The IAEA says Iranian Nukes talks at dead end.

[alchemize]

Obama is going to bomb Iran in June. Sy Hersh and Scott Ritter told me.

 

[fskimospy]

I always hear about how Iran is 'crazy' and it baffles me. Can anyone point to an action that Iran has taken that is anything other than rational?

 

[surfsatwerk]

I always hear about how Iran is 'crazy' and it baffles me. Can anyone point to an action that Iran has taken that is anything other than rational?

Arresting women for exposing their neck in public.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I always hear about how Iran is 'crazy' and it baffles me. Can anyone point to an action that Iran has taken that is anything other than rational?

If you think a totalitarian Muslim regime is anything but crazy, well, I can only hope you don't encounter one in real life.

(But if you insist, how about funding, training and arming Hizballah, hanging people off cranes, faking military exercises, executing gays and raped women, torturing protesters to death, media and Internet censorship... all depends on what constitutes "crazy" for you)

 

[Lemon law]

Israel is quite crazy in its own right, politically dominated by bat shit crazy settler parties that will assassinate Israeli politicians that don't knuckle under to their demands. Meanwhile Israel has WMD and has used it on their neighbors on numerous occasions.

Its quite clear Israeli policies places itself on a collision course with their neighbors and the only remaining question is how long can the USA prop up such a religious state that is not a signatory to the non nuclear proliferation treaty.

Given that non signatory status, its totally absurd that Israel should presume itself able to be the not appointed police enforcer of such a treaty. And to talk openly about its desire to bomb Iran.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Lemon law, I find it amusing how your arguments escalate - and degenerate - each and every day, until the point you've long detached yourself from the confinement of reality and switched to a parallel one...

Israel is quite crazy in its own right, politically dominated by bat shit crazy settler parties that will assassinate Israeli politicians that don't knuckle under to their demands.

What is the electoral size of the aforementioned "settler parties"? The vast majority are not settler parties by any means. The ones I can claim are "settler parties" - as part of their agenda or specifically made of settlers - are about 20% of the parliament.

Meanwhile Israel has WMD and has used it on their neighbors on numerous occasions.

This is new to me - care to elaborate?

Its quite clear Israeli policies places itself on a collision course with their neighbors

No problem with Jordan or Egypt (both siding with Israel in latest conflicts). Israel is well armed for a collision with either Lebanon (through Hizballah) or Syria, which is legitimate. I don't see a reason to make peace with regimes such as Assad's.

and the only remaining question is how long can the USA prop up such a religious state that is not a signatory to the non nuclear proliferation treaty.

Israel is not more Jewish than the US is Chrisitian. You're welcome to show otherwise. It is a national - not religious - home for Jewish, which is somewhat of an ethnicity anyway. For such a "religious state", it has an awful lot of Muslims and Christians, too...

Given that non signatory status, its totally absurd that Israel should presume itself able to be the not appointed police enforcer of such a treaty. And to talk openly about its desire to bomb Iran.

Israel doesn't give a flying fuck about the NPT, it does greatly care about a nuclear opponent. It might not seem just for your allegedly objective, non-biased, non-prejudiced opinion, but if Israel wants to go on for another 60 years, it better get up in arms and do something to stop this. The Jew sitting in Tel Aviv, threatened nearly weekly by a Mullah run theocracy that doesn't even share a common border, that sponsors, trains and arms his greatest enemies, doesn't know much about your relative justice or revised history.
Unlike any other time in history, however, this Jew is more than capable of taking preemptive initiatives to stop a 2nd holocaust -which coming to think of it, was the original intent of Israel.

You see, before taking good care of the Palestinians, appeasing Mullahs, giving a flying fuck about the international community or caring about UN assemblies, Israel was born to protect the Jews from prosecution.
Only in the UN fantasy world do you peacefully solve such situations. In my eyes, every move Israel takes against Iran is justified, preemptively nuking included. Things should be very, very clear on this - Jews would kill everyone in their path and not be collectively annihilated as before.

 

[EagleKeeper]

LL and others feel that WP and cluster bombs qualify as WMD

 

[0marTheZealot]

This entire mess is so hypocritical. Iran is subject to IAEA inspectors because they signed the NPT. Israel is not a signor to the NPT and can stockpile nuclear weapons freely.

Morale of the story? Don't fucking sign that garbage treaty.

