The Great Flood and Noah's Ark

[So]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: bsobel

Just because he works at Columbia doesn't mean he's competent.

Well she got her BS at MIT and her MS and PHD in Marine Geology from Columbia. But, I'm sure you know more than she does, you're on the internet so that clearly makes you an expert in every topic.

Look, argument from authority is not a valid argument tactic. Just because this individual has degrees from reputable institutions does NOT mean she's right. IIRC, Fred Phelps was a reputable attorney at one time. Many professors hold some really silly ideas.

Look, this isn't some PHD trying to find Noah's ark and claiming its in Turkey. This is someone who's research suggests that impact events are more common than we thought they were. For some time it was believed they were 100k year events, then 10k year events. A group of people is suggesting it could be as low as 1k year events.

As I posted, I personally believe much more research is needed here. When I see valid studies finding impact events, the large chevrons (remember, the crater was found from triangulating the the chevrons). No one is really arguing if an impact occurred, the debate is more around when it occurred. I find the impact event fits Occam's best. It accounts for why widely dispersed populations have a similar mythological story. It also (at least to me) accounts for why the last 5k years of human societal evolution has been much more distinct than the last 50k years. This is the first good run we've had at it in awhile

You're right, it's not totally crazy like "there's a physical ark in Turkey" *but* it still strikes me as a lot less likely than:
1. People live near water
2. Water floods periodically
3. People talk about floods for a long time
4. "A long time ago" == Your grandparent's time to a preliterate culture.
5. ~6k yrs ago is when writing began to appear
6. Writing fixes the time of events.
7. Therefore, events that happened before the advent of writing are culturally estimated to be ~100 years in the past, or, still around ~6k years ago.

That explanation doesn't require me to posit any phenomenon or event that is not already thoroughly established and understood.

And the rise of technology seems much more easily explained by the logarithmic growth of population density and technology.

 

[Leafy]

Originally posted by: Tweak155
It also doesn't say to not jump off a cliff, so we assume it condones that?

I will respond to these passages / statements on Sandorski's reply.

This is what you were responding too, if the heat of debate has gotten to your head so much that you can't remember:

Originally posted by: videogames101
How so? Where in the bible does it say slavery is bad? And wait, does the bible give the price of a dead slave? why yes... sounds like it condones slavery to me.

It condones slavery by providing methods of regulation. An immoral action that we know today is immoral (most of us), and yet the Bible - the book famous for being a book of multiple choice - says nothing about its cruelty, its inhumanity. Instead, it provides regulation, suggesting who to enslave and how to enslave them, how hard to beat them, etc.

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
It happened, however I believe it's mis-interpreted as being the literal sense instead of the figurative sense.

A guy builds a boat, shoves two of each of his livestock on it, and everywhere he knew got covered with water, and it took him a long time to find land again, and he had to start over. This makes perfect sense. His world, being everywhere he ever saw, knew, and all the way to the horizon got covered with water. To him, that was everything. A boat that can fit two cows, two horses, two chickens, and two goats on it isn't unfeasable at all.

What ISN'T possible is two of every species on earth for 40 days. Someone's gotta eat, and someone's going to be dinner if you know what I mean. And it would take a really really long time to spread the animals throughout the globe. And lets face it, once you open the gates and let the animals out on their own it's going to be a food chain demonstration.

Genesis 6:15

This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high.

Tell me, what am I mis-interpreting in the literal? Are you saying to just completely disregard the literal text but believe the passage figuratively as in there was a flood? In that case, you're cherry-picking.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: bsobel

Just because he works at Columbia doesn't mean he's competent.

Well she got her BS at MIT and her MS and PHD in Marine Geology from Columbia. But, I'm sure you know more than she does, you're on the internet so that clearly makes you an expert in every topic.

Look, argument from authority is not a valid argument tactic. Just because this individual has degrees from reputable institutions does NOT mean she's right. IIRC, Fred Phelps was a reputable attorney at one time. Many professors hold some really silly ideas.

