The hundred years' war

Perknose

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A resonably short synopsis of the roots, challenges and history of the Palestinian conflict, from The Economist

Like it or not from whichever 'side' you see this from, it cuts to the nub of the matter, imho.

WITH luck, the destructive two-week battle between Israel and Hamas may soon draw to an end. But how long before the century-long war between Arabs and Jews in Palestine follows suit? It is hard to believe that this will happen any time soon. Consider: Israel?s current operation, ?Cast Lead?, marks the fourth time Israel has fought its way into Gaza. It almost captured Gaza (behind a pocket containing a young Egyptian army officer called Gamal Abdul Nasser) in 1948, in the war Israelis know as their war of independence. It captured Gaza again in 1956, as part of a secret plan hatched with Britain and France to topple Nasser as Egypt?s president and restore British control of the Suez Canal. It invaded a third time during the six-day war of 1967?and stayed there for 38 years, until withdrawing unilaterally three and a half years ago.


Why they fight

And Gaza, remember, is only one item in a mighty catalogue of misery, whose entries are inscribed in tears. The Jews and Arabs of Palestine have been fighting off and on for 100 years. In 1909 the mostly Russian socialist idealists of the Zionist movement set up an armed group, Hashomer, to protect their new farms and villages in Palestine from Arab marauders. Since then has come the dismal march of wars?1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 2006 and now 2009?each seared by blood and fire into the conflicting myths and memories of the two sides. The intervals between the wars have not been filled by peace but by bombs, raids, uprisings and atrocities. Israeli settlers in Hebron today still cite, as if it were yesterday, the massacre of Hebron?s Jews in 1929. The Arabs of Palestine still remember their desperate revolt in the 1930s against the British mandate and Jewish immigration from Europe, and the massacres of 1948.

The slaughter this week in Gaza, in which on one day alone some 40 civilians, many children, were killed in a single salvo of Israeli shells, will pour fresh poison into the brimming well of hate (see article). But a conflict that has lasted 100 years is not susceptible to easy solutions or glib judgments. Those who choose to reduce it to the ?terrorism? of one side or the ?colonialism? of the other are just stroking their own prejudices. At heart, this is a struggle of two peoples for the same patch of land. It is not the sort of dispute in which enemies push back and forth over a line until they grow tired. It is much less tractable than that, because it is also about the periodic claim of each side that the other is not a people at all?at least not a people deserving sovereign statehood in the Middle East.

That is one reason why this conflict grinds on remorselessly from decade to decade. During eruptions of violence, the mantra of diplomats and editorialists is the need for a two-state solution. It sounds so simple: if two peoples cannot share the land, they must divide it. This seemed obvious to some outsiders even before the Nazi genocide of Europe?s Jews prompted the United Nations in 1947 to call for the creation of separate Jewish and Arab states in Palestine. In 1937 a British royal commission concluded that ?an irrepressible conflict has arisen between two national communities within the narrow bounds of one small country.? The answer had to be partition.

The fact that the Arabs rejected the UN?s partition plan of 60 years ago has long given ideological comfort to Israel and its supporters. Abba Eban, an Israeli foreign minister, quipped that the Palestinians ?never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity?. Israel?s story is that the Arabs have muffed at least four chances to have a Palestinian state. They could have said yes to partition in 1947. They could have made peace after the war of 1947-48. They had another chance after Israel routed its neighbours in 1967 (?We are just waiting for a telephone call,? said Moshe Dayan, Israel?s hero of that war). They had yet another in 2000 when Ehud Barak, now Israel?s defence minister and then its prime minister, offered the Palestinians a state at Bill Clinton?s fateful summit at Camp David.

This story of Israeli acceptance and Arab rejection is not just a yarn convenient to Israel?s supporters. It is worth remembering that it was not until 1988, a full 40 years after Israel?s birth, that Yasser Arafat?s Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) renounced its goal of liberating the whole of Palestine from the river to the sea. All the same, the truth is much more shaded than the Israeli account allows. There have been missed opportunities, and long periods of rejection, on Israel?s part, too.

