The great jobs debate: Ideas for how to put the unemployed back to work

[Munky]

The people running around this country with a middle class victim complex need to get a fucking clue.

Free choice is a bitch, if the "middle class" elected to sign loan papers and turn their houses into a credit card there is nobody to blame but the middle class. All of the cash floating around made people and businesses lazy, now that the music has stopped and there aren't enough chairs who's really to blame? What's happening in DC is a reflection on a problem with the culture and the country at large.

We've been living in an age of false prosperity for the past 10 years, chasing bubble after bubble in pursuit of funny money from inflated tech stocks and real-estate idiocy backed up by a government bail-out that rewards failure and poor decision making. The products and services bought and sold with the fake money were created in response to demand from the public including the demand for cheaper goods made in China.

As much as people gnash and complain about the current state of things we have nobody to blame but ourselves... not dirty politicians (who we elect) or "banksters" who fed our demand for big houses full of shit we don't need. Real consequences (bankrupcy, homelessness, etc..) for people who made dumb ass decisions, individuals/families/corporations/banks, etc... would encourage smart behavior. Continuing the cycle of bailouts that reward failure and and witch hunts for people who fed into the madness is simply a chicken shit way to avoid taking responsibility. We have, as a country, gotten ourselves here and until we collectively take responsibility and begin behaving like self-sufficent adults that hold one another accountable for our actions we don't deserve prosperity.

Spot on. The problem now is that hardly any politician will make the unpopular choice to address the root causes of our crisis and accept the pain it will bring, instead preferring to kick the can down the road, spend and pretend.

 

[Infohawk]

We need to impose tariffs on countries with substandard environmental and labor laws. Otherwise, there really isn't any need for much of the US working class and middle class. Rich Americans can get the vast majority of goods and services from India and China.

Decouple benefits from hiring. If someone wants to hire someone, they shouldn't have to think about buying health care or other perks. They should only have to worry about salary. If we want everyone to have health care, do it through the government or with subsidies for the poor to buy their own coverage.

But beyond that, it seems like we may be at or close to the point where many people aren't needed in the workforce. The 2000s showed that there is only so much need for real estate agents and the like. We only need so many engineers, doctors, lawyers. What are we going to do with the people who only have manual skills?

 

[Doppel]

Megan McArdle: Create a Special Job Credit for the Long-Term Unemployed

How to get employers to hire people who have already been out of work for too long? Traditional government solutions like job training have an absolutely dismal record. The only government solution to long-term unemployment we've ever found was to have World War II, and for various reasons, we're probably not going to reauthorize that particular program.

One suggestion is to give them direct incentives to choose the long-term unemployed over those who are already in work, or out of work for only a short time. How? We could exempt new hires from both the employee and the employer sides of the payroll tax, one month for every month that they were unemployed.

The result is a direct wage subsidy of more than 10%. But it is a time-limited subsidy, and one carefully targeted to those who need it the most. By the time the tax relief expires, these workers will have been reintegrated into the labor force. This will cost the government something of course--but not nearly as much as supporting them on welfare, disability, or early retirement--or the prison system.

On the face a great idea, in actuality a bad one. It does not create jobs. The problem with this economy is not that the unemployed are not getting hired; the idea this person puts through will bias toward hiring somebody unemployed for a particular position (as opposed to pulling away an already-employed from their position--a position which is theoretically now open to others). The problem is that companies do not want as many people as are now available for work.

We all must realize that at some point--I'm not saying it's now, but it's at some point--the the low-quality employee; the barely motivated with or without a high school degree, simply has nothing to offer an employer. We are in an economy that outsources much of its labor to third world nations and outsources much of it to machines locally. These people will be increasingly squeezed out because they simply aren't worth anything to the economy as employees earning a wage. Surely an increased safety net, and we see ours increase decade after decade, encourages this "worthless employee" situation.

If you want to extend my logic further imagine we had an unlimited supply of dogs. What use are they? Smart, well trained dogs are good in a few positions, as guide dogs or drug sniffers but they cannot operate machinery or computers. We just don't need many of them. A person, even one of average intelligence, at some point becomes more expensive than a machine that can do his job for cheaper and do it better. He'll always be worth something but if he can scrounge out a basic existence with AC and TV and not starve to death his demanded salary is more than you care to pay him, and so he stays out of work.

 

[werepossum]

The people running around this country with a middle class victim complex need to get a fucking clue.

Free choice is a bitch, if the "middle class" elected to sign loan papers and turn their houses into a credit card there is nobody to blame but the middle class. All of the cash floating around made people and businesses lazy, now that the music has stopped and there aren't enough chairs who's really to blame? What's happening in DC is a reflection on a problem with the culture and the country at large.

