The Gospel of Consumption

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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,694
6,256
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Lot's of people fail at capitalism. A lot of it is due to manipulation, coercion, misinformation, etc. There are active forces at play that people seem oblivious to. Plus there's the fact that our education system simply does not teach one how to be a smart consumer. Or that one even needs to be one. I'm very much in favor of free markets, but we are just flat doing it wrong. It's analogous to democracy today for a lot of the same reasons. The influential stack the system in favor of themselves while us peasants are too busy raising kids, paying bills, watching trash on TV, and keeping up with the neighbors to notice or do anything about it. It's like there is some mass mental affliction of people's priorities where, to use a TV analogy, MTV or ESPN > CSPAN.

I would agree completely. The $1,000,00 question is: How do we change that?

Democrats believe the key is a nanny state telling people how to live

Republicans are clueless and don't have any answers

I believe the key is education, and beyond that caveat emptor[/q]

There's a limit to what any one person can know.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,694
6,256
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
There's a limit to what any one person can know.

And you keep lowering that bar...

In this case, Yes. It is impossible for the Consumer to Know all the variables of the myriad of tthings they deal with every day.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Lot's of people fail at capitalism. A lot of it is due to manipulation, coercion, misinformation, etc. There are active forces at play that people seem oblivious to. Plus there's the fact that our education system simply does not teach one how to be a smart consumer. Or that one even needs to be one. I'm very much in favor of free markets, but we are just flat doing it wrong. It's analogous to democracy today for a lot of the same reasons. The influential stack the system in favor of themselves while us peasants are too busy raising kids, paying bills, watching trash on TV, and keeping up with the neighbors to notice or do anything about it. It's like there is some mass mental affliction of people's priorities where, to use a TV analogy, MTV or ESPN > CSPAN.

What's your definition of failing at capitalism? I know there are bunch of people criticizing the state of capitalism, but what's the alternative? Is there a different system that's significantly better than the US's "failed capitalism". Is Frence trouble free with it's 35 work hours and is French more enlightened? Is Singapore with its strict government control better than the US' way of capitalism? Has Canada with it's high taxes and government planning produced better results, both in economic and quality of life?

Let's face it, there is no utopia and human is flawed. We do the best we can but there will always be problems in any system. We can have bunch of "thinkers" sitting there and criticize the system, but until you can show people a different system that works and produces better result, all the talks are just hot air.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,694
6,256
126
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Lot's of people fail at capitalism. A lot of it is due to manipulation, coercion, misinformation, etc. There are active forces at play that people seem oblivious to. Plus there's the fact that our education system simply does not teach one how to be a smart consumer. Or that one even needs to be one. I'm very much in favor of free markets, but we are just flat doing it wrong. It's analogous to democracy today for a lot of the same reasons. The influential stack the system in favor of themselves while us peasants are too busy raising kids, paying bills, watching trash on TV, and keeping up with the neighbors to notice or do anything about it. It's like there is some mass mental affliction of people's priorities where, to use a TV analogy, MTV or ESPN > CSPAN.

What's your definition of failing at capitalism? I know there are bunch of people criticizing the state of capitalism, but what's the alternative? Is there a different system that's significantly better than the US's "failed capitalism". Is Frence trouble free with it's 35 work hours and is French more enlightened? Is Singapore with its strict government control better than the US' way of capitalism? Has Canada with it's high taxes and government planning produced better results, both in economic and quality of life?

Let's face it, there is no utopia and human is flawed. We do the best we can but there will always be problems in any system. We can have bunch of "thinkers" sitting there and criticize the system, but until you can show people a different system that works and produces better result, all the talks are just hot air.

There are many forms of Capitalism. The Deregulated(or at least the US version of Deregulated) is what has failed. Capitalism will still exist, just not in the same form as before 2009.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Lot's of people fail at capitalism. A lot of it is due to manipulation, coercion, misinformation, etc. There are active forces at play that people seem oblivious to. Plus there's the fact that our education system simply does not teach one how to be a smart consumer. Or that one even needs to be one. I'm very much in favor of free markets, but we are just flat doing it wrong. It's analogous to democracy today for a lot of the same reasons. The influential stack the system in favor of themselves while us peasants are too busy raising kids, paying bills, watching trash on TV, and keeping up with the neighbors to notice or do anything about it. It's like there is some mass mental affliction of people's priorities where, to use a TV analogy, MTV or ESPN > CSPAN.