Look again at those missed opportunities. At the time of the UN partition resolution, the Jews of Palestine numbered only 600,000 and the Arabs more than twice that number. Most of the Jews were incomers. Although partition might have been the wiser choice for the Palestinians, it did not strike them as remotely fair. In the subsequent war, more than 600,000 of Palestine?s Arabs fled or were put to flight. Afterwards, disinclined either to take them back or return the extra land it had gained in battle, Israel was relieved that the Arab states, traumatised by the rout, made no serious offer of peace. Many of the refugees have been stuck ever since in a sad finger of dunes, the Gaza Strip, pointing at the bright lights of Tel Aviv.


When Israel fell in love

After the ignominious defeat of 1967, the Arab states again rejected the idea of peace with Israel. That was, indeed, a wasted opportunity. But even though the Israel of 1967 discussed how much of the West Bank it was ready to trade for peace, the Likud governments of the late 1970s and 1980s wanted it all. For Israel fell in love with the territories it had occupied.

This was the period of Israeli rejection. Israeli prime ministers such as Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir asserted a God-given right to a ?greater Israel? that included the West Bank and Gaza Strip, in which Israeli governments of all stripes continued to plant (illegal) settlements. In some Israeli minds the Palestinians became a non-people, to be fobbed off with self-government under Israeli or perhaps Jordanian supervision. It took an explosion of Palestinian resistance, in the intifada (uprising) of the late 1980s and the far more lethal one of 2001-03, to convince Israel that this was an illusion.
Corbis Building up the iron wall

What bearing does all this history have on the foul events unfolding right now in Gaza? The point is that there have been precious few moments over the past century during which both sides have embraced the idea of two states at the same time. The most promising moment of all came at the beginning of this decade, with Mr Clinton?s near-miss at Camp David. But now, with the rise of Hamas and the war in Gaza, the brief period of relative hope is in danger of flickering out.

If rejection of the other side?s national claims is one of the things that make this conflict so hard to end, the other is religion. The two are tied together. Hamas is a religious movement, and its formal creed is to reject the possibility of Jewish statehood not only because of Israel?s alleged sins but also because there is no place for a Jewish state in a Muslim land.

In Israel?s early life Zionism was a mainly secular movement and the dominant force on the other side was a secular Arab nationalism. Since 1967, however, religion, nationalism and hunger for Palestinians? land have fused to create a powerful constituency in Israel dedicated to retaining control of the whole of Jerusalem and Judaism?s holy places on the West Bank. Israel?s system of proportional voting has given the settlers and zealots a chokehold over politics. Among Arabs secular nationalism is meanwhile waning in the face of a powerful Islamic revival through the region. And a central dogma of the Islamists is that Israel is an implant that must be violently resisted and eventually destroyed.

One far-seeing Zionist, Vladimir Jabotinsky, predicted in the 1930s not only that the Arabs would oppose the swamping of Palestine with Jewish immigrants but also that ?if we were Arabs, we would not accept it either?. In order to survive, the Jews would have to build an ?iron wall? of military power until the Arabs accepted their state?s permanence. And this came to pass. Only after several costly wars did Egypt and later the PLO conclude that, since Israel could not be vanquished, they had better cut a deal. In Beirut in 2002 all the Arab states followed suit, offering Israel normal relations in return for its withdrawal from all the occupied territories, an opening which Israel was foolish to neglect.

The depressing thing about the rise of Hamas and the decline of the Fatah wing of the PLO is that it reverses this decades-long trend. Hamas?s victory in the Palestinian elections of 2006 had many causes, including a reputation for honesty. Its victory did not prove that Palestinians had been bewitched by Islamist militancy or come to believe again in liberating all of Palestine by force. But if you take seriously what Hamas says in its charter, Hamas itself does believe this. So does Hizbullah, Lebanon?s ?Party of God?; and so does a rising and soon perhaps nuclear-armed Iran. Some analysts take heart from Hamas?s offer of a 30-year truce if Israel returns to its 1967 borders. But it has never offered permanent recognition.

There is worse. On top of the return to rejection and the growing role of religion, a third new obstacle to peace is the apparent crumbling of Jabotinsky?s iron wall.

