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The Idea of Hordes of "Never Joe" Bernie Bros Not Supported By Two Recent Polls

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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
57,948
10,331
126
So did the Democrats.
Also true. I'll vote for Bernie, or Joe, or Liz, or Beto or any Democrat to keep it from happening again. You'd do well to take the same attitude. I figure we can sort out our differences amicably after that. If not, Trump & the GOP will destroy the government of the people & our chances of ever doing it. They're angling for final victory in the top down class warfare they've waged against the rest of us for the last 40 years.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
43,781
2,936
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Lots of other Sanders supporters are prepared to vote for a blatatnly racist sex-pest doofus and at least part-time tool-of-the-plutocrats in Biden.
Your description of Joe makes YOU a "useful idiot" for the Trumpistas. It's reliably reported that Gandhi beat his wife, so, I guess if you lived in India in the 30s and 40s you wouldn't have supported him as the leader of the movement to free India from colonial rule, right? Not fucking pure and perfect enough? Keep india British!
 
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pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
5,738
1,539
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I wonder at this point how "left" most of Sanders's popular platform is. Saying that we shouldn't live in an oligarchy where a few billionaires control everything, saying that we should have nationalized healthcare, saying that marijuana should be legal...


These are left economic issues? What about Sanders is "anti-nationalist"? Lots of other Sanders supporters are prepared to vote for a blatatnly racist sex-pest doofus and at least part-time tool-of-the-plutocrats in Biden.

From Vietnam and the Bay of Pigs, to bombing pharmaceutical factories in Sudan, to voting for the invasion of Iraq and applauding the coup in Honduras, or imposing a corrupt ruler on Haiti, US liberals have generally been pretty nationalist. Internationally they put the interests of white elite Americans first. That's one of the main reasons I don't trust them very much.

Sanders history is not that of a ultra-leftist or a total oddball like Gabbard (he supported the war on Serbia, for example), but he's generally been to the left of the nationalist liberals - e.g. opposing the war in Vietnam, not voting for the invasion of Iraq and not demonising Cuba. I'd be happier if he'd opposed the invasion of Afghanistan (which seems to have been a completely futile waste of lives, with some depressing parallels with Vietnam) but you can't have everything.

Saying billionaires shouldn't control everything makes one a leftist these days. But the fact remains that Biden is clearly not exactly the same as Trump, and that's what the choice now comes down to.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
43,781
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From Vietnam and the Bay of Pigs, to bombing pharmaceutical factories in Sudan, to voting for the invasion of Iraq and applauding the coup in Honduras, or imposing a corrupt ruler on Haiti, US liberals have generally been pretty nationalist. Internationally they put the interests of white elite Americans first. That's one of the main reasons I don't trust them very much.

Sanders history is not that of a ultra-leftist or a total oddball like Gabbard (he supported the war on Serbia, for example), but he's generally been to the left of the nationalist liberals - e.g. opposing the war in Vietnam, not voting for the invasion of Iraq and not demonising Cuba. I'd be happier if he'd opposed the invasion of Afghanistan (which seems to have been a completely futile waste of lives, with some depressing parallels with Vietnam) but you can't have everything.

Saying billionaires shouldn't control everything makes one a leftist these days. But the fact remains that Biden is clearly not exactly the same as Trump, and that's what the choice now comes down to.
Excellent. Thank you! It's your last two sentences, despite what you wrote before, that are key!
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
3,606
2,290
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The ONLY thing that should "unify" Democrats (and, I would add, Democrats and all people with both eye's open to what's going on in this country the last 3 years and those with COMMON SENSE) is the drive to defeat Mango Mussolini this November. Outside of that, it's pretty obvious today's Democrats don't "unify" for squat.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,631
1,510
126
Your description of Joe makes YOU a "useful idiot" for the Trumpistas.
What part of my description is false? Seems like Joe's behavior is what's useful to his opponents.

It's reliably reported that Gandhi beat his wife, so, I guess if you lived in India in the 30s and 40s you wouldn't have supported him as the leader of the movement to free India from colonial rule, right? Not fucking pure and perfect enough? Keep india British!
To improve the analogy, if there was another revolutionary that was better than Gandhi in every way, I would have supported that person. Funny how it's easier to oppose British imperialism 90 years ago than it is to oppose our own imperialism today.
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
5,738
1,539
136
Your description of Joe makes YOU a "useful idiot" for the Trumpistas. It's reliably reported that Gandhi beat his wife, so, I guess if you lived in India in the 30s and 40s you wouldn't have supported him as the leader of the movement to free India from colonial rule, right? Not fucking pure and perfect enough? Keep india British!
That example doesn't seem like a great one. Not all pro-independence Indians were supporters of Gandhi at the time, by any means. Gandhi's approach was far from universally popular. He was a spiritual figurehead, but it's debatable whether his actual tactics were really what achieved independence. Others were probably more effective, including those favouring more violent resistance.