What's your definition of failing at capitalism? I know there are bunch of people criticizing the state of capitalism, but what's the alternative? Is there a different system that's significantly better than the US's "failed capitalism". Is Frence trouble free with it's 35 work hours and is French more enlightened? Is Singapore with its strict government control better than the US' way of capitalism? Has Canada with it's high taxes and government planning produced better results, both in economic and quality of life?

Let's face it, there is no utopia and human is flawed. We do the best we can but there will always be problems in any system. We can have bunch of "thinkers" sitting there and criticize the system, but until you can show people a different system that works and produces better result, all the talks are just hot air.

There are many forms of Capitalism. The Deregulated(or at least the US version of Deregulated) is what has failed. Capitalism will still exist, just not in the same form as before 2009.

Heh, there have been many iterations of capitalism in the US in terms of regulation. The recent crisis is not the first time you have a problem with the system. After the S&L crisis, you got the FIRREA act of 1989. After Enron, you got your Sarbanes-Oxley act of 2002. I am sure after this crisis, there will be another act that regulates the hedge fund and financial instrument more closely.

US capitalism is not deregulated. It just doesn't regulate (or reguate closely) everything under the sun. When there is problem with particular area, people look closer and add regulation. And I disagree that the system has failed. Only one area of the system has failed. US technology sector which is part of the capitalism is still thriving for example.

The question is if you want to regulate everything under the sun to avoid once in 5~10 years failure, but slow the entire system, or just regulate when problems occures and let the rest of the system thrive and stay deregulated.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,521
6,700
126
Have you seen the new hand held LED devise on TV that cures pain. A beautiful young girl puts it on her hand. It is curved to fit the hand ergonomically and then with blue and red LEDs blazing she passes it over her body magically killing all of the pain.

I ordered one and sent it to my dear friend BoberFett hoping his use of it will cure the pain in my ass.

It's FDA approved.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Lot's of people fail at capitalism. A lot of it is due to manipulation, coercion, misinformation, etc. There are active forces at play that people seem oblivious to. Plus there's the fact that our education system simply does not teach one how to be a smart consumer. Or that one even needs to be one. I'm very much in favor of free markets, but we are just flat doing it wrong. It's analogous to democracy today for a lot of the same reasons. The influential stack the system in favor of themselves while us peasants are too busy raising kids, paying bills, watching trash on TV, and keeping up with the neighbors to notice or do anything about it. It's like there is some mass mental affliction of people's priorities where, to use a TV analogy, MTV or ESPN > CSPAN.

What's your definition of failing at capitalism? I know there are bunch of people criticizing the state of capitalism, but what's the alternative? Is there a different system that's significantly better than the US's "failed capitalism". Is Frence trouble free with it's 35 work hours and is French more enlightened? Is Singapore with its strict government control better than the US' way of capitalism? Has Canada with it's high taxes and government planning produced better results, both in economic and quality of life?

Let's face it, there is no utopia and human is flawed. We do the best we can but there will always be problems in any system. We can have bunch of "thinkers" sitting there and criticize the system, but until you can show people a different system that works and produces better result, all the talks are just hot air.

You fail at capitalism when you habitually make economically poor decisions and we have a country full of people making them. I don't want a different system, I simply want the system we have with smarter consumers and less coercion.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
There's a limit to what any one person can know.

And you keep lowering that bar...

In this case, Yes. It is impossible for the Consumer to Know all the variables of the myriad of tthings they deal with every day.

Wrong.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Have you seen the new hand held LED devise on TV that cures pain. A beautiful young girl puts it on her hand. It is curved to fit the hand ergonomically and then with blue and red LEDs blazing she passes it over her body magically killing all of the pain.

I ordered one and sent it to my dear friend BoberFett hoping his use of it will cure the pain in my ass.

It's FDA approved.

You're not supposed to put it IN your ass Moonie. Read the instructions.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: n yusef
Industrialization and consumerism have not improved our quality of life in every dimension. Certain things, such as diet, are very negatively effected by industrialization. Processed food and factory farms have made us fat and diseased. Go to any "third world" nation, and you will eat much better than you do in the so-called civilized world.

Maybe unless the food is dieseased due to lack of proper cultivation or pest control. Of course you also live in a 3rd world dump with 3rd world medical care and a 3rd world water supply.

I wouldnt say the processed foods are the problem. The problem is our standard of living has become such that we live very inactive lives. Sitting around a desk all day consuming a 1000 calorie lunch for cheap. We are all guilty of it. But unless we want to head back to the 17 and 1800s where we are all share croppers working the fields. This is what our plate looks like.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
According to Edward Bernays, one of the founders of the field of public relations and a principal architect of the American Way, the choices available in the polling booth are akin to those at the department store; both should consist of a limited set of offerings that are carefully determined by what Bernays called an ?invisible government? of public-relations experts and advertisers working on behalf of business leaders. Bernays claimed that in a ?democratic society? we are and should be ?governed, our minds . . . molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.?

I've long believed that the existence of the advertising industry makes the idea of a "free market" ridiculous.

When Mercedes Benz makes commercials for $40,000 cars, it means that they think that a thirty second video will influence someone's $40,000 purchase. And I'm sure it does, because every car maker has these commercials.

Let me repeat: a thirty second video influences a $40,000 purchase. Capitalism, and everything else, fails because people--even people with $40,000 cars--are stupid.

How do you propose Mercedez Benz tells consumers about their product?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Lot's of people fail at capitalism. A lot of it is due to manipulation, coercion, misinformation, etc. There are active forces at play that people seem oblivious to. Plus there's the fact that our education system simply does not teach one how to be a smart consumer. Or that one even needs to be one. I'm very much in favor of free markets, but we are just flat doing it wrong. It's analogous to democracy today for a lot of the same reasons. The influential stack the system in favor of themselves while us peasants are too busy raising kids, paying bills, watching trash on TV, and keeping up with the neighbors to notice or do anything about it. It's like there is some mass mental affliction of people's priorities where, to use a TV analogy, MTV or ESPN > CSPAN.

What's your definition of failing at capitalism? I know there are bunch of people criticizing the state of capitalism, but what's the alternative? Is there a different system that's significantly better than the US's "failed capitalism". Is Frence trouble free with it's 35 work hours and is French more enlightened? Is Singapore with its strict government control better than the US' way of capitalism? Has Canada with it's high taxes and government planning produced better results, both in economic and quality of life?

Let's face it, there is no utopia and human is flawed. We do the best we can but there will always be problems in any system. We can have bunch of "thinkers" sitting there and criticize the system, but until you can show people a different system that works and produces better result, all the talks are just hot air.

There are many forms of Capitalism. The Deregulated(or at least the US version of Deregulated) is what has failed. Capitalism will still exist, just not in the same form as before 2009.

Please you are acting as if the entire system is done and never produced a damn thing. We had more regulation and govt intervention in the 1970s and that failed as well. There is no magic pill or combination that will stop the economic cycle of boom and bust. It is all an ongoing giant experiment.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I read this. It was decent. It's true that there are few options for many of us. I can work 40+ or not at all. There are very limited options for most to work 30 hours/week even if they didn't want the extra money. Most are such greedy money hogs, though, that they use everything they have so a reduction in pay would start causing undue stress for them. Personally when I hear about state workers getting unpaid furloughs I think damn that sounds like a nice idea. I would work less for less money at this point because I don't need it all and I don't need it all because I have not centered my life on buying everything I can, chasing that pitifully unsuccessful path toward meaning and happiness.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,521
6,700
126
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I read this. It was decent. It's true that there are few options for many of us. I can work 40+ or not at all. There are very limited options for most to work 30 hours/week even if they didn't want the extra money. Most are such greedy money hogs, though, that they use everything they have so a reduction in pay would start causing undue stress for them. Personally when I hear about state workers getting unpaid furloughs I think damn that sounds like a nice idea. I would work less for less money at this point because I don't need it all and I don't need it all because I have not centered my life on buying everything I can, chasing that pitifully unsuccessful path toward meaning and happiness.

If you look at Moore's law as it applies not only to computing power, but the growth of scientific knowledge in general, and in particular the asymptotic nature of the graph, does that not suggest a point not too far off when the intellect to handle technological advancement and design will have to be handed off to computers. At the point where machines outpace human capacity only they will be able to maintain and advance our rate of change. It strikes me that it is potentially possible for the entire human race to be out of work in almost no time.

