The Government does know more than me about a great many things.

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Rainsford
...
And your argument is equally silly because you're substituting one extreme for the other. Consumers COULD be very well educated about all the products a company makes and band together to make the appropriate demands, but here's the thing...quite often they don't. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You're right that transfats have been removed from many foods because many consumers are educated on this topic. But while consumers COULD have demanded lead free gasoline, they didn't, mostly because the average consumer did NOT have the information necessary to make that decision.

What's stupid here isn't liberal or conservative views, it's the one size fits all mentality that gives rise to extremists on both sides who think the answer to every question of government intervention or not must be answered the same way. "Big government" and "small government" are both ridiculous ideologies because not every situation is the same, and treating them as if they were seems a lot like the guy with just a hammer seeing every problem as something that can be solved by hammering.

Where's the ideology that says we should look at every individual issue and decide if the government can provide a good solution or if it's best left alone? Call me crazy, but that seems like a way better idea if you ask me.

Perhaps it would force people to be more informed on the decisions they make on a day to day basis. Most are hesitant to support the small government way of life because they've come to rely on government for everything.

Government is involved in so many things around the world it's ridiculous; in quebec all electricity is owned and sold by government, in ontario all liquor and beer is owned and sold by government, in BC all insurance is owned and sold by the government. When people are born, they accept past traditions without clearly understanding or debating the reasons for these institutions. If you ask most Canadians, they will tell you that healthcare is something the state should administer and nobody else because that's what we've been born into. Nobody challenges it or makes significant efforts to reform it because that would be politically unpopular. This mindset prevents improvement and fails all people who are forced to use the system. Where does one draw the line with an institution that can be infinite in size! Techs has in effect advocated no limit in government's size, jurisdiction and intervention; a horrible situation to say the least!

The three essentials for life are food, clothing and shelter...all are minimally regulated industries (relative to healthcare/security) and all do quite well in servicing their respective consumers. I don't advocate the elimination of government, I do see some value in regulation (rules and enforcement), but government is many times larger than its own good. A regulatory body should consume no more than 5% of an economy...the animal we have represents 50-60% of our productivity...it's astonishing.

What you're saying is pretty much what I was talking about with regard to taking things too far the other way. You don't like state owned liquor stores being the only place to buy beer, so your solution is to eliminate 90% of the government. You take the position that government is a bad thing in general and should be reduced in size as much as possible, then demonstrate your point by picking the most ridiculous examples of government excess you can find. A prime example of blowing up your house to get rid of termites if I've ever seen it.

Which is basically my point...trying to cram everything into the large generality of "small government" or "big government" is a bit goofy. Why should my views on state owned liquor stores be in any way related to my views on the government trying to keep planes from colliding while circling around Chicago? I think the only rational way to look at it is to take each individual issue one at a time and figure out if the government can help.

Of course I think that's where we differ...I don't view the government as this monster to be eliminated or controlled, it's simply another group and another resource that can be used to provide solutions to problems. Sometimes it might not be the best solution, but sometimes it is, and it seems silly to ignore those times because doctrine says that government is always bad.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: JD50
What is the point of this thread?

He is tired of getting his ass handed to him on other threads so he had to create this one to justify his love of more government.

If you want to win an argument with a liberal...just ask them what government department is well run and most people are happy with...
Then ask them why should they be given the authority to expand their jurisdiction.
...

I think you're confusing being a smart-ass with actually making an intelligent argument. People love to complain about everything they possibly can, asking the average person what government department is well run and they are happy with, you're going to get a dumb answer because the average person has no idea what the government does or how efficiently it does it. It's human nature to complain, but very few people notice things when they just work.

I guess most people couldn't be bothered to read the whole post.
The problem is not that we rely on the government too much, or that we would be better off with less government regulation.
Clearly we need government regulation.
We just need BETTER government.

There's no checks and balances in place to force government to improve and adapt as you advocate. In the private sector there's competition, consumers who are given the choice between products, investors who can reduce an entity to nothing. With government you don't get this accountability and this will never change in any significant way.

Isn't this the whole idea of democracy? It's a little bit clunky of a process, but if our elected officials are really screwing around, they tend to be out on their ass.

And let's be honest, the private sector is no prize either. The free market looks great on paper, but in real life the problem is that the free market isn't really as free as you think. It works too, after a fashion, but the idea that it's the example to hold government to misses a few key points.

 

[palehorse]

In the spirit of useless threads and posts, I'd just like to contribute by letting everyone here know that I took a nice healthy deuce this afternoon... I had to use the bathroom on the middle floor of my townhouse because the one in my basement has an unidentified steady leak, so we turned off the water to that toilet until I can get in there to check out the cock and ball...

Also, my personal bathroom upstairs is currently suffering from "Weak Flush Syndrome," so it's not advisable for any man to make his business there... it's an automatic triple-flush situation when you have to go there.

needless to say, we have some plumming issues at the Palehorse house...

The only problem with dropping the kids off in the middle floor bathroom is the tendency for that one to be used by company. My wife's girlfriends dont like the smell. I leave behind... sometimes... but in all seriousness, I don't really care what they think.

anyways, GG techs... GREAT THREAD! :roll:

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
In the spirit of useless threads and posts, I'd just like to contribute by letting everyone here know that I took a nice healthy deuce this afternoon... I had to use the bathroom on the middle floor of my townhouse because the one in my basement has an unidentified steady leak, so we turned off the water to that toilet until I can get in there to check out the cock and ball...

Also, my personal bathroom upstairs is currently suffering from "Weak Flush Syndrome," so it's not advisable for any man to make his business there... it's an automatic triple-flush situation when you have to go there.

needless to say, we have some plumming issues at the Palehorse house...

The only problem with dropping the kids off in the middle floor bathroom is the tendency for that one to be used by company. My wife's girlfriends dont like the smell. I leave behind... sometimes... but in all seriousness, I don't really care what they think.

anyways, GG techs... GREAT THREAD! :roll:

You know, there's something to be said for the fellow who, having nothing intelligent to say, doesn't feel compelled to demonstrate that fact to everyone around him.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: JD50
What is the point of this thread?

He is tired of getting his ass handed to him on other threads so he had to create this one to justify his love of more government.

If you want to win an argument with a liberal...just ask them what government department is well run and most people are happy with...
Then ask them why should they be given the authority to expand their jurisdiction.

...

I think you're confusing being a smart-ass with actually making an intelligent argument. People love to complain about everything they possibly can, asking the average person what government department is well run and they are happy with, you're going to get a dumb answer because the average person has no idea what the government does or how efficiently it does it. It's human nature to complain, but very few people notice things when they just work.

Oh please. Apparently you've never worked for the government or with the government. It's a joke.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Thank goodness we have experts in government to tell us when to start wars.

Thank goodness we have patriot acts to protect us from fellow Americans.

Thank goodness we have taxes and regulations to sink our economy.

Thank goodness we have government to ENFORCE upon the states and local authorities that no one shall enforce the border and immigration laws.

Why is it that all of the big government fools ignore this? Well, except for when they are bitching about GWB.

 

[OokiiNeko]

It is estimated that government regulations cost the economy between $1 and $1.5 trillion a year. That works out to $4000ish per person.
Health care regulations cost us $169 billion a year themselves. A lot of this is due to over regulation caused by knee jerk decisions.

So you believe if we de-regulated everything, all would be fine?

Our beef and milk would be steroid free, the chickens would never see a gram of arsenic in their food, our cows would never be eating ground up cows, cats and dogs, some of which died from disease, our crops never oversprayed with poisons that put most countries` biological weapons programs to shame.

None of that, and a hell of a lot more, would happen if ONLY we would get rid of those pesky regulations.

You really, REALLY, need to go out into the world and experience it some more.

 

[shortylickens]

I partially agree with the OP, but I also agree with folks like Stunt. So I guess I am the Devils Advocate here.

We do need the government for some things, this is basic knowledge for anyone who has a small amount of college behind them. Humans need to organize to be sucessful, that organization eventually leads to a governing body. More often than not they will make a set of rules (laws) for us to live by, for the common good. This is fine.

The problems occur when the governing body starts to think its better than the people or "knows more" than the people, which is a little ironic because the government doesnt have computers or robots making decisions, it has PEOPLE making decisions.
Eventually it starts to make decisions for us instead of with us. Thats not democracy and thats certainly not a representative republic.

A conspiracy theorist could argue that if the government didnt put so much time and effort into hiding things from the general public, then the general public would be better able to make informed decisions and live their own lives.

I'm not in the conspiracy theory camp but I am in the higher education camp.
I truly believe that a society with a good education system will have people better able to make good decisions and live their lives well, thus reducing the need for government to control every little aspect of our lives.
Just look at the U.S. compared to many crummy little african countries with piss-poor or no institutionalized education. It really does make a difference.

Now compare the U.S. to a northern european country where a majority of the population gets advanced or higher learning. Again there is a noticeable difference in the quality of life and how people deal with major issues.

(NOTE: This example generally works better for those who have actually travelled around the world a bit, even better if they have lived overseas for a while.)

I seriously suggest we stop dumping billions of dollars into a sand hole and start dumping it into our education and make our future look a little better.
Its the governments infinite wisdom that caused our current situation and is failing to fix/improve it.

 

[RichardE]

The government did all it could to keep lead in gas, it was the people that got it removed eventually. So because you don't know this, Im ignoring whatever else you wrote.


The government is an aristocrat, when you realize that you will realize what it takes to make changes.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: JD50
What is the point of this thread?

He is tired of getting his ass handed to him on other threads so he had to create this one to justify his love of more government.

If you want to win an argument with a liberal...just ask them what government department is well run and most people are happy with...
Then ask them why should they be given the authority to expand their jurisdiction.

...

I think you're confusing being a smart-ass with actually making an intelligent argument. People love to complain about everything they possibly can, asking the average person what government department is well run and they are happy with, you're going to get a dumb answer because the average person has no idea what the government does or how efficiently it does it. It's human nature to complain, but very few people notice things when they just work.

Oh please. Apparently you've never worked for the government or with the government. It's a joke.

Actually, I have, and while I will agree that there are things the government could do better at, there are also things I think they do considerably better than the private sector. Just as one example, the government does an excellent job of funding scientific and technological research, something most private sector companies have all but abandoned unless there is an obvious quick buck to be made.

But like I said, it's human nature to bitch and moan without really looking at the big picture. Nobody likes the DMV, but very few people reflect on the generally high quality of the roads they took on their way to the DMV. TSA is a big, incompetent pain in the ass, but how often do airplanes collide around even the busiest of airports?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: JD50
What is the point of this thread?

He is tired of getting his ass handed to him on other threads so he had to create this one to justify his love of more government.

If you want to win an argument with a liberal...just ask them what government department is well run and most people are happy with...
Then ask them why should they be given the authority to expand their jurisdiction.

...

I think you're confusing being a smart-ass with actually making an intelligent argument. People love to complain about everything they possibly can, asking the average person what government department is well run and they are happy with, you're going to get a dumb answer because the average person has no idea what the government does or how efficiently it does it. It's human nature to complain, but very few people notice things when they just work.

Oh please. Apparently you've never worked for the government or with the government. It's a joke.

Actually, I have, and while I will agree that there are things the government could do better at, there are also things I think they do considerably better than the private sector. Just as one example, the government does an excellent job of funding scientific and technological research, something most private sector companies have all but abandoned unless there is an obvious quick buck to be made.

But like I said, it's human nature to bitch and moan without really looking at the big picture. Nobody likes the DMV, but very few people reflect on the generally high quality of the roads they took on their way to the DMV. TSA is a big, incompetent pain in the ass, but how often do airplanes collide around even the busiest of airports?

Holy shit I agree with you. Except for the government does a better job of funding scientific research part. Youre dead wrong about that Most, if not all, of scientific discoveries are made in the private sector. The rest you're spot on.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
In the spirit of useless threads and posts, I'd just like to contribute by letting everyone here know that I took a nice healthy deuce this afternoon... I had to use the bathroom on the middle floor of my townhouse because the one in my basement has an unidentified steady leak, so we turned off the water to that toilet until I can get in there to check out the cock and ball...

Also, my personal bathroom upstairs is currently suffering from "Weak Flush Syndrome," so it's not advisable for any man to make his business there... it's an automatic triple-flush situation when you have to go there.

needless to say, we have some plumming issues at the Palehorse house...

The only problem with dropping the kids off in the middle floor bathroom is the tendency for that one to be used by company. My wife's girlfriends dont like the smell. I leave behind... sometimes... but in all seriousness, I don't really care what they think.

anyways, GG techs... GREAT THREAD! :roll:

You know, there's something to be said for the fellow who, having nothing intelligent to say, doesn't feel compelled to demonstrate that fact to everyone around him.

I'm sorry to see that you are humorless enough to completely miss PH's intended point.

 

[Mavtek3100]

The OP obviously hasn't seen the Movie "Idiocrisy" I holy recommend it for you OP!

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
The OP obviously hasn't seen the Movie "Idiocrisy" I holy recommend it for you OP!

Just preserving the evidence. Carry on.

 

[Mavtek3100]

Ironwing got me, it's "wholly" and I have no idea the spelling of the fake word "Idiocricy".

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
In the spirit of useless threads and posts, I'd just like to contribute by letting everyone here know that I took a nice healthy deuce this afternoon... I had to use the bathroom on the middle floor of my townhouse because the one in my basement has an unidentified steady leak, so we turned off the water to that toilet until I can get in there to check out the cock and ball...

Also, my personal bathroom upstairs is currently suffering from "Weak Flush Syndrome," so it's not advisable for any man to make his business there... it's an automatic triple-flush situation when you have to go there.

needless to say, we have some plumming issues at the Palehorse house...

