The hypocrisy of non-war supporters

[HeroOfPellinor]

Annan, speaking earlier at a joint news conference in Berlin with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, urged the Bush administration to reconsider, calling the limiting of contracts unfortunate and not helpful for restoring transatlantic relations hurt by the war.

?It is up to those who took the decision to reverse it or maintain it and I hope something will be done about it,? Annan said. ?It is time we tried to rebuild international consensus and work together and pool our efforts ... to stabilize Iraq.?

Schroeder, for his part, said that international law must apply and that it was the task of all countries to help with reconstruction in Iraq.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1003413.asp?pne=11947&0ct=-300

How is having your companies profit from contracts without you contributing a damn thing "helping" with the reconstruction? Sounds more like helping yourself. You want to "help" with the reconstruction and stabilization, then send troops or money, or else shut up and take your rightful place as footnotes during this time in history. Kthx.

 

[Witling]

Yeah, Hero. I'm with you. Let the U.S. and Britain handle it by themselves.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Whitling
Yeah, Hero. I'm with you. Let the U.S. and Britain handle it by themselves.

Italy and Spain and Poland and others have already sent thousands of troops. Other countries like Canada and Japan have sent money. Korea may send troops. Help is welcome from anybody. Pitching in no troops or money and trying to get your companies to profit from the rebuilding is NOT "help" and is NOT welcome.

My original post pointed out that the non-war supporters are saying one thing and doing another.

 

[CaptnKirk]

The way that they are dumping on those who didn't 'Support' the Bush Agenda,
but continued to help elsewhere - Canada for example, will make it a mighty
lonely road for the US, Brittan, and Microgoatscrewastan, and a big stick-it
to the American Taxpayer - as the money is funneled to Hallibutron and Bechtel.

Watch for some nations to withdraw thier financial aid after getting slapped like this.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
The way that they are dumping on those who didn't 'Support' the Bush Agenda,
but continued to help elsewhere - Canada for example, will make it a mighty
lonely road for the US, Brittan, and Microgoatscrewastan, and a big stick-it
to the American Taxpayer - as the money is funneled to Hallibutron and Bechtel.

Watch for some nations to withdraw thier financial aid after getting slapped like this.

Canada is the only example I can think of and I doubt they won't repeal their exlusion if, in fact, Canada DID contribute that money to the coalition efforts and didn't actually spend the money on one of their socialist programs and call it contributing.

 

[chess9]

Actually, I agree with you. I think they should just give Bush the collective finger.

Regardless of the few small merits of the approach used by Wolfy the Warmonger, the way it was handled was so typical of the callousness and stupidity of the Bush administration even our allies must be shaking their heads.

Oh, and as a taxpayer you may be certain that I do not want the most qualified contractor to handle the job. Please, let's pay as much as possible for dreck.

-Robert

 

[Moonbeam]

The Germans should be happy that we attacked Iraq in an illegal agressive, premiditated, preemptive unilateral way. It's takes some of the stain of what they did to the Checks and Poles. So far we're paying 87 billion in reparations. But it's only a start. And we've become the nomber one worlds greatest threat. Not bad for a cowboy even if he's a moron.

 

[Bitek]

You've got to be willing to give a little to get a little...(this goes both ways)


I just wouldn't be suprised for Russia/France/Germany, and whoever else, to give the finger right back and refuse to waive any of the $Billions in debt Iraq owes them. (Russia has already said this.)

 

[DealMonkey]

On one hand the U.S. is asking for Europe's help in Iraq and on the other hand we're telling them to piss off. Mixed signals to say the least. Not to mention that many countries were opposed to the war on various levels - meaning, they didn't send troops because the didn't believe in the war itself, or they objected because of the will of their people. Why would you penalize these countries for standing up for what they believe in? Now that the U.S. has done what it thought it had to do, why can't you seperate the post-war reconstruction from the war itself? Are they not two seperate issues?

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Hafen
You've got to be willing to give a little to get a little...(this goes both ways)


I just wouldn't be suprized for Russia/France/Germany and whoever else to give the finger right back and refuse to waive any of the $Billions in debt Iraq owes them. (Russia has already said this.)

True, but, they're likely to get their money back a LOT sooner if they send a couple thousand troops just to help protect the oil pipelines and they can even say they're "helping" the reconstruction that way and not look like little bitches. Of course, they could "help" the stabilization and reconstruction by forgiving their debts too if they like...but it doesn't look like "helping" is what they're really looking for does it?

 

[Genesys]

answer this question, what have any of the non war supporters [France, Germany, Russia, et all] done to DESERVE a chance to make money off of rebuilding Iraq? not a damn thing, thats what! they contributed no money, no troops, and no time to even help in war planning. their soldiers blood has not been spilled, their money has not been spent to fund a war, and now they think they can get a piece of profiteering action!

 

[preslove]

How is having your companies profit from contracts without you contributing a damn thing "helping" with the reconstruction?

if you did any reading then you would know that Canada pledged ~$225 million to rebuild iraq. Under the pentagon guidelines their companies can't bid. Paul Martin said that they will have to reevaluate their pledges. Seems like the bushies are shooting themselves in the foot.

edit:

now they think they can get a piece of profiteering action!

How dare they want to profiteer?!! Profiteering is the perogative of Haliburton!!!! consider how much $ they've invested in bush/cheney!

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Genesys
answer this question, what have any of the non war supporters [France, Germany, Russia, et all] done to DESERVE a chance to make money off of rebuilding Iraq? not a damn thing, thats what! they contributed no money, no troops, and no time to even help in war planning. their soldiers blood has not been spilled, their money has not been spent to fund a war, and now they think they can get a piece of profiteering action!

Okay, how about this? The U.S. pays them back the money Iraq owes them and everyone goes their separate ways.

 

[Witling]

Moonbeam, what the Germans did to the Poles and Chezks was more than 60 years ago. Do you want to raise the issues of Nicauragua, Chile, and, that terror of terrors, Grenada?

 

[onelove]

as little as I care for what has been done to date, it would seem only fair that any country sending contractors share in the effort of protecting those contractors as they do the work.

However, this is not really how the issue was presented by the administration; seems more like a snub. Probably not unforseeable from Germany/France/Russia's perspective - their protests are probably good for German domestic consumption.

 

[jpeyton]

The Bush administration will eventually rot for this, just like their ill-fated decision on imported steel tariffs came back to bite them in the ass.

 

[Corn]

Okay, how about this? The U.S. pays them back the money Iraq owes them and everyone goes their separate ways.

Or how about this? Saddam and his Baath party pays them back the money *they* borrowed. Hey, France and Russia knew the risks of lending SH billions of $'s. I'm sure these loans were priced according to their risk.

As an aside, I rather like the idea of keeping taxpayer money in the fold, with the neat little benefit of some of that money ending right back into government coffers.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The Bush administration will eventually rot for this, just like their ill-fated decision on imported steel tariffs came back to bite them in the ass.

You're suggesting there is a similarity to the steel tarrif issue?

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Hafen
You've got to be willing to give a little to get a little...(this goes both ways)


I just wouldn't be suprized for Russia/France/Germany and whoever else to give the finger right back and refuse to waive any of the $Billions in debt Iraq owes them. (Russia has already said this.)

True, but, they're likely to get their money back a LOT sooner if they send a couple thousand troops just to help protect the oil pipelines and they can even say they're "helping" the reconstruction that way and not look like little bitches. Of course, they could "help" the stabilization and reconstruction by forgiving their debts too if they like...but it doesn't look like "helping" is what they're really looking for does it?

This seems to be turning into an international game of chicken IMO, and neither side is willing to flinch. What worries me is that we have a lot more to lose than they do. If they don't budge, they get to stand by thier principals as they see them, not anger their voters, and end up just losing some money in debt and lucrative contracts (and be more in line with world opinion.)

On the other hand, our guys are in the firing line and our wallet is flowing. If we piss them off enough, they may be content to sit and watch us eat a sh!t sandwich, and just press their case through the WTO/UN etc. instead of having to deal with us. It seems too many egos are involved to do something sensible. I'm pissed as it seems I (as a taxpayer) will get alot of my money wasted, and some of my countrymen killed\injured because we couldn't swallow a little pride and ask for some help and make a few compromises when things haven't gone as planned. I don't mean for just this little crisis, but this whole fiasco has pretty much gone this way.

Thickheadedness is a sign of immaturity IMO.

 

[Wolfdog]

It shouldn't matter if they supported the war or not. It comes down to doing what is best for iraq. Plain and simple. If another country can provide a required service for less with the same quality then they should be able to do it. It needs to be less about feeding Bush's ego and more about doing what is right for the people there. The last I heard some of the contracts awarded to US companies haven't done what they were supposed to. They are late and inefficient in thier duties. Which hurts the Iraqi people directly. Months back this could be shown by the inability of the US to fix thier main power plant. It had been months upon months and still they were drawing up a plan. They had used asbestos in the plant. The US based company hadn't done squat. So it comes down to who can fix it faster or better. US companies can't always do the job better, the ones who can should. The companies who can't should be fired. The work done over there needs to be surrounded not by the fact that they didn't support the illegal overthrow of a government, it needs to be about making right for those people quickly. So we can pull out our troops.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Corn

Okay, how about this? The U.S. pays them back the money Iraq owes them and everyone goes their separate ways.

Or how about this? Saddam and his Baath party pays them back the money *they* borrowed. Hey, France and Russia knew the risks of lending SH billions of $'s. I'm sure these loans were priced according to their risk.

As an aside, I rather like the idea of keeping taxpayer money in the fold, with the neat little benefit of some of that money ending right back into government coffers.

Hell, good point. Why are we even asking old Europe and the chocolate makers to forgive the loans? Why don't we just give 'em the finger and tell 'em they're SoL?

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Genesys
answer this question, what have any of the non war supporters [France, Germany, Russia, et all] done to DESERVE a chance to make money off of rebuilding Iraq? not a damn thing, thats what! they contributed no money, no troops, and no time to even help in war planning. their soldiers blood has not been spilled, their money has not been spent to fund a war, and now they think they can get a piece of profiteering action!

Answer this then, who get to decide who deserve a chance to make money off of rebuilding Iraq? American?

Last time I checked, Bush still claiming American are there to liberate not occupy. So how does a non-occupying force get to decide who gets to profit in Iraq? Isn't that Iraqi's decision since it is their country?

Go with the reason you cited, if a country invade another country and won, it is by their right to profit from the invasion since they spent the money, plan the war and their soldier spilled blood?

The arguement come down to this, what is American's role in Iraq? From the look of it and how people argue in this board, there is no question that American sees Iraqi as their backyard and decide anything they sees fit for the Iraqis.

And American still wonder why people see them as occupiers and there is anti-American sentiment?

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The Bush administration will eventually rot for this, just like their ill-fated decision on imported steel tariffs came back to bite them in the ass.

You're suggesting there is a similarity to the steel tarrif issue?

Yes, they're both poor decisions made by incompetant members of the Bush administration, that pissed off several European countries. What Bush doesn't realize is that the leaders of said European countries would rather retaliate than concede.

Overall, Bush is probably doing those countries a favor by keeping them from bidding on Iraqi contracts. Iraq is a snake pit and the only way order will be restored is if a snake is elected as their leader. Any foriegners will just continue being bit until they leave.

 

[chess9]

Hafen:

You've come close to exposing what is the real danger for the U.S. We have so badly alienated our traditional allies that if we have a serious problem here will they help us the way they helped in Afghanistan? I don't think so. Although the U.S. can handle any conflict from a military perspective, we cannot handle all conflicts (actually, that should read "NO CONFLICTS") from political, moral, or financial perspectives.

Before you tell your mother to go F+++ OFF perhaps you should stop and consider the consequences?

Also, being of French extraction I wan't to thank Jimmy Carter for reminding me about the important part the French played in the American Revolution. We have our freedom in large part because the French hated the British so much they were willing to trudge over here to kill them. I'd suggest the right wing wackos on the Fox Cartoon Network give a bow to my ancestors for their First Amendment right to be complete morons.

-Robert

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: chess9
Hafen:

You've come close to exposing what is the real danger for the U.S. We have so badly alienated our traditional allies that if we have a serious problem here will they help us the way they helped in Afghanistan? I don't think so. Although the U.S. can handle any conflict from a military perspective, we cannot handle all conflicts (actually, that should read "NO CONFLICTS") from political, moral, or financial perspectives.

Before you tell your mother to go F+++ OFF perhaps you should stop and consider the consequences?

Also, being of French extraction I wan't to thank Jimmy Carter for reminding me about the important part the French played in the American Revolution. We have our freedom in large part because the French hated the British so much they were willing to trudge over here to kill them. I'd suggest the right wing wackos on the Fox Cartoon Network give a bow to my ancestors for their First Amendment right to be complete morons.

-Robert

Good to see someone still remembers the role france played in Americas independence. But knowing some peoples short attension span, I'm pretty sure most have forgoten this