 

[fskimospy]

If you think a totalitarian Muslim regime is anything but crazy, well, I can only hope you don't encounter one in real life.

(But if you insist, how about funding, training and arming Hizballah, hanging people off cranes, faking military exercises, executing gays and raped women, torturing protesters to death, media and Internet censorship... all depends on what constitutes "crazy" for you)

Zero of these things constitute 'crazy' to me and I have visited countries under the control of totalitarian Muslim regimes. Have you?

You seem to be confusing repressive domestic policy with insanity. I don't see how any of those brutal and oppressive things that they are doing are insane, they are simply brutal and oppressive. They certainly aren't crazier than things that happen in other countries all over the world. (how about strapping someone to a chair and electrocuting them to death for crazy?)

We're not talking about if they are doing things we LIKE, people describe Iran as if it is a place that is irrational, that cannot be reasoned with, and who would 'gladly blow themselves up to get to heaven'. I am looking for examples from their historical foreign policy record that illustrates this.

How is funding/training/arming Hizballah 'crazy'? Please be specific.

How is having a fake military exercise 'crazy'? Please be specific.

How is censoring the internet 'crazy'?

How is oppressing dissidents 'crazy'?

Remember, we're not talking about if these are policies we think are good or bad, but if they are crazy or not. As I've said before, the dismissal of hostile regimes as insane is a common thing the US public does, and it is foolish.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Zero of these things constitute 'crazy' to me and I have visited countries under the control of totalitarian Muslim regimes. Have you?

You seem to be confusing repressive domestic policy with insanity. I don't see how any of those brutal and oppressive things that they are doing are insane, they are simply brutal and oppressive. They certainly aren't crazier than things that happen in other countries all over the world. (how about strapping someone to a chair and electrocuting them to death for crazy?)

We're not talking about if they are doing things we LIKE, people describe Iran as if it is a place that is irrational, that cannot be reasoned with, and who would 'gladly blow themselves up to get to heaven'. I am looking for examples from their historical foreign policy record that illustrates this.

How is funding/training/arming Hizballah 'crazy'? Please be specific.

How is having a fake military exercise 'crazy'? Please be specific.

How is censoring the internet 'crazy'?

How is oppressing dissidents 'crazy'?

Remember, we're not talking about if these are policies we think are good or bad, but if they are crazy or not. As I've said before, the dismissal of hostile regimes as insane is a common thing the US public does, and it is foolish.

Crazy in the sense that they aren't subject to the same system of values and judgment that we are. Crazy in the sense Ahmadinejad claims to be the Disappearing Imam, crazy in the sense that they might do things on the behalf of god, which might not be very rational for us.
It's sure not crazy for them, though.

 

[fskimospy]

Crazy in the sense that they aren't subject to the same system of values and judgment that we are. Crazy in the sense Ahmadinejad claims to be the Disappearing Imam, crazy in the sense that they might do things on the behalf of god, which might not be very rational for us.
It's sure not crazy for them, though.

What values and judgments do they take that are 'crazy' that affect their foreign policy? Referring to actions, not rhetoric.

Claims by Ahmadinejad, an official with zero real power, don't really impress me as to the insanity of a nation or its policies.

What specific things do you think Iran will do on the behalf of god that are irrational?

What specific foreign policy actions have they taken in the past on behalf of god that are irrational?

 

[Jaskalas]

The fact that the world looks at them worried if they want weapons is what really bothers me. I dont understand why the world is acting so weak against a country like Iran. They are letting Iran feel like they are all powerful like Russia, China, the US, or EU. The world needs to collectively give Iran an ultimatum or suffer economic consequences. Unless they are so passionate to destroy Israel they will stop in their tracks and start listening to the world, because after that bull shit election im sure many people in Iran are ready for a civil war.

The world is divided and Iran is on the side that opposes the United States. This includes members of the UN security council. As such, the UN is powerless to stop nuclear weapons development.

Iran knows who its allies are, and this emboldens them to carry on.

 

[Patranus]

All the while Iran continues to give Obama the middle finger.

 

[Lemon law]

All the while Iran continues to give Obama the middle finger.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correction, all the while, both Iran and Israel continue to give Obama the middle finger.

Is there a dimes worth of difference?