In Lebanon three years ago, and today in Gaza, Hizbullah and Hamas seem to have invented a new military doctrine. Israel has deterred its enemies mainly by relying on a mighty conventional army to react with much greater force to any provocation. But non-state actors are harder to deter. Hizbullah and Hamas, armed by Iran with some modern weapons, can burrow inside the towns and villages of their own people while lobbing rockets at Israel?s. A state that yearns for a semblance of normality between its wars cannot let such attacks become routine. That is why today, as in the 1950s, Israel responds to pinpricks with punitive raids, each of which had the potential to flare into war. Israel?s operation in Gaza is designed not only to stop Hamas?s rockets but to shore up a doctrine on which Israel thinks its safety must still be based.

At Camp David in 2000 Israel and the Palestinians discovered that even with goodwill it is hard to agree terms. How to share Jerusalem? What to offer the refugees who will never go home? How can Israel trust that the land it vacates is not used, as Gaza has been, as a bridgehead for further struggle? But?and this is the fourth thing that keeps the battle alive?the two sides are seldom left alone to tackle these core issues.

For too long the conflict in Palestine was a hostage to the cold war. America was once neutral: it was Eisenhower who forced Israel out of Gaza (and Britain out of Egypt) after Suez. But America later recruited Israel as an ally, and this suited the Israelis just fine. It gave them the support of a superpower whilst relieving them of a duty to resolve the quarrel with the Palestinians, even though their own long-term well-being must surely depend on solving that conflict.

It may be no coincidence that some of the most promising peacemaking between Israel and the Palestinians took place soon after the cold war ended. But now a new sort of geopolitical confrontation stalks the region, one that sets America against Iran, and the Islamist movements Iran supports against the Arab regimes in America?s camp. With Hamas inside Iran?s tent and Fatah in America?s, the Palestinians are now facing a paralysing schism.

And so to Gaza

Tzipi Livni, Israel?s foreign minister, has been saying all week that, although Israel?s immediate aim is to stop the rocket fire and not to topple Hamas, there can be no peace, and no free Palestine, while Hamas remains in control. She is right that with Hamas in power in Gaza the Islamists can continue to wreck any agreement Israel negotiates with Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority on the West Bank. Mr Abbas, along with Egypt?s President Hosni Mubarak, may quietly relish Hamas being taken down a peg. Egypt is furious at Hamas?s recent refusal to renew talks with Fatah about restoring a Palestinian unity government.

There is a limit, however. Taking Hamas down a peg is one thing. But even in the event of Israel ?winning? in Gaza, a hundred years of war suggest that the Palestinians cannot be silenced by brute force. Hamas will survive, and with it that strain in Arab thinking which says that a Jewish state does not belong in the Middle East. To counter that view, Israel must show not only that it is too strong to be swept away but also that it is willing to give up the land?the West Bank, not just Gaza?where the promised Palestinian state must stand. Unless it starts doing that convincingly, at a minimum by freezing new settlement, it is Palestine?s zealots who will flourish and its peacemakers who will fall back into silence. All of Israel?s friends, including Barack Obama, should be telling it this.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: bdude
Good article. The Economist rarely disappoints.

yea and this was one of their more wordy articles.. they usually avoid so much emotion in the writing
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
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Good article and to the point. Hopefully this current conflict resolves into a more moderate approach to a two state solution that both sides can appreciate. The only part I disagree on is the silencing of Hamas. When you kill enough of the opposition that it does not become profitable to join them, the opposition will crumble, as will happen with Hamas. As well, the idea of freezing settlements is irelvant and is an idiotic point in an otherwise brilliant article. Anyone who has live in Israel or Palestine knows this war was fought over the population of Israles disgust with the rocket attacks, attacks which were based on Hamas ideologies and nothing to do with the West Bank.
 

SamurAchzar

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Feb 15, 2006
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Good article. The problem is that after the bitter experience from the withdrawal from Gaza, I can't see the Israeli public or any of its leaders doing the same in the West Bank. It could have been so much different if not for Hamas' taking over and shooting rockets.

The sad part for the Palestinians is that all the while, Israel is going forward while they are regressing. Israel could go on for years and years like that, but could they?


 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Good article. The problem is that after the bitter experience from the withdrawal from Gaza, I can't see the Israeli public or any of its leaders doing the same in the West Bank. It could have been so much different if not for Hamas' taking over and shooting rockets.