It is valid and prudent to be skeptical of extraordinary claims in the absence of extraordinary evidence, no matter who makes the claim.

Something this big has to be evidenced from multiple people and discussed thoroughly before it is reasonable to accept it as a preferable explanation to a simple hypothesis that requires a massive previously unobserved impact event.

The evidence is pretty extraordinary, imo.

If you want an extraordinary claim, how about a prehistoric man constructing a boat the size of small stadium that's also a complete and self-contained zoo, far more complex than any ever known to have existed. Where's the extraordinary evidence in support of this?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: Leafy
Genesis 6:15

This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high.

Tell me, what am I mis-interpreting in the literal? Are you saying to just completely disregard the literal text but believe the passage figuratively as in there was a flood? In that case, you're cherry-picking.

A cubit is roughly 18" according to Wikipedia (though it varies), which puts it at roughly 450 long, and 75 feet wide. This is less area than a high school football field. Given that it is also 45 feet tall, for the sake of argument I'll say it was 5 stories. So 168,750 square feet. Or roughly 3x the size of a high school football field (57,600 square feet, not counting the sidelines). Go to your local farm and see how many animals you think would fit in three football fields.

I don't doubt that someone had a boat that big. It's a big, but possible. And fitting their livestock on it would work well. It is a big boat, and a lot of supplies can be held on something that size.

Also note, in that space you must hold the food for said animals.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

That keel must have been made of freaking steel

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
That keel must have been made of freaking steel

Gopher wood.
But nobody knows if that is an extinct species of tree or if it is some other current wood we changed the name on.

The Greek Septuagint (3rd?1st centuries BC) translated it as xylon tetragonon, "squared timber".[1] Similarly, the Latin Vulgate (5th century AD) rendered it as lignis levigatis, "smoothed (possibly planed) wood".

The Jewish Encyclopedia believes it was most likely a translation of the Babylonian "gushure i÷ erini" (cedar-beams), or the Assyrian "giparu" (reed).

Many modern English translations tend to favour cypress (although otherwise the word for "cypress" in Biblical Hebrew is brosh). This was espoused (among others) by Adam Clarke, a Methodist theologian famous for his commentary on the Bible: Clarke cited the resemblance between Greek word for cypress, kuparisson and the Hebrew word gophar.

Other suggestions include pine, cedar, fir, ebony, wicker, juniper, acacia, boxwood, slimed bulrushes and resinous wood, and even American trees such as Cladrastis kentukea (American yellowwood), although this type of gopherwood has no known relation to the material of Noah's Ark.

Others, noting the physical similarity between the Hebrew letters g and k, suggest that the word may actually be kopher, the Hebrew word meaning "pitch"; thus kopher wood would be pitched wood. Recent suggestions have included a lamination process (to strengthen the Ark), or a now-lost type of tree, but there is no consensus.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: Leafy
Genesis 6:15

This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high.

Tell me, what am I mis-interpreting in the literal? Are you saying to just completely disregard the literal text but believe the passage figuratively as in there was a flood? In that case, you're cherry-picking.

A cubit is roughly 18" according to Wikipedia (though it varies), which puts it at roughly 450 long, and 75 feet wide. This is less area than a high school football field. Given that it is also 45 feet tall, for the sake of argument I'll say it was 5 stories. So 168,750 square feet. Or roughly 3x the size of a high school football field (57,600 square feet, not counting the sidelines). Go to your local farm and see how many animals you think would fit in three football fields.

I don't doubt that someone had a boat that big. It's a big, but possible. And fitting their livestock on it would work well. It is a big boat, and a lot of supplies can be held on something that size.

Also note, in that space you must hold the food for said animals.

Food enough for millions and millions of animals/insects for 40 days plus the people. God must be pretty wonderous or maybe they hit Costco before the flood.

 

[bsobel]

5. ~6k yrs ago is when writing began to appear
6. Writing fixes the time of events.
7. Therefore, events that happened before the advent of writing are culturally estimated to be ~100 years in the past, or, still around ~6k years ago.