It may come as shocking surprise to some on this forum, but the USA cannot dictate to the UN and the world community, and doing something effective about either Iran or Israel takes majority world co-operation.

Simply something the GWB did not have and Obama does not have either.

But now that Iran has all but totally withdrawn from the nuclear non proliferation treaty,
Iran and Israel are now on exactly equally footing.

 

[CPA]

I thought the solution to Iran (not to mention N Korea and other evils across the world) was to sit down and talk. What happened?

 

[fskimospy]

I thought the solution to Iran (not to mention N Korea and other evils across the world) was to sit down and talk. What happened?

I don't know. In what world was this?

What was presented was the fact that diplomacy should always be our first resort, not our last resort, and that talking to our enemies not only gives us the opportunity to solve problems nonviolently, but lends credibility to actions we take later.

Did you confuse that policy with 'the solution to Iran and other evils around the world was to talk'?

 

[palehorse]

More Iranian peace and love brought to you by their pet terrorists:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast...+(RSS:+Top+Stories)&utm_content=Google+Reader

 

[Zebo]

More Iranian peace and love brought to you by their pet terrorists:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast...+(RSS:+Top+Stories)&utm_content=Google+Reader

Lemon could be a Hezbolla Spokesman. Oh wait...

 

[SamurAchzar]

Lemon could be a Hezbolla Spokesman. Oh wait...

LOL Just what I was thinking. Funny thing is we could be anonymously hosting Nassarallah here on P&N and I don't think he'll stand out as a radical...

 

[Patranus]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correction, all the while, both Iran and Israel continue to give Obama the middle finger.

Is there a dimes worth of difference?

It may come as shocking surprise to some on this forum, but the USA cannot dictate to the UN and the world community, and doing something effective about either Iran or Israel takes majority world co-operation.

Simply something the GWB did not have and Obama does not have either.

But now that Iran has all but totally withdrawn from the nuclear non proliferation treaty,
Iran and Israel are now on exactly equally footing.

I agree but also disagree.
Without the US there is no UN. Simple as that.
If the US didn't use this fact to further its own agenda then government is not doing its job for the people of the US.

 

[SamurAchzar]

What values and judgments do they take that are 'crazy' that affect their foreign policy? Referring to actions, not rhetoric.

Their provoking, belligerent rhetoric is enough to warrant some concern for anyone within their projected launch range.

Claims by Ahmadinejad, an official with zero real power, don't really impress me as to the insanity of a nation or its policies.

Putting this man in charge is a statement, and not a relaxing one.

What specific things do you think Iran will do on the behalf of god that are irrational?

I think it will wage some sort of Jihad. While the chance of directly attacking anyone with their nukes is pretty remote, it will provide them a defensive umbrella to really start pushing other countries around in the ME. In fact, there are other countries that need to worry first, before Israel.

What specific foreign policy actions have they taken in the past on behalf of god that are irrational?

Define irrational. They are going for a clash with the international community, including sanctions, to pursue nuclear weapon. It's rational for some, irrational for others.

 

[fskimospy]

Their provoking, belligerent rhetoric is enough to warrant some concern for anyone within their projected launch range.



Putting this man in charge is a statement, and not a relaxing one.



I think it will wage some sort of Jihad. While the chance of directly attacking anyone with their nukes is pretty remote, it will provide them a defensive umbrella to really start pushing other countries around in the ME. In fact, there are other countries that need to worry first, before Israel.



Define irrational. They are going for a clash with the international community, including sanctions, to pursue nuclear weapon. It's rational for some, irrational for others.

Belligerent rhetoric is certainly cause for alarm from their neighbors, but I'm still waiting to hear why a country acting like that is 'crazy'. The US issues belligerent rhetoric to other countries and furthermore has actually acted upon it, yet I wouldn't consider us crazy. Oh, and Ahmadinejad is not in charge.

You can use the dictionary definition of irrational if you want. The pursuit of a nuclear weapon by a country with as tenuous a national security as Iran is completely rational. I really think you are confusing actions Iran takes that we don't like with actions that are crazy. They are nowhere close to the same thing, and that was my original point. They have been labeled as insane people willing to destroy themselves to take down the infidel but you can't name a single solitary foreign policy action Iran has taken that is crazy.

So like I said before, we call our enemies nuts at our own peril. They aren't crazy, they are our enemies. Confusing the two makes us weaker and them stronger.