Babbles
Diamond Member
- Jan 4, 2001
- 8,253
- 14
- 81
I was in scouts (just a merit badge and a project short of my Eagle 
) and I definetly enjoyed all of it. I did things I never would have done, and even now like 14 years later I still think about my Philmont trip.
If I have a son, I really would like to see him do that entire Boy Scout thing as well.
) and I definetly enjoyed all of it. I did things I never would have done, and even now like 14 years later I still think about my Philmont trip.If I have a son, I really would like to see him do that entire Boy Scout thing as well.
Where did you go, we did 12 day canoe/portage in Algonquin, 6 days in and no one else seen for days. Moose, Loons. But it helped that I was explorer by then and with my gf. Although we had to have different tents
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
Originally posted by: thepd7
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: thepd7
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: NFS4
Wow, I think someone said it best on MSNBC last week. You know that your opponent has run out of meaningful things to say when the Hitler references come out
That being said, to tell you the truth, I really don't care what others think about the Boy Scouts or what they do. All I know is that I thought that it was beneficial to me as a youth and when I was going through the scouts NOT ONCE did the issue of race or homosexuality enter the equation.
The rest can do as you please. No skin off my nose.
no, you can't trot out that internet "law", just look into the youth groups during that time and you can see they do have strong parallels. and their strong points did not make up for the evil involved. and it doesn't matter if your troop leader is specifically homophobic, many aren't. i never got a talk about homos in scouts ever. but the simple fact is there is no way to join without supporting the organization and its leadership which is clearly bigoted. there is no joining while flagging yourself as objecting to things. you join, you place yourself on their side and in effect bolster their position. as for being benificial, i think it would be more benificial to be morally/ethically consistent and teach children not to lend support to bigotry in any way. even if its personally no skin off their noses as its another group thats subject to rejection.
By the definitions of bigot at dictionary.com here you are a bigot because you have just as much intolerance for those that think being gay is wrong as they have for gays. Interesting.
if you want to get technical you couldn't be against racists without being a bigot ok? the specific bigotry here is homophobia, and in the boyscouts its not just a belief, its enforced. so stop playing games.
You can be "against" rascists, you just have to respect their beliefs. I do, and I respect their right to believe that. The reason you are a bigot is because of how you are calling scouts bigots.
lol you realize by your definition the term becomes utterly meaningless
as for respecting their beliefs? theres no reason to respect bigoted beliefs. you can respect the right to hold disgusting beliefs sure, thats freedom, but to respect the beliefs themselves? i think not. no ones asking for the boyscouts to ban homophobes, just to stop their exclusionary policy against gays. stop playing games.Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to their prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry
homophobia has no valid rational ground to stand on. its just that simple.
I was an athlete and know the importance of organizations, and boy scouts seem to have their sh\t together!
Never was, but I respect it a lot.
Never was, but I respect it a lot.
Scouting is great, I joined when I was six and am a leader since '96 Scouting here is different in some aspects but the goals are the same. (P.e. leaders are younger, often starting at age 15. Many clubs have members of both genders and religious affiliation is the exception. The YMCA and another, Swiss movement have connections to churches but Scouts usually don't.) I had a good and interesting time as a kid and learned much organising countless camps and doing other Scout stuff
Scouting here is different in some aspects but the goals are the same. (P.e. leaders are younger, often starting at age 15. Many clubs have members of both genders and religious affiliation is the exception. The YMCA and another, Swiss movement have connections to churches but Scouts usually don't.) I had a good and interesting time as a kid and learned much organising countless camps and doing other Scout stuff I'm at the same point, minus having my own children. I loved the scouts and believe that in practice it's still more on the good side of things than not. But I was approached this spring about getting involved on the district council and I just could'nt do it, though I know it would have been a good time.
Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor member of the Order of the Arrow. one of the best times of my life.
Scouting is ok as long as you don't brainwash the kids into believing that the only goal of scouting is to become an Eagle scout and that they are not as good as the other kids that do become Eagle scouts.
I had fun and learned a lot, but never got passed First Class because I can't swim and so I couldn't pass the Lifesaving badge.
I have some fond and not-so fond memories....
I had fun and learned a lot, but never got passed First Class because I can't swim and so I couldn't pass the Lifesaving badge.
I have some fond and not-so fond memories....
Eagle '98 checking in here.
The whole anti-gay/religous issue really depends on individual troops. It saddens me to see the Scouts making such a big deal out of these issues on the national level but I can proudly say that, at least in my experience, the troop level is much more reasonable. One of my good friends in scouts, who also made it to Eagle, was gay. He wasn't totally out-of-the-closet flamboyant, but it wasn't exactly hidden either. It was never once an issue in my troop, and if it had been I probably would have quit. None of us were particularly religious either, most were even agnostic. What my troop did stress was living as a good person. I loved my time in scouts and I will certainly encourage my sons, should I have any, to participate as well. What I would not stand for, however, is a troop that does adhere to the far more intolerant "official" position.