How do you explain that 14 cultures mention the solar eclipse at the time of the event?

 

[ProfJohn]

I believe the current idea among biblical scholars, including clergy, is that the Noah's Ark story is not literal, but an analogy.

There is however evidence of a great flood taking place in that area around the time of Noah's Ark.

It is very likely the story came from the rising or filling of the Black Sea. There are numerous Greek towns and sites that sit under water now.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
That keel must have been made of freaking steel

Gopher wood.
But nobody knows if that is an extinct species of tree or if it is some other current wood we changed the name on.

The Greek Septuagint (3rd?1st centuries BC) translated it as xylon tetragonon, "squared timber".[1] Similarly, the Latin Vulgate (5th century AD) rendered it as lignis levigatis, "smoothed (possibly planed) wood".

The Jewish Encyclopedia believes it was most likely a translation of the Babylonian "gushure i÷ erini" (cedar-beams), or the Assyrian "giparu" (reed).

Many modern English translations tend to favour cypress (although otherwise the word for "cypress" in Biblical Hebrew is brosh). This was espoused (among others) by Adam Clarke, a Methodist theologian famous for his commentary on the Bible: Clarke cited the resemblance between Greek word for cypress, kuparisson and the Hebrew word gophar.

Other suggestions include pine, cedar, fir, ebony, wicker, juniper, acacia, boxwood, slimed bulrushes and resinous wood, and even American trees such as Cladrastis kentukea (American yellowwood), although this type of gopherwood has no known relation to the material of Noah's Ark.

Others, noting the physical similarity between the Hebrew letters g and k, suggest that the word may actually be kopher, the Hebrew word meaning "pitch"; thus kopher wood would be pitched wood. Recent suggestions have included a lamination process (to strengthen the Ark), or a now-lost type of tree, but there is no consensus.

heh gopher wood. heh.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
That keel must have been made of freaking steel

Yeah, I mentioned something like that. The stresses on a ship of that size on a very stormy sea would be immense. And it doesn't look like it has much of anything on it to stabilize it and prevent a good old fashioned barrel roll. Just hitting a good swell would probably cause it to split in half, or else twist apart.

Maybe he had some black ironwood or something, though he'd better have had some damn hard steel tools to work with, or else he'd have likely needed a team of people there to continually sharpen his axes and other tooling.
:laugh:

Originally posted by: bsobel

5. ~6k yrs ago is when writing began to appear
6. Writing fixes the time of events.
7. Therefore, events that happened before the advent of writing are culturally estimated to be ~100 years in the past, or, still around ~6k years ago.

How do you explain that 14 cultures mention the solar eclipse at the time of the event?

Eclipse, precisely? Or a darkening of the sun by a large object passing nearby?

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: Leafy
Genesis 6:15

This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high.

Tell me, what am I mis-interpreting in the literal? Are you saying to just completely disregard the literal text but believe the passage figuratively as in there was a flood? In that case, you're cherry-picking.

A cubit is roughly 18" according to Wikipedia (though it varies), which puts it at roughly 450 long, and 75 feet wide. This is less area than a high school football field. Given that it is also 45 feet tall, for the sake of argument I'll say it was 5 stories. So 168,750 square feet. Or roughly 3x the size of a high school football field (57,600 square feet, not counting the sidelines). Go to your local farm and see how many animals you think would fit in three football fields.

I don't doubt that someone had a boat that big. It's a big, but possible. And fitting their livestock on it would work well. It is a big boat, and a lot of supplies can be held on something that size.

Also note, in that space you must hold the food for said animals.

JUST counting vertebrates, there are about 60,000 different species. Sure, they can fit LOTS of livestock, but to think that they could gather 2 of each species?!

 

[bsobel]

http://discovermagazine.com/20...cause-the-great-flood/

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: Leafy
Genesis 6:15

This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high.

Tell me, what am I mis-interpreting in the literal? Are you saying to just completely disregard the literal text but believe the passage figuratively as in there was a flood? In that case, you're cherry-picking.

A cubit is roughly 18" according to Wikipedia (though it varies), which puts it at roughly 450 long, and 75 feet wide. This is less area than a high school football field. Given that it is also 45 feet tall, for the sake of argument I'll say it was 5 stories. So 168,750 square feet. Or roughly 3x the size of a high school football field (57,600 square feet, not counting the sidelines). Go to your local farm and see how many animals you think would fit in three football fields.

I don't doubt that someone had a boat that big. It's a big, but possible. And fitting their livestock on it would work well. It is a big boat, and a lot of supplies can be held on something that size.

Also note, in that space you must hold the food for said animals.

JUST counting vertebrates, there are about 60,000 different species. Sure, they can fit LOTS of livestock, but to think that they could gather 2 of each species?!

You've also got to count extinct species. Tyranosaurs, wooly mammoths, american cheetahs, wooly mammoths, etc. Even raptors, but they were so smart they probably built their own boat out of titanium and graphite composites.

Not to mention food... where would Noah get the eucalyptus for the koala bears?

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I believe the current idea among biblical scholars, including clergy, is that the Noah's Ark story is not literal, but an analogy.

Umm every bible story is not literal.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: Leafy
Genesis 6:15

This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high.

Tell me, what am I mis-interpreting in the literal? Are you saying to just completely disregard the literal text but believe the passage figuratively as in there was a flood? In that case, you're cherry-picking.

A cubit is roughly 18" according to Wikipedia (though it varies), which puts it at roughly 450 long, and 75 feet wide. This is less area than a high school football field. Given that it is also 45 feet tall, for the sake of argument I'll say it was 5 stories. So 168,750 square feet. Or roughly 3x the size of a high school football field (57,600 square feet, not counting the sidelines). Go to your local farm and see how many animals you think would fit in three football fields.

I don't doubt that someone had a boat that big. It's a big, but possible. And fitting their livestock on it would work well. It is a big boat, and a lot of supplies can be held on something that size.

Also note, in that space you must hold the food for said animals.

JUST counting vertebrates, there are about 60,000 different species. Sure, they can fit LOTS of livestock, but to think that they could gather 2 of each species?!

You've also got to count extinct species. Tyranosaurs, wooly mammoths, american cheetahs, wooly mammoths, etc. Even raptors, but they were so smart they probably built their own boat out of titanium and graphite composites.

Not to mention food... where would Noah get the eucalyptus for the koala bears?

The Eucalyptus trees on the south end of the fiesta deck... duh.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: Leafy
Genesis 6:15

This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high.

Tell me, what am I mis-interpreting in the literal? Are you saying to just completely disregard the literal text but believe the passage figuratively as in there was a flood? In that case, you're cherry-picking.

A cubit is roughly 18" according to Wikipedia (though it varies), which puts it at roughly 450 long, and 75 feet wide. This is less area than a high school football field. Given that it is also 45 feet tall, for the sake of argument I'll say it was 5 stories. So 168,750 square feet. Or roughly 3x the size of a high school football field (57,600 square feet, not counting the sidelines). Go to your local farm and see how many animals you think would fit in three football fields.

I don't doubt that someone had a boat that big. It's a big, but possible. And fitting their livestock on it would work well. It is a big boat, and a lot of supplies can be held on something that size.

Also note, in that space you must hold the food for said animals.

JUST counting vertebrates, there are about 60,000 different species. Sure, they can fit LOTS of livestock, but to think that they could gather 2 of each species?!

But don't you see? There were fewer "kinds" of animals back then, and since they walked off the ark they all proceeded to hyper-evolve into the taxonomic diversity that the vast majority of biologists erroneously interpret to be the result of millions of years of regular evolution.