We've been living in an age of false prosperity for the past 10 years, chasing bubble after bubble in pursuit of funny money from inflated tech stocks and real-estate idiocy backed up by a government bail-out that rewards failure and poor decision making. The products and services bought and sold with the fake money were created in response to demand from the public including the demand for cheaper goods made in China.

As much as people gnash and complain about the current state of things we have nobody to blame but ourselves... not dirty politicians (who we elect) or "banksters" who fed our demand for big houses full of shit we don't need. Real consequences (bankrupcy, homelessness, etc..) for people who made dumb ass decisions, individuals/families/corporations/banks, etc... would encourage smart behavior. Continuing the cycle of bailouts that reward failure and and witch hunts for people who fed into the madness is simply a chicken shit way to avoid taking responsibility. We have, as a country, gotten ourselves here and until we collectively take responsibility and begin behaving like self-sufficent adults that hold one another accountable for our actions we don't deserve prosperity.

Harsh, but spot on. Far too much of our government is now rewarding failure and punishing success. Buy a house you can afford and actually pay it off? Great, you can help pay for your neighbor's McMansion that he couldn't afford, bought with a 110% loan, and refinanced out any equity he did manage to acquire! Dave Ramsey calls it spending money you don't have to buy things you don't need to impress people you don't like.

We need real accountability. Anything that is too large to be allowed to fail should immediately be broken into smaller parts that AREN'T too large to fail. Any bailout needs to be done through bankruptcy court and aimed only at preventing failure; I can maybe accept too large to be allowed to fail, but never too large to not make its bonuses.

Until we as a nation are willing to spend more of our money to buy American, until we are prepared to elect politicians who don't promise to take money from others and give it to us, until we get over our collective sense of entitlement, we are going to continue our decline.

 

[Engineer]

What do you mean by cash hoarding?

Corporations are holding all time high levels of cash and not spending it (on new hiring, products, upgrades, anything). Over two trillion dollars. Apple just released that they have accumulated an additional ten billion in cash over the last quarter alone.

 

[Infohawk]

He'll always be worth something but if he can scrounge out a basic existence with AC and TV and not starve to death his demanded salary is more than you care to pay him, and so he stays out of work.

Except this isn't limited to your highschool diploma stereotype. Eventually, pretty much everyone will be economically useless. Why do you need a spoiled highly-paid US engineeer when an Indian or Chinese one is just as good? The only safe Americans are the ones with tons of capital. (And good luck to them when dealing with 3rd world countries where property rights are only a couple decades old.)

Eventually, the entire world is going to have to accept that a huge part of the world population has no economic use whatsoever and if anything is a drain of resources for those with power. I'm not sure what the exact solution is but I don't think it involves looking at people with high school diplomas as worthless animals and I'm more interested in putting the American high school diploma guy to work than I am at putting some father of six to work in India.

 

[Modelworks]

The way to create jobs is to let people do without. The only time people are willing to change is when they have to. As long as people look for someone else to solve their employment problems it will continue. If the jobs are not where you are, go where they are. If the field you work in isn't hiring, then change to one that is. There is work out there, it is just work they don't like. All that is required to live hasn't changed in 1000 years, it is all the extra stuff people have brainwashed themselves into thinking they need that is the problem. You only need food, shelter, clothing , everything else is extra. Americans are spoiled. They want large houses, multiple cars, paid vacations , and if anyone takes any of that away they think they are hurting when the majority have no idea what poor is. It makes me sick to see people complaining about work on tv when they are wearing brand name clothing, living in a nice house, and driving a new car and complaining they don't know how they will make it if the government doesn't do something. Simple, get rid of the car, house and move to where you can work. I know people will say, 'but it isn't that easy', yes it is that easy and that simple, the things people complain about losing are not necessities, they are wants. Sell the belongings, stay in a motel or rent a room and work somewhere till you can get back on your feet. People did it this way all throughout history.

If you are waiting for the government to make jobs you are crazy, do you really think that a politician when he sits down to dinner tonight cares if you have money to feed yourself ?

 

[Doppel]

Except this isn't limited to your highschool diploma stereotype. Eventually, pretty much everyone will be economically useless. Why do you need a spoiled highly-paid US engineeer when an Indian or Chinese one is just as good?

Down the line this is possible, i guess stay ahead of the curve as logn as you can :'(

I only think they are analogous to animals as far as their economic use. Surely I'm not the first to check out at an automated teller at Walmart and wonder wth is going through the mind of the human on the cashier next to me. I wonder if they realize they are just a few more software releases from irrelevance.

