The Germans Call It: Soft Totalitarianism

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
I think I trust a culture that has been through fascism and communism to know someone like this when they see it.

Obama's Soft Totalitarianism: Europe Must Protect Itself from America


Is Barack Obama a friend? Revelations about his government's vast spying program call that assumption into doubt. The European Union must protect the Continent from America's reach for omnipotence.

On Tuesday, Barack Obama is coming to Germany. But who, really, will be visiting? He is the 44th president of the United States. He is the first African American to hold the office. He is an intelligent lawyer. And he is a Nobel Peace Prize laureate.

But is he a friend? The revelations brought to us by IT expert Edward Snowden have made certain what paranoid computer geeks and left-wing conspiracy theorists have long claimed: that we are being watched. All the time and everywhere. And it is the Americans who are doing the watching.

On Tuesday, the head of the largest and most all-encompassing surveillance system ever invented is coming for a visit. If Barack Obama is our friend, then we really don't need to be terribly worried about our enemies.

It is embarrassing: Barack Obama will be arriving in Berlin for only the second time, but his visit is coming just as we are learning that the US president is a snoop on a colossal scale. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said that she will speak to the president about the surveillance program run by the National Security Agency, and the Berlin Interior Ministry has sent a set of 16 questions to the US Embassy. But Obama need not be afraid. German Interior Minister Hans Peter Friedrich, to be sure, did say: "That's not how you treat friends." But he wasn't referring to the fact that our trans-Atlantic friends were spying on us. Rather, he meant the criticism of that spying.

Friedrich's reaction is only paradoxical on the surface and can be explained by looking at geopolitical realities. The US is, for the time being, the only global power -- and as such it is the only truly sovereign state in existence. All others are dependent -- either as enemies or allies. And because most prefer to be allies, politicians -- Germany's included -- prefer to grin and bear it.

'It's Legal'

German citizens should be able to expect that their government will protect them from spying by foreign governments. But the German interior minister says instead: "We are grateful for the excellent cooperation with US secret services." Friedrich didn't even try to cover up his own incompetence on the surveillance issue. "Everything we know about it, we have learned from the media," he said. The head of the country's domestic intelligence agency, Hans-Georg Maassen, was not any more enlightened. "I didn't know anything about it," he said. And Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger was also apparently in the dark. "These reports are extremely unsettling," she said.

With all due respect: These are the people who are supposed to be protecting our rights? If it wasn't so frightening, it would be absurd.

Friedrich's quote from the weekend was particularly quaint: "I have no reason to doubt that the US respects rights and the law." Yet in a way, he is right. The problem is not the violation of certain laws. Rather, in the US the laws themselves are the problem. The NSA, in fact, didn't even overreach its own authority when it sucked up 97 billion pieces of data in one single 30-day period last March. Rather, it was acting on the orders of the entire US government, including the executive, legislative and judicial branches, the Democrats, the Republicans, the House of Representatives, the Senate and the Supreme Court. They are all in favor. Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, merely shrugged her shoulders and said: "It's legal."

A Monitored Human Being Is Not a Free One

What, exactly, is the purpose of the National Security Agency? Security, as its name might suggest? No matter in what system or to what purpose: A monitored human being is not a free human being. And every state that systematically contravenes human rights, even in the alleged service of security, is acting criminally.

Those who believed that drone attacks in Pakistan or the camp at Guantanamo were merely regrettable events at the end of the world should stop to reflect. Those who still believed that the torture at Abu Ghraib or that the waterboarding in CIA prisons had nothing to do with them, are now changing their views. Those who thought that we are on the good side and that it is others who are stomping all over human rights are now opening their eyes. A regime is ruling in the United States today that acts in totalitarian ways when it comes to its claim to total control. Soft totalitarianism is still totalitarianism.