/mental gymnastics

 

[Semper Fi]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: Crono
Yes, I believe in the story of Noah's ark, and a global flood that occurred around 5,000 years ago.
I know current science regarding the matter is to the contrary, but scientific findings always change the previously held views as time moves forward. A lot of the ideas that we hold true today were once thought as foolish, and many ideas that were believed to be true at one point by scientists (ether, anyone?) are now shown to be false.
Interpretation of data is highly dependent on the core beliefs and opinions of those doing the interpreting.

If 20,000 feet of water or more covered the earth at one time, what would the effects on the earth be, due to the massive pressure? What would happen after the water eventually receded? Would it freeze at the poles?

Interesting that one would decry science as it is ever changing and self improving, yet cling to stories written in the Bronze Age as undeniable truth.

Argumentum ad antiquitatem.

If science is ever changing, then that means many things are most definitely wrong right now, and that we will only discover in the future what is correct.

I hold to the absolute truth of the Bible. Not that it is a scientific document, but a self disclosure of God, and a moral guide. All that is contained in the Bible, I hold to be true.

Argumentum ad antiquitatem does not apply, because I am not making mention of how old the Bible is.

You got a couple major errors right there. Errors that blind you to truth.

No, Crono is not the one blind to the truth.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Gibsons
You've also got to count extinct species. Tyranosaurs, wooly mammoths, american cheetahs, wooly mammoths, etc. Even raptors, but they were so smart they probably built their own boat out of titanium and graphite composites.

Not to mention food... where would Noah get the eucalyptus for the koala bears?

The raptors of course had Raptor Jesus to help them out.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: Leafy
Genesis 6:15

This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high.

Tell me, what am I mis-interpreting in the literal? Are you saying to just completely disregard the literal text but believe the passage figuratively as in there was a flood? In that case, you're cherry-picking.

A cubit is roughly 18" according to Wikipedia (though it varies), which puts it at roughly 450 long, and 75 feet wide. This is less area than a high school football field. Given that it is also 45 feet tall, for the sake of argument I'll say it was 5 stories. So 168,750 square feet. Or roughly 3x the size of a high school football field (57,600 square feet, not counting the sidelines). Go to your local farm and see how many animals you think would fit in three football fields.

I don't doubt that someone had a boat that big. It's a big, but possible. And fitting their livestock on it would work well. It is a big boat, and a lot of supplies can be held on something that size.

Also note, in that space you must hold the food for said animals.

JUST counting vertebrates, there are about 60,000 different species. Sure, they can fit LOTS of livestock, but to think that they could gather 2 of each species?!

But don't you see? There were fewer "kinds" of animals back then, and since they walked off the ark they all proceeded to hyper-evolve into the taxonomic diversity that the vast majority of biologists erroneously interpret to be the result of millions of years of regular evolution.

/mental gymnastics

I forgot! So, to sum it up:
Man has never witnessed species evolving into another species (so say the literal interpretation people.) And, 90% of the species on earth have evolved long after man was here, but none of them ever noticed it until Darwin came along. And, somehow, we still don't have all those "missing links." Of course! How could I have been so blind as to actually believe the millions of pieces of evidence to the contrary, and completely overlook the lack of any evidence for what really happened.

 

[Tweak155]

Originally posted by: Leafy

This is what you were responding too, if the heat of debate has gotten to your head so much that you can't remember:

Originally posted by: videogames101
How so? Where in the bible does it say slavery is bad? And wait, does the bible give the price of a dead slave? why yes... sounds like it condones slavery to me.

Actually THIS is what I was responding to. I can respond to what I want to thank you.

Either way its a dead point that isn't relative to the OP.

 

[Chiropteran]

Didn't Indiana Jones discover the Ark in his first movie? Is that not proof enough?

 

[silverpig]

How'd he sail all the way to North America to get a grizzly bear?

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: silverpig
How'd he sail all the way to North America to get a grizzly bear?

And then capture it, and then feed it, and then mate it.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: bsobel
http://discovermagazine.com/20...cause-the-great-flood/

LOL, dude, that's just another news story covering the same guy.