Remember the story of the man who was given a wish by his king and he asked for a grain of wheat to be doubled on each square of the chess board, a request the king naturally thought would be no trouble to meet.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
Originally posted by: Jeff7

And if you're spending your money on stupid bullshit (thanks George Carlin), and other people are spending their lives working jobs to create that stupid bullshit, then that doesn't move a society forward. The society just sits there, wallowing in a pool of...yup, bullshit, somehow convinced that it's the greatest thing ever.

RIP Carlin, this ^

Well when you spend your money on stupid shit, it pays people who create that stupid shit.

But those people creating stupid shit with your money don't necessary have to spend that money on stupid shit, they maybe smarter than you and spend the money to put food on their table or something that advances the society.

Rising tide floats all boat. Boat with dumb ppl and smart ppl alike.
A valid point, though that does mean that very few people in the production and consumption path are in the "improving society" category; the majority are simply stagnating it.


 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
According to Edward Bernays, one of the founders of the field of public relations and a principal architect of the American Way, the choices available in the polling booth are akin to those at the department store; both should consist of a limited set of offerings that are carefully determined by what Bernays called an ?invisible government? of public-relations experts and advertisers working on behalf of business leaders. Bernays claimed that in a ?democratic society? we are and should be ?governed, our minds . . . molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.?

I've long believed that the existence of the advertising industry makes the idea of a "free market" ridiculous.

When Mercedes Benz makes commercials for $40,000 cars, it means that they think that a thirty second video will influence someone's $40,000 purchase. And I'm sure it does, because every car maker has these commercials.

Let me repeat: a thirty second video influences a $40,000 purchase. Capitalism, and everything else, fails because people--even people with $40,000 cars--are stupid.

How do you propose Mercedez Benz tells consumers about their product?

If TV commercials work for them, then they should do them. I'm disappointed in the consumers who are influenced by them. I would hope that people would do more research on such an expensive purchase. I would hope that everyone in the market for a Mercedes already knows what they are. After someone test drives a Benz, a BMW and an Audi, does the Benz commercial still influence their purchase? If yes, is it OK to call them an idiot?

Other commercials that disappoint me are ones for specialized commercial tools, like servers or copiers. I would hope that purchases of this magnitude would be evaluated objectively by professionals, who shouldn't be swayed by thirty seconds of video.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I read this. It was decent. It's true that there are few options for many of us. I can work 40+ or not at all. There are very limited options for most to work 30 hours/week even if they didn't want the extra money. Most are such greedy money hogs, though, that they use everything they have so a reduction in pay would start causing undue stress for them. Personally when I hear about state workers getting unpaid furloughs I think damn that sounds like a nice idea. I would work less for less money at this point because I don't need it all and I don't need it all because I have not centered my life on buying everything I can, chasing that pitifully unsuccessful path toward meaning and happiness.

If you look at Moore's law as it applies not only to computing power, but the growth of scientific knowledge in general, and in particular the asymptotic nature of the graph, does that not suggest a point not too far off when the intellect to handle technological advancement and design will have to be handed off to computers. At the point where machines outpace human capacity only they will be able to maintain and advance our rate of change. It strikes me that it is potentially possible for the entire human race to be out of work in almost no time.

Remember the story of the man who was given a wish by his king and he asked for a grain of wheat to be doubled on each square of the chess board, a request the king naturally thought would be no trouble to meet.
You may be right, but that's the same argument we've heard since the industrial revolution. However, just because they got it wrong then doesn't mean they will continue to. I think ultimately as long as people want to work there will still be work for them in areas computers cannot do like perhaps some creative or other areas. As it is now computers can do a great deal they are not doing and they are not doing it simply because of cost/benefit ratio (like flipping burgers). However, if we reach that point perhaps staying in work won't really matter because we'll all be issued robot assistants when we're born who will do everything and we can live in leisure.
would hope that people would do more research on such an expensive purchase. I would hope that everyone in the market for a Mercedes already knows what they are. After someone test drives a Benz, a BMW and an Audi, does the Benz commercial still influence their purchase?
There is literally no practical argument for buying these cars to begin with, so if a person doesn't buy them for more shallow reasons like appearance or bragging rights why bother to begin with?

Other commercials that disappoint me are ones for specialized commercial tools, like servers or copiers. I would hope that purchases of this magnitude would be evaluated objectively by professionals, who shouldn't be swayed by thirty seconds of video.
I bet you hate drug commercials then :) I sure do.

Commercials that tell me to eat KFC because it's yummy or buy a new car because it's cool are crap. I like commercials that teach me about a new product like a dyson vacuum cleaner. Those at least add some value to my knowledge.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
According to Edward Bernays, one of the founders of the field of public relations and a principal architect of the American Way, the choices available in the polling booth are akin to those at the department store; both should consist of a limited set of offerings that are carefully determined by what Bernays called an ?invisible government? of public-relations experts and advertisers working on behalf of business leaders. Bernays claimed that in a ?democratic society? we are and should be ?governed, our minds . . . molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.?

I've long believed that the existence of the advertising industry makes the idea of a "free market" ridiculous.

When Mercedes Benz makes commercials for $40,000 cars, it means that they think that a thirty second video will influence someone's $40,000 purchase. And I'm sure it does, because every car maker has these commercials.

Let me repeat: a thirty second video influences a $40,000 purchase. Capitalism, and everything else, fails because people--even people with $40,000 cars--are stupid.

How do you propose Mercedez Benz tells consumers about their product?

If TV commercials work for them, then they should do them. I'm disappointed in the consumers who are influenced by them. I would hope that people would do more research on such an expensive purchase. I would hope that everyone in the market for a Mercedes already knows what they are. After someone test drives a Benz, a BMW and an Audi, does the Benz commercial still influence their purchase? If yes, is it OK to call them an idiot?

Other commercials that disappoint me are ones for specialized commercial tools, like servers or copiers. I would hope that purchases of this magnitude would be evaluated objectively by professionals, who shouldn't be swayed by thirty seconds of video.

Well you dont know if the commcerical actually influiences the sale. You only know it puts the product out there to gain the interest of potential buyers. Ultimately most people will test drive the vehicle and decide if they liek it or not regardless of the commercial.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I, for example, was only recently made aware that four out of five dentists recommended Trident to their patients who chew gum.

Thank god for commercials, say I. And I had better find a new dentist because mine has never commented on gum chewing at all.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Thank god for commercials, say I. And I had better find a new dentist because mine has never commented on gum chewing at all.
Not sure mine ever have, either.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,694
6,256
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
There's a limit to what any one person can know.

And you keep lowering that bar...

In this case, Yes. It is impossible for the Consumer to Know all the variables of the myriad of tthings they deal with every day.

Wrong.

Really? You know every possible variable about the Products in your Home that may or may not be cause to Buy/Not Buy? You know all this without Outside sources of Information?

I'm calling Shens.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
There's a limit to what any one person can know.

And you keep lowering that bar...

In this case, Yes. It is impossible for the Consumer to Know all the variables of the myriad of tthings they deal with every day.

Wrong.

Really? You know every possible variable about the Products in your Home that may or may not be cause to Buy/Not Buy? You know all this without Outside sources of Information?

I'm calling Shens.

Outside sources of information? Like education?

No wonder you're so stupid, you're against outside sources of information.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,694
6,256
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: sandorski
There's a limit to what any one person can know.

And you keep lowering that bar...

In this case, Yes. It is impossible for the Consumer to Know all the variables of the myriad of tthings they deal with every day.

Wrong.

Really? You know every possible variable about the Products in your Home that may or may not be cause to Buy/Not Buy? You know all this without Outside sources of Information?

I'm calling Shens.

Outside sources of information? Like education?

No wonder you're so stupid, you're against outside sources of information.

My bad, didn't quite mean it that way. At any rate, my original point stands: You can't know everything you Need to know.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: n yusef
Industrialization and consumerism have not improved our quality of life in every dimension. Certain things, such as diet, are very negatively effected by industrialization. Processed food and factory farms have made us fat and diseased. Go to any "third world" nation, and you will eat much better than you do in the so-called civilized world.

If only the folks in these 'third world' countries were not dying off due to starvation from a lack of this fine food we might have a model to follow... But, I do agree that opening a Starbucks and McDonald's might not be a wise investment even though the consumption of such as they offer would be welcomed they don't often wear shoes and you gotta maintain a clean consumption environment.