The whole anti-gay/religous issue really depends on individual troops. It saddens me to see the Scouts making such a big deal out of these issues on the national level but I can proudly say that, at least in my experience, the troop level is much more reasonable. One of my good friends in scouts, who also made it to Eagle, was gay. He wasn't totally out-of-the-closet flamboyant, but it wasn't exactly hidden either. It was never once an issue in my troop, and if it had been I probably would have quit. None of us were particularly religious either, most were even agnostic. What my troop did stress was living as a good person. I loved my time in scouts and I will certainly encourage my sons, should I have any, to participate as well. What I would not stand for, however, is a troop that does adhere to the far more intolerant "official" position.
I think scouting is a good thing. One thing that left a bad taste in my mouth concerning scouting is how fund raising is practiced.
In Maryland, the Cub Scout pack kept most of the money earned and was used for projects and such for the boys.
Then we moved to Texas where he entered the Boy Scouts. The boys were having fund raisers every other month and most of the money went to the counsil to pay for their buildings and wages instead of being used directly for the boys.
In Maryland, the Cub Scout pack kept most of the money earned and was used for projects and such for the boys.
Then we moved to Texas where he entered the Boy Scouts. The boys were having fund raisers every other month and most of the money went to the counsil to pay for their buildings and wages instead of being used directly for the boys.
I will say that I'm glad I did scouting, but it was somewhat for the wrong reasons. I was in a race to become an Eagle Scout faster than my brother had become one, and thus, when I became an Eagle Scout in the beginning of 8th grade, I can easily say that leadership did not mean a whole lot to me then. Sure, I was a rolemodel, but I was strongly opposed to becoming even ASPL (Assistant Senior Patrol Leader) while I was a Life Scout. And, somewhat sadly, I only stuck around until I got my silver palms, mainly because I had switched my focus to running cross country and track.
Now, 16, a junior, and captain on my cross team, I can definitely say that I am now a true leader and that it means something to me, and really, I can't credit that a whole lot to scouts. Don't get me wrong - It was a good experience, but I'm just reflecting that the timing was not so great for me me personally for what I think is the most important thing to learn from scouting: maturing. Also, it is important to have fun as well, something I want to pass on to younger members of my team.
Anyway, I would also have to agree that the gay/atheist thing is blown way out of proportion - I never once noticed any problem with this, or maybe it was just my location in a small town. Our chaplain would say a prayer to conclude meetings, but it's not like we would hang someone if they didn't pray. Although, I was also a bit naive then, so who knows. Perhaps it's more just something at the "corporate" level than the troop level, anyway.
Now, 16, a junior, and captain on my cross team, I can definitely say that I am now a true leader and that it means something to me, and really, I can't credit that a whole lot to scouts. Don't get me wrong - It was a good experience, but I'm just reflecting that the timing was not so great for me me personally for what I think is the most important thing to learn from scouting: maturing. Also, it is important to have fun as well, something I want to pass on to younger members of my team.
Anyway, I would also have to agree that the gay/atheist thing is blown way out of proportion - I never once noticed any problem with this, or maybe it was just my location in a small town. Our chaplain would say a prayer to conclude meetings, but it's not like we would hang someone if they didn't pray. Although, I was also a bit naive then, so who knows. Perhaps it's more just something at the "corporate" level than the troop level, anyway.
Its been over 6 years and I still remember the Scout Oath and Motto. Definitely a great experience :thumbsup:
Spidey, I get it. Took my son to his first meeting tonight. Let the lame bashers lie, they cannot be helped.
I really wanted to join, but when I refused to take the oath (due to religious objections) they told me I couldn't. I think it really sucks that they're just about the only organization of the kind and they're so prejudiced that they discriminate against children that just want to be with their friends, learn, and have fun.
The later discrimination against gays and so on was just icing on an already bigoted cake.
The later discrimination against gays and so on was just icing on an already bigoted cake.
I was a member since 1st grade through to Eagle in '98. Got lots of merit badges, helped run a regional advanced leadership training camp for several summers (Sogus training in Oregon/Cascade Pacific Council), went on great trips, was Brotherhood in OA, etc.
I have to go on the record that I personally witnessed many, many, examples of the following fvcked up sh1t. Keep in mind that all of these examples were not just from my troop... I saw these same themes and issues at the council and regional level by adults, other troops and regional leadership.:
- Plenty of sexism against girls and women in general. Specific and strong sexism regarding women who are involved in scouting (eg. women scoutmasters).
- Plenty of racism against boys of other races that were trying to join groups where the majority of the scouts were white and being very openly "unwelcomed." I watched many minorty boys join troops in our area and leave shortly thereafter.
- LOTS of religious-based bigotry. I disagree with the BSA's stance as an organization that a belief in god is necessary to be a member of the BSA. There were also countless times when people were forced to go to a chapel service, say a collective prayer, sing religious-based songs, etc. that directly conflicted with their chosen religion... here's an example:
The leadership camp at which I worked as staff had a mandatory chapel service on Sundays. There were two services you could pick from: the Mormon LDS service or the "non-denominational" service. However, the "non-denominational" service was really "all-versions-of-Christianity." If you were jewish, islam, buddist, etc. you were screwed... you just had to sit there and sing along with the Christians (you were not allowed to attend the LDS service if you were not in-fact mormon). There should have been an option to "observe your beliefs in the manner you see fit, even if that is doing nothing."
