "Bodycount Bob" probably represents the most horrifying example of a militant technocrat that our world has yet to witness. He should have been locked up 35 years ago.

I don't see much difference in Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, et al . . . even Minister Arsecroft (who probably hasn't killed anyone) . . . has minimal respect for the basic right of people throughout the world for self-determination.

 

[onelove]

McNamara makes my skin crawl too. I decided to see Fog of War anyway. A worth see. Over the span of 25 hours of interviews, some truth comes out & you can see some of the most telling ones written on his face. There's a corner of his mind that knows what he is (he admits he would have been tried as a war-criminal for fire-bombing Japan), even if he won't even admit it to himself.

Nobody should shed a tear for this guy, but it must be tough for him to watch the US do what its doing right now.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Originally posted by: chess9
McNamara's a flaming assh+++. I detest that man. He lied non-stop to the American people for years and once he stopped feeding at the public trough and basking in the limelight and realized the tide had turned against the war he tried to rehabilitate himself. Most of you guys didn't live through the '60's so you don't really know what a scoundrel he is. Just typing his name is revolting.... Talk about opportunists....And I didn't read his book and won't read his book. Pfffffft-pfffft!!!! Hisssssss........

-Robert

In my opinion, "Bodycount Bob" probably represents the most horrifying example of a militant technocrat that our world has yet to witness. He should have been locked up 35 years ago.

Well BBD already responded to this comment with the appropriate addition so that leaves me to second McNamara is the President now. These are the monsters that are cut off from feeling. The monsters that live in their heads. The ones for whom life is an idea and humans but pawns on a board. They are the idealists and dreamers who dream of worlds without fear, where their inner psychosis will never be revealed. These are the monsters whose fear of Armageddon leaks out In a way as to make it happen. They are never on the front line, only miles behind. These are the monsters whose self hate makes them want to kill the world, who see only deadness because they are already dead.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

In my opinion, "Bodycount Bob" probably represents the most horrifying example of a militant technocrat that our world has yet to witness. He should have been locked up 35 years ago.

I don't see much difference in Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, et al . . . even Minister Arsecroft (who probably hasn't killed anyone) . . . has minimal respect for the basic right of people throughout the world for self-determination.

Blinded once more by apologist partisanship, I see. I'm sorry, but I see one helluva difference. When a leader commits his citizenry to conflict, the leader usually attempts to secure the preparedness thereof. Committing American citizens to combat with less than a fourth-grade education in the post-WWII era in order to both satisfy bizarre liberalist social programs and meet enlistment quotas is indefensible.

Implementing body counts of 'enemy' combatants, civilian and military, for purposes of horizontal reporting and national propaganda has NO equal.

Some posters continually bombard us with these thinly-veiled arguments comparing Bush, et al. to Hitler. When Bush, Inc. begins sending mentally-handicapped Americans to Iraq and demands body count quotas for Iraqi KIA, please come talk to me.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

And you think Bush War 2003 didn't count combatant (or more importantly civilian) casualties out of the goodness of their hearts?

You think Bushies conflated 9-11, Al Qaeda, and Saddam for some purpose other than propaganda rallying call to war? You think Cheney's "Saddam's nuke tour 2002-03" was anything but propaganda?

Where did the Mushroom Cloud analogy come from and what was the purpose? Since when did broad international support come to mean the heads of state from countries we're paying off? In fact, our broad international support is so principled we leave off the sole country whose citizens actually supported the war (Israel).

The North Vietnamese Army was vicious but so was the South. Maybe that's what war requires the ability to be more vicious than your adversary. But there's only a numerical difference between firebombing villages and dropping JDAMs on buildings where Saddam "might" be located. In Vietnam . . . mistakes were made that prolonged war. In Iraq . . . actions were taken to guarantee war. McNamara sux and I doubt Bushies will ring up American or foreign casualties in comparable numbers. But these people are cut from the same cloth. They believe they are serving America's interests by killing the right number of certain people. McNamara sort of sees the errors in his past and he's commenting on how similar patterns are arising in the Bush administration.

Open up a copy of Webster's and see if partisan in any way fits my description of current (or past) events.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
And you think Bush War 2003 didn't count combatant (or more importantly civilian) casualties out of the goodness of their hearts?

Enemy casualty counts were disregarded and in fact, have been discouraged by DoD AFTER "Bodycount Bob's" little exercise in moral/social/political stupidity. Nice try, though.

You think Bushies conflated 9-11, Al Qaeda, and Saddam for some purpose other than propaganda rallying call to war? You think Cheney's "Saddam's nuke tour 2002-03" was anything but propaganda?

WTF does this have to do with sending mentally-incompetent Americans into combat? You know, the supposedly disadvantaged of our society?

Where did the Mushroom Cloud analogy come from and what was the purpose?

Which "Mushroom Cloud analogy" doth thou make reference to? 4,000,000 dead Vietnamese, possibly?

Since when did broad international support come to mean the heads of state from countries we're paying off?

South Korea..... Australia..... Sorry to burst your bubble, but after Dien Bien Phu, the Europeans bailed.

In fact, our broad international support is so principled we leave off the sole country whose citizens actually supported the war (Israel).

.....and further escalate the already contentiously volatile conflict in the region involving Jews against Muslims/Islamists. I gotta hand it to ya. What an absolutely brilliant fvcking concept! Next....

