The Greenpeace Myth Debunked by the Founder Himself!!!

FrontlineWarrior

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2000
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This was published today in the LA Times by Patrick Moore, the co-founder of Greenpeace.

Greens Don't See Forest for the Trees


By PATRICK MOORE, Patrick Moore, a co-founder of Greenpeace, is president of Greenspirit, an environmental consultant to government and industry.

It has become a principle of the environmental movement to insist that wood and paper products be certified as originating from sustained, managed forests. Movement members even created their own organization, the Forest Stewardship Council, to make the rules and hand out the certificates.

Lord help those who don't fall in line, as big-box retailers and builders discovered when Greenpeace and the Rainforest Action Network became their judge and jury--hanging corporate reputations from the rafters with the TV cameras rolling.

Many corporations felt compelled to accept restrictive buying policies for wood and paper products to demonstrate loyalty to the cause. This appears politically correct on the surface. Yet, as with so many environmental issues, it's not that simple, and the result may damage the environment rather than improve it. The environmental movement's campaign to force industry into accepting it as the only judge of sustainable forestry is pushing consumers away from renewable forest products and toward nonrenewable, energy-intensive materials such as steel, concrete and plastic.

Anti-forestry groups such as the Sierra Club and Greenpeace make endless and unreasonable demands restricting forestry practices. This is mainly why the Forest Stewardship Council has certified less than 2% of the wood and paper produced in North America.

Meanwhile, the same environmental groups won't acknowledge that some regions--such as California--already comply with government regulations that meet or exceed guidelines imposed by the Forest Stewardship Council.

Wood is the most renewable and sustainable of the major building materials. On all measures comparing the environmental effects of common building materials, wood has the least impact on total energy use, greenhouse gases, air and water pollution and solid waste.

So why isn't the environmental movement demanding that the steel and concrete industries submit to an audit for "sustainability"? Where's the green steel, concrete and plastic? These materials are nonrenewable, require vast amounts of energy to manufacture and recycle and are contributors to greenhouse gas emissions.

Why shouldn't steel and concrete manufacturers be required to reduce energy consumption and greenhouse gas emissions or face boycotts, demonstrations and restrictions? Why does the environmental movement stand silent in the face of promotional campaigns by steel and concrete interests that leverage mythical environmental claims against wood for their own commercial benefit?

Because emotive images of forests sell memberships.

The environmental movement has unfortunately led the public into believing that when people use wood, they cause the loss of forests. This widespread guilt is misplaced. North America's forests are not disappearing. In fact, there is about the same amount of forest cover today as there was 100 years ago, even though we consume more wood per capita than any other region in the world. Isn't this proof positive that forests are renewable and sustainable?

When we buy wood, we are sending a signal to plant more trees to satisfy demand. If there were no demand for wood, landowners would clear away the forest and grow something else instead.

We have powerful tools at our disposal to reduce carbon dioxide emissions and the threat of climate change. Grow more trees, and then use more wood as a substitute for materials like steel and concrete that are responsible for excessive emissions in the first place.

If the environmental movement would recognize this one fact, it would turn its anti-forestry policy on its head and redirect membership dollars to where they are most needed--promoting sound environmental choices.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-000021792mar26.story
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
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Further evidence that the enviro-waco's are a bunch of grifters and fraud gammers operating under the guise of environmentals.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
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<< Further evidence that the enviro-waco's are a bunch of grifters and fraud gammers operating under the guise of environmentals. >>



Agreed!

However, it's still a good idea to keep in mind that our environment is a fragile place, and that we should do what we can to maintain it. This is not to say that we should give up our lifestyle in pursuit of environazi-pseudoscience, however.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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<< The environmental movement has unfortunately led the public into believing that when people use wood, they cause the loss of forests. This widespread guilt is misplaced. North America's forests are not disappearing. In fact, there is about the same amount of forest cover today as there was 100 years ago, even though we consume more wood per capita than any other region in the world. Isn't this proof positive that forests are renewable and sustainable? >>



What about 200 years ago? :Q

Please. When we go into a forest that has never seen man- besides maybe native americans, who respected the land.. anyway.. my point is.. we kill it. After we tromp around with our trucks and machines, tear everything up, and cut all of the trees down.. do you think it's alive? How many species of microorganisms, invertabrates and insects alone are disrupted because of our actions? Not to mention species in the plant kingdom. That's the real issue. Yeah, we "replant". Have you ever seen a "replanted" "forest"? Give me a break. All the trees are long and spindly, and all of the lower branches are dead and diseased. You can't plant a forest in rows.