- LOTS of homophobia and outright hatred/bigotry towards homosexual people, "gay" behavior and other things that were perceived to be "gay." Scouts running around calling people "gay" instead of "lame, an idiot, a bastard" etc.
The very worst was when that big court case came out... I think this was in June of 2000. I happened to be at the aforementioned leadership training camp when the news of the court case came out. The camp scoutmaster gathered all of the staff (thankgod he didn't do this in front of all the camp participants) and said, <paraphrasing> "Today is a landmark day for the boy scouts. Our organization has been protected by the Supreme Court against the attacks of people who want to change what the Boy Scouts stands for." I didn't stick around for the rest of his bigotry speech. I told him later in private that the way he stood in front of everyone and preached his views was unacceptable and inappropriate and that not everyone agreed with his viewpoints. Guess what he said to me?! He said, "<Epsil0n> those 'gay' people are sick. They have had some type of damage done to them during their childhood that makes them this way. In my practice (he is a therapist with a private practice) I have tried to help people overcome their sickness and it usually does not go well. You really don't want those types of people here in the BSA." OMFG! I was so mad and amazed he could spew such biggotry. The camp ended the next day and that was one of my last interactions with the Boy Scouts.
I cannot support an organization, though there are countless great things about it, which promotes biggotry in all of the above forms.
Epsil0n
I have to go on the record that I personally witnessed many, many, examples of the following fvcked up sh1t. Keep in mind that all of these examples were not just from my troop... I saw these same themes and issues at the council and regional level by adults, other troops and regional leadership.:
- Plenty of sexism against girls and women in general. Specific and strong sexism regarding women who are involved in scouting (eg. women scoutmasters).
- Plenty of racism against boys of other races that were trying to join groups where the majority of the scouts were white and being very openly "unwelcomed." I watched many minorty boys join troops in our area and leave shortly thereafter.
- LOTS of religious-based bigotry. I disagree with the BSA's stance as an organization that a belief in god is necessary to be a member of the BSA. There were also countless times when people were forced to go to a chapel service, say a collective prayer, sing religious-based songs, etc. that directly conflicted with their chosen religion... here's an example:
The leadership camp at which I worked as staff had a mandatory chapel service on Sundays. There were two services you could pick from: the Mormon LDS service or the "non-denominational" service. However, the "non-denominational" service was really "all-versions-of-Christianity." If you were jewish, islam, buddist, etc. you were screwed... you just had to sit there and sing along with the Christians (you were not allowed to attend the LDS service if you were not in-fact mormon). There should have been an option to "observe your beliefs in the manner you see fit, even if that is doing nothing."
- LOTS of homophobia and outright hatred/bigotry towards homosexual people, "gay" behavior and other things that were perceived to be "gay." Scouts running around calling people "gay" instead of "lame, an idiot, a bastard" etc.
The very worst was when that big court case came out... I think this was in June of 2000. I happened to be at the aforementioned leadership training camp when the news of the court case came out. The camp scoutmaster gathered all of the staff (thankgod he didn't do this in front of all the camp participants) and said, <paraphrasing> "Today is a landmark day for the boy scouts. Our organization has been protected by the Supreme Court against the attacks of people who want to change what the Boy Scouts stands for." I didn't stick around for the rest of his bigotry speech. I told him later in private that the way he stood in front of everyone and preached his views was unacceptable and inappropriate and that not everyone agreed with his viewpoints. Guess what he said to me?! He said, "<Epsil0n> those 'gay' people are sick. They have had some type of damage done to them during their childhood that makes them this way. In my practice (he is a therapist with a private practice) I have tried to help people overcome their sickness and it usually does not go well. You really don't want those types of people here in the BSA." OMFG! I was so mad and amazed he could spew such biggotry. The camp ended the next day and that was one of my last interactions with the Boy Scouts.
I cannot support an organization, though there are countless great things about it, which promotes biggotry in all of the above forms.
Epsil0n
How many of you guys would encourage your kids to join if they were forced to say "Allah is my God and Muhammed is his prophet" at every meeting?
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Was a boyscout myself, and am amazed at the simple skills that so many people don't possess these days in pretty much every walk of life.
Was a boyscout myself, and am amazed at the simple skills that so many people don't possess these days in pretty much every walk of life.
Maybe it's the area of the country that you are in, which tends to be a bit more conservative? I grew up in the NYC suburbs of NJ and I never perceived the racist, anti-gay, or super pro-religious stances that you did, neither in my own troop or in others that we were at camp or other gatherings with. Of course, I guess it tends to be a more progressive/racially mixed area than it sounds like yours was.
You make a very good point--this is exactly what I was talking about. I did not enjoy the peer pressure to say "in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost" before I could eat my dinner.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 24K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter