The guy whose CNBC rant help start the Tea Party goes unhinged and gets put in his ..

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
You guys had to extend the loan terms to get there. :awe: Things are good for now I know. One of these days the "cars last longer so we can make longer term loans" story won't fly and the market for auto loans will take a hit. Just not today. So crack the champagne and invest in Ally Wells and Chase while it lasts, who cares! What next 96 month terms? Hilarious.

First, 72mo loans existed before the crisis and they did fine.

Second, cars are older than they have been historically, indicating that they can, indeed, last longer. If you look at the age of the fleet nationwide the average car is older than it has been and has more miles - why? Because they do last longer. Mannheim provides further evidence of this in that even a larger amount of newer vehicles coming off lease and defleeting from rental cars doesn't make that huge of a spike.

I do agree that the sales price is getting a bit ridiculous, however, the consumer has proven that they are more than willing to pay it, especially given PTI and DTI ratios are about flat.

The one area of concern I do have is subprime leasing. GMF recently did a deal with an all-time low WA FICO with a far higher proportion of <700 FICOs when leasing has traditionally been a prime-only product although with some storied credits in it. However, GMF being a captive is pushing things a bit more to drive sales and might be using leasing as an affordability product. Not good.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
Legendkiller is oohhhhh so confident in the car market HMMM :awe:
Luckily subprime loans are a small percentage of the car market. Any crisis caused by a bond bubble will be contained, and I don&#8217;t buy the premise, Maria, that cars depreciate. I also don&#8217;t buy the premise that debt pulls demand from the future. If that were true, living on debt would have severe long term consequences because future demand would shrink as the debt grows. We all know that living on debt has no consequences, so the premise must be false.

I&#8217;m not directing this at anyone in particular. I just need to rant. I read so much stupid crap written by Austrian &#8220;economists&#8221; and Ron Paul supporters. This seems like a good thread to vent my frustrations.

GM's loan books
FT said:
Almost 76 percent of GM's consumer loan portfolio at the end of June, up from 65 percent at the end of 2011, consisted of borrowers who are more likely than not to go seriously delinquent.
This is fantastic news. Without the Bernanke put, now the Yellen put, that number would be much lower. If we imposed tighter lending standards like those silly democrats talk about (but never do), GM would only be allowed to lend money to people who are capable of paying it back. Bill Clinton and George Bush were right &#8211; less regulation is better. We need to unshackle GM so they can make bad loans and thereby increase aggregate demand for cars. Anyone looking at the US economy would conclude the real problem is not enough cars. Americans would be much more productive if they simply owned more cars. Even that doesn&#8217;t matter since modern economies don&#8217;t rely on production.

Supply side economics was debunked decades ago. Prosperity comes from demand; not supply. No sane person would say they are doing well simply because they have nice things and they can sell their surplus things to other people. True prosperity comes from wanting nice things that other people produce. This is why it&#8217;s important to fund aggregate demand through credit bubbles rather than funding demand through production; living on credit cards is more sustainable than getting a job. The added benefit of credit bubbles is that they allocate capital away from productive uses and into nonproductive uses. Back in 2005, every woman with nice legs was a realtor, and that&#8217;s why the economy was doing great. The federal reserve&#8217;s credit bubble had successfully diverted capital away from things like engineering and into things like building condos that nobody lives in.