Main thing is, I have known Indians who were there in the 1940s and were members of the independence movement but who I never heard say a good word about Gandhi, seeing him as too much of a compromiser with a lot of other misguided ideas.

And now, of course, there's an increasing right-wing tendency among Hindu Indians to disavow Gandhi. He's not hugely popular in India today. He was assassinated by an Indian, after all, and these days it seems it's the political descendents of his assassin who are in power.

Edit - this is mostly irrelevant, admittedly.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,631
1,510
126
From Vietnam and the Bay of Pigs, to bombing pharmaceutical factories in Sudan, to voting for the invasion of Iraq and applauding the coup in Honduras, or imposing a corrupt ruler on Haiti, US liberals have generally been pretty nationalist. Internationally they put the interests of white elite Americans first. That's one of the main reasons I don't trust them very much.

Sanders history is not that of a ultra-leftist or a total oddball like Gabbard (he supported the war on Serbia, for example), but he's generally been to the left of the nationalist liberals - e.g. opposing the war in Vietnam, not voting for the invasion of Iraq and not demonising Cuba. I'd be happier if he'd opposed the invasion of Afghanistan (which seems to have been a completely futile waste of lives, with some depressing parallels with Vietnam) but you can't have everything.
I agree with all of this, I guess I just wouldn't say that makes him anti-nationalist.

Saying billionaires shouldn't control everything makes one a leftist these days. But the fact remains that Biden is clearly not exactly the same as Trump, and that's what the choice now comes down to.
I guess it depends on perspective. If someone is clear-eyed about what Biden represents, what he stands for, and what he is likely to do, and they decide that in their view it is worth voting for him in an attempt to stop Trump, I understand that. It's the mindless cheerleading that bothers me.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,631
1,510
126
Excellent. Thank you! It's your last two sentences, despite what you wrote before, that are key!
Your objection to his earlier comments are helpful in understanding you support for Biden. As I mentioned before, easier to oppose British imperialism 90 years ago than American imperialism today.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
25,142
4,648
126
I too am curious as to the rationale for that 7% - to claim to support Sanders but then turn around and say you'd vote for Donald Fucking Trump!? As far as I'm concerned, those people were never interested in any of Sanders's actually policy.
People are quick to claim stupidity because on the surface it certainly looks a lot like stupidity. It's actually just ignorance. Ignorance of a lot of things.

Our system sucks. Everyone agrees on this point EXCEPT for Republicans when their team is winning, at which point they switch from "the system sucks" to "our forefathers were the wisest people to ever inhabit the planet, Oh say can you seeee?" To everyone else, our system sucks, all the time.

Millions of people have no time and/or desire to actually examine the millions of intricacies that lead to the suckage. It's super easy for them to just say both parties are responsible, and that attitude comes with a very rewarding ego boost. For absolutely no work, they get to claim the enlightened badge of honor that Democrats can't claim because they are still sheep. It can't possibly be that some people are Democrats because they have actually weighed hundreds of factors and come to a completely logical decision. And so, their ideal candidate is anyone they view as "not part of the shitty system," whether it be Sanders or Green Party or Libertarian or crappy game show host.

You see, they decided first that Democrats suck, and THEN some of them started looking for evidence to support that belief. Guess what? There's TONS of it out there! Democrats do suck! They are people with flaws, unlike enlightened bothsiders. No matter how many times Democrats do the right thing, it will never overcome the hundreds of examples we can find where they fucked up. It doesn't matter if Democrats do thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of good things, because I have handy links to hundreds of examples of them doing bad things.

They never bother to examine the Republicans. They don't have to. They've already conceded that Republicans are bad, why do any work to figure out how bad? Bad is bad. Nobody is trying to convince them that Republicans are good. Even Republicans know Republicans are bad and they aren't trying to convince anyone differently. They are working hard to convince everyone that Democrats are just as bad or worse, and gee doesn't that tune play nicely with "independents'" own jingle.

Even assuming a bothsider was intelligent enough to understand that there are quite a few shades of grey between good and bad, or even between bad and fucking malicious, they still need to have the time and motivation to actually analyze and examine all the factors that led to a bad decision. On top of that, if they have already decided that both sides are just as bad, the reward for that effort is pain to their tender egos. Much easier to just burn it all down.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
66,608
2,265
126
People are quick to claim stupidity because on the surface it certainly looks a lot like stupidity. It's actually just ignorance. Ignorance of a lot of things.

Our system sucks. Everyone agrees on this point EXCEPT for Republicans when their team is winning, at which point they switch from "the system sucks" to "our forefathers were the wisest people to ever inhabit the planet, Oh say can you seeee?" To everyone else, our system sucks, all the time.

Millions of people have no time and/or desire to actually examine the millions of intricacies that lead to the suckage. It's super easy for them to just say both parties are responsible, and that attitude comes with a very rewarding ego boost. For absolutely no work, they get to claim the enlightened badge of honor that Democrats can't claim because they are still sheep. It can't possibly be that some people are Democrats because they have actually weighed hundreds of factors and come to a completely logical decision. And so, their ideal candidate is anyone they view as "not part of the shitty system," whether it be Sanders or Green Party or Libertarian or crappy game show host.

You see, they decided first that Democrats suck, and THEN some of them started looking for evidence to support that belief. Guess what? There's TONS of it out there! Democrats do suck! They are people with flaws, unlike enlightened bothsiders. No matter how many times Democrats do the right thing, it will never overcome the hundreds of examples we can find where they fucked up. It doesn't matter if Democrats do thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of good things, because I have handy links to hundreds of examples of them doing bad things.

They never bother to examine the Republicans. They don't have to. They've already conceded that Republicans are bad, why do any work to figure out how bad? Bad is bad. Nobody is trying to convince them that Republicans are good. Even Republicans know Republicans are bad and they aren't trying to convince anyone differently. They are working hard to convince everyone that Democrats are just as bad or worse, and gee doesn't that tune play nicely with "independents'" own jingle.

Even assuming a bothsider was intelligent enough to understand that there are quite a few shades of grey between good and bad, or even between bad and fucking malicious, they still need to have the time and motivation to actually analyze and examine all the factors that led to a bad decision. On top of that, if they have already decided that both sides are just as bad, the reward for that effort is pain to their tender egos. Much easier to just burn it all down.
The Biden Democrats do not agree that the system sucks. They think Trump sucks, but the system is generally fine. Only Bernie points out that the system itself is the problem.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
57,948
10,331
126
The Biden Democrats do not agree that the system sucks. They think Trump sucks, but the system is generally fine. Only Bernie points out that the system itself is the problem.
The reason the system sucks is because we've allowed the GOP to have entirely too much say in how it's structured & run for the last 40 years. Republican governance is a self fulfilling prophesy of greed & incompetence. Shee-it, Sherlock. They're burning it down for you.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
66,608
2,265
126
The reason the system sucks is because we've allowed the GOP to have entirely too much say in how it's structured & run for the last 40 years. Republican governance is a self fulfilling prophesy of greed & incompetence. Shee-it, Sherlock. They're burning it down for you.
Cool story bro, srsly. Only Bernie points these things out, the Dem Party thinks the problem is Trump. they are willing to slightly tweak parts of the system, but nothing close to ending Reaganism.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,631
1,510
126
Cool story bro, srsly. Only Bernie points these things out, the Dem Party thinks the problem is Trump. they are willing to slightly tweak parts of the system, but nothing close to ending Reaganism.
Not sure, but I think I remember one of the candidates saying he would consider a Republican VP. Racking my brain, it will come to me...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
66,627
14,102
136
The Biden Democrats do not agree that the system sucks. They think Trump sucks, but the system is generally fine. Only Bernie points out that the system itself is the problem.
I am now fully in support of Biden and I think the system sucks. What I do know is a shitty system without Trump is better than a shitty system with him.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
66,608
2,265
126
I am now fully in support of Biden and I think the system sucks. What I do know is a shitty system without Trump is better than a shitty system with him.
Biden needs to dropout, if defeating Trump is the goal.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
65,530
2,549
126
The reason the system sucks is because we've allowed the GOP to have entirely too much say in how it's structured & run for the last 40 years. Republican governance is a self fulfilling prophesy of greed & incompetence. Shee-it, Sherlock. They're burning it down for you.
Yes we have, Democrats constantly compromising over everything because of their liberal brain defect calling people stupid instead of having any capacity to know what conservatives feel and that the only thing they understand and will moderate their actions over is intimidation and fear. The things that drive conservative brains are ancient in origin and deeply fixed in our genes and you can't just poo poo them away. They are there because they were selected for because they help us survive. Liberals are limited by their lack of understanding of a whole range of moral concerns that are dangerously tragic under modern social conditions and liberals need to learn how to manage them. That can only be done by knowing what messages they need to hear in order to prevent black swan psychopaths from using them to gain power. And that can only be done via real understanding. That also won't happen as long as liberals are in denial of the fact they themselves become conservative as conditions worsen.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
66,608
2,265
126
I'm going to go out on a limb and say the guy who soundly defeated all opponents in the primary and consistently polls the best against Trump not only nationally but in the crucial swing states dropping out is probably not the best way to defeat Trump.
Have you seen him the last few days?