We're currently in the midst of a European crisis. But this unexpected flare-up of American imperialism serves as a reminder of the necessity for Europe. Does anyone seriously believe that Obama will ensure the chancellor and her interior minister that the American authorities will respect the rights of German citizens in the future? Only Europe can break the American fantasy of omnipotence. One option would be for Europe to build its own system of networks to prevent American surveillance. Journalist Frank Schirrmacher of the respected Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper recommended that over the weekend. "It would require subsidies and a vision as big as the moon landing," he argues.

A simpler approach would be to just force American firms to respect European laws. The European Commission has the ability to do that. The draft for a new data privacy directive has already been presented. It just has to be implemented. Once that happens, American secret services might still be able to walk all over European law, but if US Internet giants like Google, Apple, Microsoft and Facebook want to continue making money off of a half-billion Europeans, then they will have to abide by our laws. Under the new law, companies caught passing on data in ways not permitted are forced to pay fines. You can be sure that these companies would in turn apply pressure to their own government. The proposal envisions setting that fine at 2 percent of a company's worldwide revenues.

That's a lot of money -- and also a language that America understands.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
Excellent. Not enough people here seem to care, they have been sold hook line and sinker about the omnipresent threat of terrorism and will sell their mothers for assurances they will not be a victim (even though statistics say they'll never even so much as know, vaguely, a victim).

We need to see more criticisms of this kind. I hope the issue doesn't die. It seems Snowden is releasing data over time to keep it fresh in the news.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
The US is, for the time being, the only global power -- and as such it is the only truly sovereign state in existence. All others are dependent -- either as enemies or allies. And because most prefer to be allies, politicians -- Germany's included -- prefer to grin and bear it.

And because we will be the only superpower for a relatively short period, we could have, and should have, set a much better example as to how a superpower should behave and interact with the rest of the world and her citizens.

If you like this article, please share it over FB, etc. It needs to be a constant drumbeat!

I don't do FB, but I will forward the article to a crazy uncle who will then blast it to the ether better than FB ever could, all before even finishing the first couple of paragraphs. Hah!
 
Last edited:

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
A very good article but disturbing. There is no solution is the take home message. "It's legal" turns out to be the epithet of freedom. Oh you can do things but you will be carefully watched. Maybe not in all things but as technology improves yes. The response will be "its legal".

Well the partisans asked for this and now we're stuck with it.
 

tommo123

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2005
2,617
48
91
how would data protection work with US corps? i mean if the EU has one set of rules that say google has to follow and the US says something different - who wins? how do they decide? either way they get screwed right?

or can they split into autonomous sections that are US/EU only?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
how would data protection work with US corps? i mean if the EU has one set of rules that say google has to follow and the US says something different - who wins? how do they decide? either way they get screwed right?

or can they split into autonomous sections that are US/EU only?

The purpose seem to be to make our policies so expensive that our masters listen. They are impacted by little but money woes could be problematic.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
A regime is ruling in the United States today that acts in totalitarian ways when it comes to its claim to total control. Soft totalitarianism is still totalitarianism.

++

Uno
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,061
55,560
136
You guys realize that every European state was and is well aware that the US constantly spies on them, and that those states all spy on the US in turn, right?

I am a really big fan of Snowden providing more information as to the extent that the NSA is collecting data on American citizens. That was really important and really valuable. I sincerely hope that this disclosure is the last one of this type he attempts though, as it was stupid. Countries spy on each other, this is a shock to no one who was paying attention.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Would anyone care to provide some examples of how their freedom of expression has been curtailed recently? Has anyone here been unable to say or publish something that they wanted to say or publish? Has anyone here been forbidden from associating with other people/groups politically?

I'm just wondering where this "soft" totalitarian dictatorship is because I haven't experienced any aspect of it or even seen it.
 
Last edited:

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
I've been expecting this.

Nation spying on nation? Sure everyone expects that. That's something different in the minds of most people.

When this story first broke (PRISM etc.) most here were outraged that our emails, financial records etc were being captured and stored. The Obama admin tried to deny it and make clear it was only foreigners' info. Well, if I'm angry that the US govt is capturing all my data why wouldn't somebody in Europe be equally angry?