The North Vietnamese Army was vicious but so was the South. Maybe that's what war requires the ability to be more vicious than your adversary. But there's only a numerical difference between firebombing villages and dropping JDAMs on buildings where Saddam "might" be located. In Vietnam . . . mistakes were made that prolonged war. In Iraq . . . actions were taken to guarantee war. McNamara sux and I doubt Bushies will ring up American or foreign casualties in comparable numbers. But these people are cut from the same cloth. They believe they are serving America's interests by killing the right number of certain people.

But are "they" promoting a military culture relying upon a structure of numbers that systematically kills SCORES of innocent civilians for the sake of a goddamned quota?

McNamara sort of sees the errors in his past and he's commenting on how similar patterns are arising in the Bush administration.

Well, no joke. How unfortunate we only read/hear about subtle allusions thereto. Sound familiar?

Open up a copy of Webster's and see if partisan in any way fits my description of current (or past) events.

Give me and the rest of us a break. You present us with some ill-conceived response attempting to equate the Bush, Inc. administration with the most infamous and diabolical Secretary of War/Defense in this nation's history. I mean, my god man, you could at least try to just compare Dumsfeld to "Bodycount Bob". But, oh no, you wanna go for the whole irrelavent enchilada. Please.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

In my opinion, "Bodycount Bob" probably represents the most horrifying example of a militant technocrat that our world has yet to witness. He should have been locked up 35 years ago.

I don't see much difference in Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, et al . . . even Minister Arsecroft (who probably hasn't killed anyone) . . . has minimal respect for the basic right of people throughout the world for self-determination.

Blinded once more by apologist partisanship, I see. I'm sorry, but I see one helluva difference. When a leader commits his citizenry to conflict, the leader usually attempts to secure the preparedness thereof. Committing American citizens to combat with less than a fourth-grade education in the post-WWII era in order to both satisfy bizarre liberalist social programs and meet enlistment quotas is indefensible.

Implementing body counts of 'enemy' combatants, civilian and military, for purposes of horizontal reporting and national propaganda has NO equal.

Some posters continually bombard us with these thinly-veiled arguments comparing Bush, et al. to Hitler. When Bush, Inc. begins sending mentally-handicapped Americans to Iraq and demands body count quotas for Iraqi KIA, please come talk to me.

I love people who are so obtuse as to demand that analogy fit 100%. Now we can get down to business profiting from the comparison of Mcnamara to NcNamara and not to the Bush Regime. They are the same kind of monsters. Some just don't want to see. It's a self protective reflex to save false face.

 

[HardWarrior]

These guys NEVER admit that they're wrong. I'm surprised he even came CLOSE to it. Meanwhile, the fed is pulling the SAME BS now in Iraq, and half of the population is cheering them on. As a people, we're just not very smart.

 

[Witling]

Burned, how about something different this time. Let's try, "You grew it, you chew it." The most weary thing on this board are opinions without support. You spoke the opinion, can you support it? Please provide at least one link to McNamara sending mentally unprepared citizens! Hell, I'm old fashioned. It could even be to a book by a semi-reuputable author.

BTW, going to VietNam then was sometimes known as "traveling on a McNamara fellowship." Arrogance made us overreach then. Now we have two choices, get caught overreaching again or, get out and leave Iraq the same kind of mess it was before we killed 8,000 Iraqi's and busted the infrastructure.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: Whitling
Burned, how about something different this time. Let's try, "You grew it, you chew it." The most weary thing on this board are opinions without support. You spoke the opinion, can you support it? Please provide at least one link to McNamara sending mentally unprepared citizens! Hell, I'm old fashioned. It could even be to a book by a semi-reuputable author.

BTW, going to VietNam then was sometimes known as "traveling on a McNamara fellowship." Arrogance made us overreach then. Now we have two choices, get caught overreaching again or, get out and leave Iraq the same kind of mess it was before we killed 8,000 Iraqi's and busted the infrastructure.

Never heard of "McNamara's Moron's", eh?

"Compensatory Education in the Equalization of Educational Opportunity, I (in Programs for the Improvement of Public Education)"(A peer review journal)
Edmund W. Gordon; Adelaide Jablonsky
The Journal of Negro Education, Vol. 37, No. 3, Race and Equality in American Education. (Summer, 1968), pp. 268-279

From page 272:

"Project 100,000 was designed as an attempt by the armed services to become involved with and to help alleviate social and educational problems of the poor. In October 1966, 40,000 young men were taken into the armed services under lowered entrance standards. These men fell between the tenth and thirteenth percentile on Defense Department qualifying tests.

[...]

"Seventeen percent of this group were reading below the fourth grade level'.

Other mention of the program:

"McNamara's Moron Corps" - Salon Paid subscription, but the intro should give you an idea.

Mention during PBS special

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

McNamara = Rumsfeld.

No real difference.

 

[Witling]

Burned, thank you for the clue. Sacre bleu, October 1966 is when they made me my special offer. I'll try and check out McNamara's Morons. Sounds like an apt title, but I'm not sure to whom it should apply.

 

[Witling]

BurnedOut. I took a look at your two sources. I found the PBS source a little confusing, but it is something I'd like to look into more. When I read the articles, the motives were certainly expressed as high minded ideals. And, no, I hadn't heard of McNamara's Morons -- and I have heard of many things. I'll post on this in the fullness of time.