The sad part for the Palestinians is that all the while, Israel is going forward while they are regressing. Israel could go on for years and years like that, but could they?
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Wrong take Sammy, Israel just wants the Palestinians to suffer in silence while they try to convince us all that they stole Palestinian land fair and square. I can fully understand why Palestinians protest, and if you walked an inch in their shoes, you would too.

Right now, only one thing keeps allowing Israel to keep stealing land and that is the USA while we subsidize each and every Israeli to the tune of some $20,000. When that US support is with drawn and some fairness starts to prevail, Israel had better become a realistic peace partner, start sharing, or its years will be extremely numbered.

This Israeli, Palestinian, Arab conflict will simply keep going and going until some fairness is restored. Its the unmistakable lesson of the past 60 years.

One cannot build a viable State of Israel on Nazi like principles and armed might.
 

SamurAchzar

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Feb 15, 2006
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Good article. The problem is that after the bitter experience from the withdrawal from Gaza, I can't see the Israeli public or any of its leaders doing the same in the West Bank. It could have been so much different if not for Hamas' taking over and shooting rockets.

The sad part for the Palestinians is that all the while, Israel is going forward while they are regressing. Israel could go on for years and years like that, but could they?
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Wrong take Sammy, Israel just wants the Palestinians to suffer in silence while they try to convince us all that they stole Palestinian land fair and square. I can fully understand why Palestinians protest, and if you walked an inch in their shoes, you would too.

Right now, only one thing keeps allowing Israel to keep stealing land and that is the USA while we subsidize each and every Israeli to the tune of some $20,000. When that US support is with drawn and some fairness starts to prevail, Israel had better become a realistic peace partner, start sharing, or its years will be extremely numbered.

This Israeli, Palestinian, Arab conflict will simply keep going and going until some fairness is restored. Its the unmistakable lesson of the past 60 years.

One cannot build a viable State of Israel on Nazi like principles and armed might.

Protest - yes, shooting rockets - no. Israel has offered them countless ways to end this conflict, some fairer than others; the felt these offers aren't good enough so they resorted to violence. The problem is their cheerleader crowd, as seen here, that makes them think they are right, while they are just destroying themselves over time.

I think the above reflects more your heart contents as opposed to reality.
I say Israel's position - international opinion included - has improved steadily from '48 to this day.

Why?
Few reasons:

There's the matter of religion: Although PLO were terrorists of the worst kind (like committing the Munich massacre against Israeli olympic sportsmen), you could, by a very large stretch, argue that they are "freedom fighters". They were relatively secular, and didn't wave the flag of Islam up high.
Today, Hamas signifies anything BUT freedom. It's in essence a Taliban like organization, nurtured by the Ayatollahs of Iran. They work towards implementing the Muslim law, the Sharia. That surely can't win them points in the international arena, can it?

The countless atrocities committed on behalf of Islam, helped the cause of Israel. People are now much less tolerant towards Muslims. When the first WMD goes off in some European city (because those are much easier targets than Israel) courtesy of AQ, how do you think the world will react?

Then, the matter of Europe: Due to massive Muslim immigration, more and more parts of Europe are now fighting to maintain their heritage. Europeans feel immensely threatened for their national identity. It reflects well in election results, and their negative sentiments towards their new immigrants will only grow with time. Today, the most commonly given birth name in Britain is Mohammad; how long do you think the British will let this go before feeling like their losing their homeland?

Then, Arab countries: Most of them long ago realized fighting Israel is foolish, and consequently stopped doing so. Israel is no longer threatened by organized military action.

Then, even if the world will somehow turn against it, I can't see Israel really suffering. It is the 4th largest manufacturer of military hardware, so it's not very dependent on foreign hardware. Israel is a technological center second only to the Silicon Valley for some American companies (the Intel Core processor was developed in Haifa, Israel), so in this case, I can't see corporate America turning its on Israel. Also, Israel has considerable nuclear power, and the world doesn't like nuclear rogue states, so I wouldn't count on a diplomatic embargo anyway. Israel doesn't need anything from the US to sustain itself economically (but it does need the option to purchase some military hardware - mostly aircrafts - as do most countries around the globe).