If they want to take big expanses of land and grow renewable trees, fine. Just quit cutting down what we have left of the old forests!

It just occoured to me that many of you may not really know what a clear cut looks like. Perhaps you even rarely see logging trucks.

You've probably never seen a stump that could sleep 4 comfortably. You've never seen a living 1000+ year old tree. You've never seen a forest the way it should be. A real forest.

Bah. That's why you can say you don't care. :frown:
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
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<You've probably never seen a stump that could sleep 4 comfortably. You've never seen a living 1000+ year old tree. You've never seen a forest the way it should be. A real forest.>




Neither have the pack of grifter lawyers that run the sierra club, from their redwood hot tubs in california.

 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
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Our water is screwed up with enviro-approved MTBE ie.product's of combustion.
 

Texmaster

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
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<< Our water is screwed up with enviro-approved MTBE ie.product's of combustion. >>



The Corn based Fuel? I Completely agree. I covered that story for a television station in college. That stuff if extremely dangerous
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
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<< Please. When we go into a forest that has never seen man- besides maybe native americans, who respected the land >>


Perhaps you might want to research this little bit of folklore before stating it as fact. Indians had no more or less respect for the land and the environment than any other humans.
 

MacBaine

Banned
Aug 23, 2001
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<< Indians had no more or less respect for the land and the environment than any other humans. >>



??????????????????? Maybe you wanna clue us in on that one, partner....
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
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The real gist of the story is that he's not trashing the forest protections as much as he is saying the priorities are out of skew. This is the meat:

Why shouldn't steel and concrete manufacturers be required to reduce energy consumption and greenhouse gas emissions or face boycotts, demonstrations and restrictions? Why does the environmental movement stand silent in the face of promotional campaigns by steel and concrete interests that leverage mythical environmental claims against wood for their own commercial benefit?


But even tho he's a consultant to the current administration, don't expect Bush to give a crap about this.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
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<<

<< I hate Greenpeace. Always have, always will. >>



really! why is that?
>>



They are sticking their noses to things that do not concern them. They insist doing things their way, even when alternative ways are available that are just as good. If someone refuses to lick their boots, they threaten with boycotts etc. etc.
 

eakers

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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<< They are sticking their noses to things that do not concern them >>


im sorry but our environment should be a concern to us all. its a matter of continuation of our species vs. a slow and painful extinction.

*kat. <-- confused by your statement.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
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They are sticking their noses to things that do not concern them. They insist doing things their way, even when alternative ways are available that are just as good. If someone refuses to lick their boots, they threaten with boycotts etc. etc.

Lets leave republicans out of this. ;)
 

eakers

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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<< Kat, I agree totally,if that makes me a tree hugging liberal so be it :) >>


i prefer the term "bleeding heart liberal" thankyouverymuch.

*kat. <-- :D
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
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<< Indians had no more or less respect for the land and the environment than any other humans. >>



??????????????????? Maybe you wanna clue us in on that one, partner....


It seems to me that there are many people (like myself) who can assume a tone of superior knowledge and insight about some problem, social movement, cultureal trend, sociological phenomenon, human innateness or the world in general. That attitude and approach rarely proves to be helpful.

Are North American forests the same as they were 100 years ago? Suppose that is so, now consider rainforests and the rest of the world. The earth is much larger than north america and much much more complex in its dynamics.

Are the natives noble and somehow taking care of the "earth mother" better than people now? Well no, they destroyed, they burned, they overhunted. Why look at the comparison between !Kung bushmen or the Alawa (both natives) and the Algonquin tribes in the New York area or even the Maya as an example of a socially advanced civilization. Both are natives. The difference in subsistence strategy just meant that the !Kung are able to preserve an egalitarian society by sharing food and the "civilized" people lock food up and make economies and classes, divisions, separation of labor, etc. The difference in the latter case also is that a controlled food intake will result in unchecked population growth. The resulting chaos and stress will cause as much damage to natural resources due to unsustained utilization and renewal. Huge stress must be gradual in nature, else it cannot cope and will overreact in some way (what's with the whole black water thing in Florida, anyway? Things like that...).