Our economy would have contracted much sooner if we had too many people on the supply side, doing silly things like trying to design a more efficient car. Increasing efficiency is bad for the economy because it leads to deflation. Back in 1960, engineering was ridiculously expensive because people had to draw the plans with a pencil and paper. Sharing the plans with another office meant getting in a car and driving to the other office. All of this made engineering expensive, and that&#8217;s why the economy was doing great. Now we&#8217;re in the age of computers and it&#8217;s a complete disaster. The entire Taj Mahal can be drawn by 1 person using 1 computer, and it can be shared with multiple offices just by sending an email. This drives the cost of engineering through the floor. This is called deflation, and it&#8217;s very bad because the lower prices lower aggregate demand. Ask any real economist who understands Keynesian economics, such as Paul Krugman, and they&#8217;ll tell you that higher prices lead to higher demand. This is why cell phones were more popular in the 1980s than they are today. When that movie Wall Street came out, a phone like Gordon&#8217;s would easily cost more than $1000, and the air time was just as expensive. Today, they give away phones in cereal boxes. The price is so incredibly low that demand no longer exists. I don&#8217;t know a single person who owns a cell phone. Deflation has destroyed the cell phone industry. Thank god people like Bernanke are working overtime to prevent that from happening to houses. If housing ever became cheap, we would all be homeless. Nobody would want a house.

/end rant

Not only is the economy doing great right now, but people are thrilled to put high risk loans in their retirement funds. Sure, one could argue that luring the pension funds of old people into a building then welding the doors shut and setting the building on fire is cruel, but as the old saying goes, old people are not people.
Securization of worthless auto loans.
Bloomberg said:
The percentage of loans packaged into securities that are more than 30 days late rose 1.43 percentage points to 7.59 percent in the 12 months ended September 30 (2013), according to Standard & Poor&#8217;s. That&#8217;s the highest in at least three years, the data released last week by the New York-based ratings company show.

That sounds like a pretty awesome deal. I lend out a bunch of money at maybe 5% interest, and only 7.6% of the loans go into default. The idiot Austrians have been wrong about junk bonds being dangerous for the past 5 years. They&#8217;ll never admit they were wrong about this even though it&#8217;s clear as day that junk bonds are a safe investment as long as the credit supply grows exponentially and new loans are taken out to pay the interest on the old loans.

You&#8217;re welcome, America

bernanke-smile.jpg




Thumbs up to GM for thinking of this scam. It's elegance comes from its simplicity.
1) Issue loans to drug addicts so they can buy your product.
2) Package up the worthless bonds and sell them to old people.
3) Go to step 1.
 
Last edited:

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
The fact that he was down to be wrong isn't all that shocking. It had been predicted by educated people since he spoke those words, it's just taken time for reality to bear out the evidence.

There never was an actual economic theory that predicted this. It was always based on paranoia, fatalism and conspiracy. OV proves this right here. No data. No logical framework. No working models. Just raw emotionalism.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
The fact that he was down to be wrong isn't all that shocking. It had been predicted by educated people since he spoke those words, it's just taken time for reality to bear out the evidence.

There never was an actual economic theory that predicted this. It was always based on paranoia, fatalism and conspiracy. OV proves this right here. No data. No logical framework. No working models. Just raw emotionalism.

Noooooooo I don't agree with the teaparty types. They're village idiots of sorts. I'm a big fan of history though. Look up times when wealth inequality was this high :awe:.
 
Last edited:

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Luckily subprime loans are a small percentage of the car market. Any crisis caused by a bond bubble will be contained, and I don&#8217;t buy the premise, Maria, that cars depreciate. I also don&#8217;t buy the premise that debt pulls demand from the future. If that were true, living on debt would have severe long term consequences because future demand would shrink as the debt grows. We all know that living on debt has no consequences, so the premise must be false.

I&#8217;m not directing this at anyone in particular. I just need to rant. I read so much stupid crap written by Austrian &#8220;economists&#8221; and Ron Paul supporters. This seems like a good thread to vent my frustrations.

GM's loan books

This is fantastic news. Without the Bernanke put, now the Yellen put, that number would be much lower. If we imposed tighter lending standards like those silly democrats talk about (but never do), GM would only be allowed to lend money to people who are capable of paying it back. Bill Clinton and George Bush were right &#8211; less regulation is better. We need to unshackle GM so they can make bad loans and thereby increase aggregate demand for cars. Anyone looking at the US economy would conclude the real problem is not enough cars. Americans would be much more productive if they simply owned more cars. Even that doesn&#8217;t matter since modern economies don&#8217;t rely on production.