He hasn't soundly defeated anyone. Without the Super Tuesday dropouts orchestrated behind the scenes he'd be struggling. His Cognitive Decline is getting worse and even people who support him are having a difficult time maintaining their Brave Face.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
25,142
4,648
126
The Biden Democrats do not agree that the system sucks. They think Trump sucks, but the system is generally fine. Only Bernie points out that the system itself is the problem.
This is false. Most Democrats, including those that support Biden, support abolishing the EC for starters. Most also support overturning CU and getting money out of politics.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
3,606
2,290
136
Only Bernie points out that the system itself is the problem.
And then he doesn't articulate to the swing voters how he's going to fix it...

Bernie: We can't allow greedy billionaires and corporations to ruin our economy!

Voter: But what would you DO?

Bernie :We are determined to take back our economy from the billionaires and corporations that are ruining it!

Voter: How?

Bernie: On day one we will enact laws that will stop the billionaires and corporations from ruining our economy and country!

Voter: What laws, specifically?

Bernie: Laws that will show the corporations and billionaires that their time is up. The American people have said, enough is enough! We will dramatically reduce wealth inequality. Let's be clear, the time is now to create an economy that works for all of us, not just the top 1%.

Voter: How? ......oh, never mind. *sigh*

Bernie Sanders, the consummate 'outsider' even within the institutions he has been a part of for nearly three decades, has neither the political clout nor the negotiation skills to achieve even the least of his goals. Even if he could win the general vote, which is questionable; despite his vocal base, he does not have the broad appeal to pull the kind of typically indifferent voters out of the woodwork the way Obama did and Hillary totally failed to do. He can't hope to influence the majority of Congress to support his agenda. He could use his vocal base to sway a more centrist candidate -- even the milquetoast Joe Biden -- to push at least some of the parts of his progressive agenda, and open the door to the voting public that 'socialism' isn't some existential evil but is actually the basis for some of the most popular and effective programs that the federal government provides. But he is just an all-or-nothing personality in both policy and manner, and thus would not accomplish anything as President.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
66,608
2,265
126
This is false. Most Democrats, including those that support Biden, support abolishing the EC for starters. Most also support overturning CU and getting money out of politics.
Those barely scratch the surface and, especially EC, are not going to be solved anytime soon.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
66,627
14,102
136
Have you seen him the last few days?

He hasn't soundly defeated anyone. Without the Super Tuesday dropouts orchestrated behind the scenes he'd be struggling. His Cognitive Decline is getting worse and even people who support him are having a difficult time maintaining their Brave Face.
Fivethirtyeight gives him a a 98% chance of winning a majority of delegates and a greater than 99% chance of winning a plurality of delegates, something Sanders agrees should make him the nominee as well. It's over.

As for his Capitalized Cognitive Decline 1) there's no meaningful evidence of that and 2) even if it were accurate that just means Sanders couldn't even beat a senile guy. I've never understood why Sanders supporters think his inability to defeat a mentally impaired person is an argument for his electability.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
66,608
2,265
126
And then he doesn't articulate to the swing voters how he's going to fix it...

Bernie: We can't allow greedy billionaires and corporations to ruin our economy!

Voter: But what would you DO?

Bernie :We are determined to take back our economy from the billionaires and corporations that are ruining it!

Voter: How?

Bernie: On day one we will enact laws that will stop the billionaires and corporations from ruining our economy and country!

Voter: What laws, specifically?

Bernie: Laws that will show the corporations and billionaires that their time is up. The American people have said, enough is enough! We will dramatically reduce wealth inequality. Let's be clear, the time is now to create an economy that works for all of us, not just the top 1%.

Voter: How? ......oh, never mind. *sigh*

Bernie Sanders, the consummate 'outsider' even within the institutions he has been a part of for nearly three decades, has neither the political clout nor the negotiation skills to achieve even the least of his goals. Even if he could win the general vote, which is questionable; despite his vocal base, he does not have the broad appeal to pull the kind of typically indifferent voters out of the woodwork the way Obama did and Hillary totally failed to do. He can't hope to influence the majority of Congress to support his agenda. He could use his vocal base to sway a more centrist candidate -- even the milquetoast Joe Biden -- to push at least some of the parts of his progressive agenda, and open the door to the voting public that 'socialism' isn't some existential evil but is actually the basis for some of the most popular and effective programs that the federal government provides. But he is just an all-or-nothing personality in both policy and manner, and thus would not accomplish anything as President.
Voters are not asking those questions. In fact, they generally agree with Bernie. What is motivating the Democratic Primary Voters is this notion of "Electibility". On that front, Biden simply is not up for the job. His Cognitive Decline is getting worse before our eyes.
 

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