So no, natives do not have more respect for the land, de facto. They may be better situated to not overutilize the natural resources and enable continuity across generations or have a religion that emphasizes a conenction but that does not mean they are somehow "noble savages" and they are "close to nature".

As for this whole bit.. Well of course planned resource use and sustainability works. We can use whatever we want, it's not a matter of always recycling and being environmental wackos. It's just that so many do not take care of the land and the environment that some people have to go to the extreme. The real picture is that things are sustainable as they are BUT things must be under control in terms of population size or there will be uncontrolled growth. When I farmed with my family, we used to leave plots of land untouched and would plant clover or other grasses to let the land rest. Sometimes, the land wants to rest much longer than people are willing to let it. Have you ever woken up somebody before their time? They can get pretty grumpy...

Let's not dismiss the environmentalists just yet, there may be a good message behind all of the nonsense. :D

Cheers ! :)
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
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<< ??????????????????? Maybe you wanna clue us in on that one, partner.... >>


Examples: Slash and burn agriculture. They cleared land by slash and burn techniques, deadening trees by chopping away the bark, then setting the area on fire. These fires doubtless burned large acreages of forest since the Indians had no way (or desire) to extinguish them once their original purpose was served. In these clearings, the Indians planted their crops of corn, squash, and gourds. When fields lost their natural fertility, the Indians simply abandoned them and applied the slash and burn process to another area.

Low population density coupled with a very large and fertile continent mitigated the overall effects of this. All I am pointing out is that the rose colored romantic view of the Noble Indian living as one with the land and nature are just that. They, like all of us, were human beings and subject to all the good and bad that the rest of us are including modifying their environment for their own purposes, warring with one another, claiming territorial boundries, over hunting areas etc.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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<<

<< They are sticking their noses to things that do not concern them >>


im sorry but our environment should be a concern to us all. its a matter of continuation of our species vs. a slow and painful extinction.

*kat. <-- confused by your statement.
>>



I was going to add some stuff to my post, but the forums were acting up.

Here's an example of Greenpeaces meddling. Few years ago they demanded that the finnish forestry-industry adopts one certain certification to be used regarding forests and forestry-products. The industry didn't accept it and they pointed out that Finland already has the most extensive forest preserves and that the industry in Finland already had a similar certification in place. But that was unacceptable to Greenpeace, and they proceeded to organize boycotts and they stopped cargo-ships carrying paper for export from loading/unloading their cargo. They also tied themselves to the forestry-equipment when they tried to prevent the forest from being cut down.

All that, regardless of the fact that:

1. Finlands forestry-conservation scheme is the most extensive one in Europe
2. About 80% of Finland is covered with forests
3. Industry already had strict requirements they had to meet (the certification already being used here)

Now, they are planning to boycott finnish products because we are planning to build new nuclear-reactor. Of course they don't boycott France, where most of electricity is generated by nuclear-power.

And I have first-hand experience regarding environmental extremists. My friends family owned a forest (many do in Finland) it was old forest and there were too many trees there. Because there were too many trees there, it caused the forest to die slowly. The solution was to cut some of the trees so remaining trees could prosper. Local environmentalists heard of their plan and protested. In the end, they were denied the right to cut those trees, and the forest basically died.

EDIT: And, FWIW, I support attempts to protect our environment. I just don't like the scare-tactics and bullying done by Greenpeace.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
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I know this thread is old, but I've been gone and I'm going to respond anyway.




<< And I have first-hand experience regarding environmental extremists. My friends family owned a forest (many do in Finland) it was old forest and there were too many trees there. Because there were too many trees there, it caused the forest to die slowly. The solution was to cut some of the trees so remaining trees could prosper. Local environmentalists heard of their plan and protested. In the end, they were denied the right to cut those trees, and the forest basically died. >>



Uhh.. Okay. Too many trees in the forest.. Yeah.. Right.

I realize what you're trying to say.. but it doesen't make any sense. So.. how do the forests "survive", without us humans to cut the trees down when theres "too many"? Give me a break.

As for the Native American thing.. It's all in the mindset. Of course they're humans, and had to clear the land and do all that. The difference is that they did it with respect. They realized that they needed the land to survive. They didn't cut all the trees down and then go.. Whoops, now what do we do?

We don't pay attention to things until it's too late. We don't care until the issue is so pressing, that we have to do something about it. That's not the right way to go about it.