Supply side economics was debunked decades ago. Prosperity comes from demand; not supply. No sane person would say they are doing well simply because they have nice things and they can sell their surplus things to other people. True prosperity comes from wanting nice things that other people produce. This is why it&#8217;s important to fund aggregate demand through credit bubbles rather than funding demand through production; living on credit cards is more sustainable than getting a job. The added benefit of credit bubbles is that they allocate capital away from productive uses and into nonproductive uses. Back in 2005, every woman with nice legs was a realtor, and that&#8217;s why the economy was doing great. The federal reserve&#8217;s credit bubble had successfully diverted capital away from things like engineering and into things like building condos that nobody lives in.

Our economy would have contracted much sooner if we had too many people on the supply side, doing silly things like trying to design a more efficient car. Increasing efficiency is bad for the economy because it leads to deflation. Back in 1960, engineering was ridiculously expensive because people had to draw the plans with a pencil and paper. Sharing the plans with another office meant getting in a car and driving to the other office. All of this made engineering expensive, and that&#8217;s why the economy was doing great. Now we&#8217;re in the age of computers and it&#8217;s a complete disaster. The entire Taj Mahal can be drawn by 1 person using 1 computer, and it can be shared with multiple offices just by sending an email. This drives the cost of engineering through the floor. This is called deflation, and it&#8217;s very bad because the lower prices lower aggregate demand. Ask any real economist who understands Keynesian economics, such as Paul Krugman, and they&#8217;ll tell you that higher prices lead to higher demand. This is why cell phones were more popular in the 1980s than they are today. When that movie Wall Street came out, a phone like Gordon&#8217;s would easily cost more than $1000, and the air time was just as expensive. Today, they give away phones in cereal boxes. The price is so incredibly low that demand no longer exists. I don&#8217;t know a single person who owns a cell phone. Deflation has destroyed the cell phone industry. Thank god people like Bernanke are working overtime to prevent that from happening to houses. If housing ever became cheap, we would all be homeless. Nobody would want a house.

/end rant

Not only is the economy doing great right now, but people are thrilled to put high risk loans in their retirement funds. Sure, one could argue that luring the pension funds of old people into a building then welding the doors shut and setting the building on fire is cruel, but as the old saying goes, old people are not people.
Securization of worthless auto loans.


That sounds like a pretty awesome deal. I lend out a bunch of money at maybe 5% interest, and only 7.6% of the loans go into default. The idiot Austrians have been wrong about junk bonds being dangerous for the past 5 years. They&#8217;ll never admit they were wrong about this even though it&#8217;s clear as day that junk bonds are a safe investment as long as the credit supply grows exponentially and new loans are taken out to pay the interest on the old loans.

You&#8217;re welcome, America

bernanke-smile.jpg




Thumbs up to GM for thinking of this scam. It's elegance comes from its simplicity.
1) Issue loans to drug addicts so they can buy your product.
2) Package up the worthless bonds and sell them to old people.
3) Go to step 1.


What was the static pool default rate of Americredit subprime auto loans through the crisis?

What is the WA FICO of Americredit pools pre/post crisis? What about WA coupon?

All of this information is publicly available.

What is the WA coupon of GMF's current securitization pools? A lot more than 5%.

Do some research before you believe the screed.

Why do you think the bonds are "worthless"? What could possibly lead you to that opinion? Ohh wait, you don't have any info that could lead you that way, just moronic "the sky is falling" bullshit spewed by lackwits.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Meh I only care about the effects of loans.

The rate of lending falls, defaults skyrocket.

The rate of lending increases, inflation.

The interest rate falls, lower monthly payments, higher principles.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,581
15,795
136
Personally I liked how he simply ignored everything, yelled and walked off camera frequently. I also love how he said something about its good I mentioned these things otherwise they would have happened or something similar it was difficult to follow his madness.