So if I were Israel, I wouldn't be worried even one bit. Just hang tight and let the world deal with the Muslims.
 

Ozoned

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Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: Perknose
But even in the event of Israel ?winning? in Gaza, a hundred years of war suggest that the Palestinians cannot be silenced by brute force. Hamas will survive, and with it that strain in Arab thinking which says that a Jewish state does not belong in the Middle East.

It's to late. These Arabs need to figure out how to win @ war, or move the fvck on.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Perknose
But even in the event of Israel ?winning? in Gaza, a hundred years of war suggest that the Palestinians cannot be silenced by brute force. Hamas will survive, and with it that strain in Arab thinking which says that a Jewish state does not belong in the Middle East.

It's to late. These Arabs need to figure out how to win @ war, or move the fvck on.
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But ah, Ozoned, the Arabs now do know how to win. Stateless terrorists using rockets with longer ranges and carrying payloads of chemical and biological weapons. If Israel retaliates in kind, false flag attacks will rule the day.

Go ahead, tell me to shut the fuck up, I do not like it any better than you do.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Protest - yes, shooting rockets - no.

The rockets came only after decades of protests did nothing to stop Israel's denial of Palestine right to exist.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Israel has offered them countless ways to end this conflict, some fairer than others...

Israel's only offers we that which effectively denied Palestine right to exist as an independent nation.

Granted, these facts have been explained to you before, but you continue to ignore them in as you cheer on the death of Palestine in your own devious ways. Again, you are an extremist, of the same ilk as Hamas.
 

Xellos2099

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Mar 8, 2005
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Didn't Hamas proclaim that Israel need to wipe off the map? For Israel, they are following human instinct, survival instinct.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Didn't Hamas proclaim that Israel need to wipe off the map? For Israel, they are following human instinct, survival instinct.
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I am not sure if Hamas made that statement, but Iran certainly did. And Israeli propagandists have gleefully seized on the Statement without explaining its real meaning.

Because the alternate meaning is that Israel will go back to its original borders that it had between 1948 and up until the 1967 war that greatly expanded the size of Israel.

Meaning those Israeli conquests would be wiped off the map, which is also the position taken by the UN charter, that basically states all land taken by conquest in war is not legitimate. Thus far, Israel has only given back the worthless Sinai desert, continues to occupy the rest, but that occupation is only as legitimate as the USA's occupation of Iraq. And as we saw, the US had to make major concessions just to get a temporary extension of UN permission.

And at some future time, the UN and the rest of the world may say to Israel, out damn spot, and Israel will have no legitimacy at all in retaining any land captured in the 1967 war, which would also mean it would have zero claim to Jerusalem.

As for Hamas, I have heard the claim its leaders demand death to all of Israel including the original 1948 borders, basically the same position Arifat originally took, so we have to wonder how valid those claims are, and if the rest of the world
accepted some "reasonable" peace deal fair to all sides, Hamas would either be forced to modify its position, or Hamas support would vanish.

Basic lesson, don't listen too much to extremist hard liners on either sides, the problem is that we have driven the moderates out of the political discussion.
 

Borealis7

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Oct 19, 2006
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I see. so the palestinians will only follow UN charters and resolutions or any international law they find comfortable?
what about "DONT FIRE ROCKETS AT CIVILIANS EVERY DAY FOR 8 YEARS!"??

international law is of no consequence whatsoever when fighting against terrorist organizations (Hamas is not recignized as a political party and did not sign any "Geneva convention treaty"). Hamas is in no position to demand anything until it recognizes Israel existance and abides by all the agreements signed with israel since the establishment of the PLO.
 

poohbear

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Mar 11, 2003
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Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Perknose
But even in the event of Israel ?winning? in Gaza, a hundred years of war suggest that the Palestinians cannot be silenced by brute force. Hamas will survive, and with it that strain in Arab thinking which says that a Jewish state does not belong in the Middle East.

It's to late. These Arabs need to figure out how to win @ war, or move the fvck on.

israel may have all the watches, but the arabs have all the time. They're a country of 7 million surrounded by 300 million arabs, israel needs a reality check. sure they have the technological advantage, but how long will that last? Peace is in their best interests, appeasing the right wingers in israel that want settlement after settlement is gonna bite em in the as$.