 

[Infohawk]

Down the line this is possible, i guess stay ahead of the curve as logn as you can :'(

Or we can start thinking of mutually acceptable ways to deal with this radical change in civilization. It makes more sense to me than everyone trying to win a last-man-standing rat-race. The real issue is population control.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's Government, Insurance, and Lawyers that are the problem.

They are all in this little game, you tax me, I require you, to keep me safe.

For America to regain it's place at the top of the world, Government, Insurance and Lawyers must be reduced. In their place, jobs, investments, risks, gains, and for sure losses. It's the natural order of things.

As SOON as Government, Insurance, and Lawyers are involved, there is no chance for the ordinary man.

Our recourses are simple.

Limit Government.
Limit Lawyers.
Limit Insurance.

Limit the Non-Producers, The Government Elite.

-John

 

[JSt0rm]

look at all you fucks yapping over your work day. Maybe you should all be replaced.

 

[ultimatebob]

Someone needs to pick a fight with a major superpower and start World War III. Big wars are always good for unemployment.

China vs Russia would be nice... We could sell arms to both sides!

 

[Zorkorist]

We should have Pol Pot declare Communism.

Everyone to the Country-side, and plant rice. Now!

-John

 

[ultimatebob]

Maybe we should put everyone to work building a new highspeed railroad between Boston and Washington DC. You want your unemployment extended past a year? Come on over to Connecticut and help us lay some track, bitches! No more free government handouts for you!

 

[Zorkorist]

I guess a high-speed railroad between Boston and Washington, D.C., would be economically suicidal?

Free Labor, or Forced Labor would help?

Yeah! Let's do that!

-John

 

[ultimatebob]

I guess a high-speed railroad between Boston and Washington, D.C., would be economically suicidal?

Free Labor, or Forced Labor would help?

Yeah! Let's do that!

-John

The Boston to DC metro corridor is one of the few places in the US that could use the extra passenger rail capacity.

Although, I'm sure that a high speed rail line between San Francisco, LA, and Las Vegas would be popular for tourism as well.

Oh, and it's not free labor... It's a job! Don't like it? Find another one... but don't expect more unemployment extensions past a year.

 

[Zorkorist]

So, present your argument, get backers, hire people, and do it.

It's not Government's job to build an economy.

It's Government that is probably hindering people like yourself, that see an opportunity.

"You can't just build high-speed rail in places that need it, you must build high-speed rail in other places too."

So sayeth the Government, so sayeth the Flock.

-John

 

[ultimatebob]

So, present your argument, get backers, hire people, and do it.

It's not Government's job to build an economy.

It's Government that is probably hindering people like yourself, that see an opportunity.

-John

Hey... I don't remember the interstate system or Hoover Dam being funded with private dollars. Some projects are just too big and too risky for private investment to complete it.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Corporations are holding all time high levels of cash and not spending it (on new hiring, products, upgrades, anything). Over two trillion dollars. Apple just released that they have accumulated an additional ten billion in cash over the last quarter alone.

So the fix to this is to steal it from them.

/sarcasm

Hey... I don't remember the interstate system or Hoover Dam being funded with private dollars. Some projects are just too big and too risky for private investment to complete it.

This may be true, but it isn't the rule. It is the exception.

 

[Zorkorist]

Hey... I don't remember the interstate system or Hoover Dam being funded with private dollars. Some projects are just too big and too risky for private investment to complete it.

Due to Government, Insurance, and Lawyers, almost any project today is "too big for an individual."

And that is a HUGE shame.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

You want to have Chickens in your back yard. Illegal.

You want to grow a garden in your front yard. Illegal.

You want to renovate your home. Illegal.

You want to drive a car without a seatbelt. Illegal.

You want to...

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Never mind trying to build a high-speed railway. :O

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

You want to build a Nuclear Power Plant? Sorry. Illegal.

-John

 

[Brigandier]

Never mind trying to build a high-speed railway. :O

-John

What year was it when railroads gave up?

I'd really like to know.

A 100 MPH+ train should be easy, and economically feasible, if they don't exist in America, why is it?

I guess our highway speed trains are good enough...

 

[Zorkorist]

Last I heard, Railways were extremely profitable (except for Amtrak.)

It's just impossible to build anything new today, due to Government, Lawyers, and Insurance Companies.

While they would probably like to build high-speed lines, it is impossible in today's world of Government, Lawyers, and Insurance Companies.

-John