The only problem with dropping the kids off in the middle floor bathroom is the tendency for that one to be used by company. My wife's girlfriends dont like the smell. I leave behind... sometimes... but in all seriousness, I don't really care what they think.

anyways, GG techs... GREAT THREAD! :roll:

You know, there's something to be said for the fellow who, having nothing intelligent to say, doesn't feel compelled to demonstrate that fact to everyone around him.

I'm sorry to see that you are humorless enough to completely miss PH's intended point.

I think the point of having no point may be too pointed for some...

 

[brxndxn]

The government is made out of the same flawed human beings that it governs. You cannot trust the government any more than you can trust any other set of individuals.

 

[dawp]

Originally posted by: brxndxn
The government is made out of the same flawed human beings that it governs. You cannot trust the government any more than you can trust any other set of individuals.

Humm, maybe we should be working towards something like the the senario in Asimov's ' The Evitable Conflict' where machine logic is controlling mankind to minimize damage to mankind as a whole.I always like Asimov.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
In the spirit of useless threads and posts, I'd just like to contribute by letting everyone here know that I took a nice healthy deuce this afternoon... I had to use the bathroom on the middle floor of my townhouse because the one in my basement has an unidentified steady leak, so we turned off the water to that toilet until I can get in there to check out the cock and ball...

Also, my personal bathroom upstairs is currently suffering from "Weak Flush Syndrome," so it's not advisable for any man to make his business there... it's an automatic triple-flush situation when you have to go there.

needless to say, we have some plumming issues at the Palehorse house...

The only problem with dropping the kids off in the middle floor bathroom is the tendency for that one to be used by company. My wife's girlfriends dont like the smell. I leave behind... sometimes... but in all seriousness, I don't really care what they think.

anyways, GG techs... GREAT THREAD! :roll:

You know, there's something to be said for the fellow who, having nothing intelligent to say, doesn't feel compelled to demonstrate that fact to everyone around him.

I'm sorry to see that you are humorless enough to completely miss PH's intended point.

I think the point of having no point may be too pointed for some...

So what was it, intelligent, that you wanted to say? I missed it too. Nobody has had a thing to say about your toilet situation, but techs has got people frothing. There seems to be lots of passion for his subject, no?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: JD50
What is the point of this thread?

He is tired of getting his ass handed to him on other threads so he had to create this one to justify his love of more government.

If you want to win an argument with a liberal...just ask them what government department is well run and most people are happy with...
Then ask them why should they be given the authority to expand their jurisdiction.

...

I think you're confusing being a smart-ass with actually making an intelligent argument. People love to complain about everything they possibly can, asking the average person what government department is well run and they are happy with, you're going to get a dumb answer because the average person has no idea what the government does or how efficiently it does it. It's human nature to complain, but very few people notice things when they just work.

Oh please. Apparently you've never worked for the government or with the government. It's a joke.

Actually, I have, and while I will agree that there are things the government could do better at, there are also things I think they do considerably better than the private sector. Just as one example, the government does an excellent job of funding scientific and technological research, something most private sector companies have all but abandoned unless there is an obvious quick buck to be made.

But like I said, it's human nature to bitch and moan without really looking at the big picture. Nobody likes the DMV, but very few people reflect on the generally high quality of the roads they took on their way to the DMV. TSA is a big, incompetent pain in the ass, but how often do airplanes collide around even the busiest of airports?

I agree with you for the most part, and I do believe that government does have its place. However, at least from what I have seen, the efficiency, work ethic, attitude, etc... in the government compared to private sector is like night and day.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Nobody has had a thing to say about your toilet situation, but techs has got people frothing.

It's called "trolling," and lately, Techs has gotten it down to a science.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Nobody has had a thing to say about your toilet situation, but techs has got people frothing.

It's called "trolling," and lately, Techs has gotten it down to a science.

I can't comment on his actual intention, but the topic is a central and perennial theme in human affairs and one I find deeply interesting, so regardless of what he may have been up to or my attitude to that opinion, there is something I could say relevant to the issue, if I wanted to inject what I think is meaningful on the subject, no? I guess I'm not a troll Nazi.

edit: Actually, your post didn't bother me either. I thought it was fair.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Clearly we need government regulation.

Yes, won't someone please expand the government to the point I don't have to think about anything any more. Lord knows that the bigger the government gets, the better my life will be. Lack of personal thought and responsibility FTW! Hell, can we get the government to assign us jobs so we don't have to research potential employers or negotiate salary and benefits. Also, free Vioxx prescriptions for all since the government tested it and made sure it was safe. Yeah, that sounds just peachy to me. /sarcasm