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Didn't Hamas proclaim that Israel need to wipe off the map? For Israel, they are following human instinct, survival instinct.

erm, 900 palestinian dead and 3 israeli civilians is the last i saw the toll, i'd hardly call that "fighting for survival". the myth that "poor little israel" is fighting for survival is obliterated everytime u look at the death tolls of one of their numerous wars. Who's really fighting for survival, the palestinians or the israelis?
 

Borealis7

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Oct 19, 2006
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survival is the wrong word for it. its better described as self defense.
this war is about securing the daily lives of tens of thousands of people living in israel under constant rocket attacks.
and the palestinians also dont fight for survival, as the Hamas militants keep proclaiming they will not stop until they acheive the desctruction of israel.
had they were fighting for survival, they would not smuggle weapons into Gaza from the egyptian border but rather food and medicine.
BTW israel lets supllies through each day for 3 hours, the IDF suspends its attacks and lets cargo trucks into gaza and Hamas uses that ceasefire to continue firing rockets.
i would call that aggression and cinical expliotation of humanitarian efforts, not "survival". they deserve no sympathy from any sane person.
 

Zebo

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Jul 29, 2001
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I'm not sure why this thread isnt concatenated with the Gaza thread but the article is hardly unbiased with statements like: The slaughter this week in Gaza, in which on one day alone some 40 civilians, many children, were killed in a single salvo of Israeli shells..

Intention here is Israel is responsible for "slaughtering" children when in fact both sides are equally culpable. One which cynically uses civilians for protection, the other which cynically excuses those civilians deaths as a necessity to hit militants.

 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
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Originally posted by: Zebo
I'm not sure why this thread isnt concatenated with the Gaza thread but the article is hardly unbiased with statements like: The slaughter this week in Gaza, in which on one day alone some 40 civilians, many children, were killed in a single salvo of Israeli shells..

Intention here is Israel is responsible for "slaughtering" children when in fact both sides are equally culpable. One which cynically uses civilians for protection, the other which cynically excuses those civilians deaths as a necessity to hit militants.

You are a monkey's taint if you think the Economist is biased AGAINST israel.

This is a very even handed article with an functionally brief overview of the history. Of course, you can't go into much detail with the constraints the economist has, unless it does a special report type deal, but the onus is on everybody who really CARES about this conflict to independently research what has transpired since good ole Teddy Herschl.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: poohbear
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Didn't Hamas proclaim that Israel need to wipe off the map? For Israel, they are following human instinct, survival instinct.

erm, 900 palestinian dead and 3 israeli civilians is the last i saw the toll, i'd hardly call that "fighting for survival". the myth that "poor little israel" is fighting for survival is obliterated everytime u look at the death tolls of one of their numerous wars. Who's really fighting for survival, the palestinians or the israelis?

You have a seriously short sighted view of the situation. Israel was formed after approximately 80% of all European jews were systematically eradicated in WWII. Survival is the very heart of the state of Israel, and though you may not wish to view it in such terms, be assured the Israelis do.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: poohbear
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Didn't Hamas proclaim that Israel need to wipe off the map? For Israel, they are following human instinct, survival instinct.

erm, 900 palestinian dead and 3 israeli civilians is the last i saw the toll, i'd hardly call that "fighting for survival". the myth that "poor little israel" is fighting for survival is obliterated everytime u look at the death tolls of one of their numerous wars. Who's really fighting for survival, the palestinians or the israelis?

You have a seriously short sighted view of the situation. Israel was formed after approximately 80% of all European jews were systematically eradicated in WWII. Survival is the very heart of the state of Israel, and though you may not wish to view it in such terms, be assured the Israelis do.
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Jonks, if you think survival entails 7 million jews gleefully thumbing their noses at 300 million Arabs, and most every terrorist on the planet, please have your head examined.

If Israel does not defuse some of the hatreds they are now building to impossibly high levels, terrorist will receive the support and funding to use chemical and biological weapons is my best guess, and its also the estimate of our own NIE.

Its now a very different time than in 1948 when Arabs vowed to push the jews into the sea, Many Arab countries are now willing to accept Israel's right to exist, but not on the current basis of Israeli exploitation of the weak.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: poohbear
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Didn't Hamas proclaim that Israel need to wipe off the map? For Israel, they are following human instinct, survival instinct.

erm, 900 palestinian dead and 3 israeli civilians is the last i saw the toll, i'd hardly call that "fighting for survival". the myth that "poor little israel" is fighting for survival is obliterated everytime u look at the death tolls of one of their numerous wars. Who's really fighting for survival, the palestinians or the israelis?

You have a seriously short sighted view of the situation. Israel was formed after approximately 80% of all European jews were systematically eradicated in WWII. Survival is the very heart of the state of Israel, and though you may not wish to view it in such terms, be assured the Israelis do.
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Jonks, if you think survival entails 7 million jews gleefully thumbing their noses at 300 million Arabs, and most every terrorist on the planet, please have your head examined.

If Israel does not defuse some of the hatreds they are now building to impossibly high levels, terrorist will receive the support and funding to use chemical and biological weapons is my best guess, and its also the estimate of our own NIE.

Its now a very different time than in 1948 when Arabs vowed to push the jews into the sea, Many Arab countries are now willing to accept Israel's right to exist, but not on the current basis of Israeli exploitation of the weak.

You are misreading me or attributing to me things I did not say and do not think. I do not believe widespread bombing with the mounting civilian casualties to be in Israel's best interest. My post above was simply to correct the oft repeated bullshit that Israel's existence is somehow not at stake by citing recent casualty reports. It is perpetually at stake, as you recognize it is surrounded by 300 million hostiles many of whom do challenge its right to exist regardless of how hot or cold their relationship with the palestinians happens to be running any given month.

As to Arab countries willing to accept Israels right to exist, good for them, but they have reached that position not out of some sense of fairness but specifically due to Israel's demonstration through military force for the last 50 years that they will not be pushed into the sea.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: jonks
As to Arab countries willing to accept Israels right to exist, good for them, but they have reached that position not out of some sense of fairness but specifically due to Israel's demonstration through military force for the last 50 years that they will not be pushed into the sea.
Arab countries united are behind Israel's right to exist on the condition that Israel is willing to recognize Palestine's right to exist on what little territory Palestinians still hold rightful claim to under international law. Israel on the other hand has never shown any true interest in ever acknowledging that right, and has contended building settlements all all over Palestinian territory in active denial of Palestine's right to exist.

Granted, or leaders and media never mention any of that, because they are firmly on the "death to Palestine" side. What reason do you have to support their conquest?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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At heart, this is a struggle of two peoples for the same patch of land.

Israel surrendered Gaza, in an attempt for peace. This marks the modern terrorist attacks against Israel as the aggressor. The proper perspective is this question: who is fighting for more land after gaining Gaza, and who is fighting for their lives?

Today Israel fights in Gaza to protect their families from being attacked by it. To defend themselves from an aggressor. If the article is stating that Israel is fighting to claim more land today, then clearly that article is wrong.

America was once neutral: it was Eisenhower who forced Israel out of Gaza (and Britain out of Egypt) after Suez. But America later recruited Israel as an ally, and this suited the Israelis just fine. It gave them the support of a superpower whilst relieving them of a duty to resolve the quarrel with the Palestinians
But even in the event of Israel ?winning? in Gaza, a hundred years of war suggest that the Palestinians cannot be silenced by brute force.

The article?s own statements suggest that we meddle in their affairs and force them to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Then it goes on to suggest that the likes of Hamas cannot be defeated. Well maybe if we didn?t ASSIST Hamas in stopping Israel.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Jaskalas asks, Well maybe if we didn?t ASSIST Hamas in stopping Israel." Leaving extremely vague the word we.

Please Jaskalas, clarify who you are referring to we and explain exactly what the nebulous we is doing to assist Hamas.
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
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Jaskalas - you are completely wrong on a certain point.

Since the peace process began circa 93 or so, israel has always maintained that settlements will be kept regardless of anything. So while they have delayed the peace process often themselves, and often by the palis do it, the fact is Israel has consistently kept building settlements. Only Sharon in his second term did any pullback from the settlements. Because of the israeli right wing, the israeli govt does NOTHING about it. So the Israelis are the ones who have been taking land ILLEGALLY by anybody's standard.