Killing in the back woods of Pakistan makes some foreigners angry with the USA, but snooping on peoples' personal and private info gets real personal real fast. IMO, it's going to make them far more angry with us.

We look worse than Russia.

I know if I were their position I would demand they we in Europe build our own networks to secure our own data since we now know that the USA cannot be trusted.

And I wouldn't be surprised if there were some effort at the UN level to address this.

I believe the over-the-top excesses of spying programs like PRISM and NUCLEON have opened a big can of worms.

Fern
 
Last edited:

Vic Vega

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2010
4,535
4
0
It's only soft because no one is resisting...

Watch people start resisting and it will become hard in a hurry.

The government has a monopoly on violence and they will use it on you.

By resisting I don't mean armed rebellion. I mean companies like Verizon telling the Fed to get bent. Now, watch the Fed send armed people to enforce their illegal spying.
 
Last edited:

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Would anyone care to provide some examples of how their freedom of expression has been curtailed recently? Has anyone here been unable to say or publish something that they wanted to say or publish? Has anyone here been forbidden from associating with other people/groups politically?

I'm just wondering where this "soft" totalitarian dictatorship is because I haven't experienced any aspect of it or even seen it.

Is someone confusing the 1st and 4th amendments?

Fern
 

Socio

Golden Member
May 19, 2002
1,732
2
81
I got a feeling the Nobel Foundation is feeling pretty stupid right about now.
 

lagokc

Senior member
Mar 27, 2013
808
1
41
It's only soft because no one is resisting...

Watch people start resisting and it will become hard in a hurry.

The government has a monopoly on violence and they will use it on you.

By resisting I don't mean armed rebellion. I mean companies like Verizon telling the Fed to get bent. Now, watch the Fed send armed people to enforce their illegal spying.

Encrypt EVERYTHING. Companies need to set up a LOT more TOR exit nodes so that TOR has decent bandwidth. Then all chat/email/voice-over-IP software needs to be open source, decentralized, encrypted end to end with no decryption in the middle for customer satisfaction purposes the way companies do things now. That's resistance.

Once that happens we'll see how the government responds.
 

Gintaras

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2000
1,892
1
71
And because we will be the only superpower for a relatively short period, we could have, and should have, set a much better example as to how a superpower should behave and interact with the rest of the world and her citizens.

you are a very sick Ape - just like apes in Germany in 1933....

Superpower? apes in Germany(and in France - Napoleon apes) thought they're superpower...
Didn't they? Now what? US apes could not learn ANYTHING from the History just because they're simply apes?

However, History doesn't lie...and no one can rewrite a History....

Stupid is that one, who can't learn from own mistakes or mistakes of others....
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
you are a very sick Ape - just like apes in Germany in 1933....

Superpower? apes in Germany(and in France - Napoleon apes) thought they're superpower...
Didn't they? Now what? US apes could not learn ANYTHING from the History just because they're simply apes?

However, History doesn't lie...and no one can rewrite a History....

Stupid is that one, who can't learn from own mistakes or mistakes of others....

You don't understand a word I wrote, do you? That is ok, English is obviously not your first language. But I can assure you, if you were able to read and understand my post YOU WOULD NOT have come to the same conclusion.

So no hard feelings, I understand it is simply a lack of comprehension. You should probably stick to USSR era issues of PRAVDA, having the government think for you is more your speed, so again, I understand and no hard feelings. :thumbsup:

edit: you do at least understand that the quoted portion of my post you take exception to was from the article right? I did not write the article.
 
Last edited:

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,911
10,243
136
I have a feeling the Germans know all too well the challenges facing the United States right now.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
You guys realize that every European state was and is well aware that the US constantly spies on them, and that those states all spy on the US in turn, right?

I am a really big fan of Snowden providing more information as to the extent that the NSA is collecting data on American citizens. That was really important and really valuable. I sincerely hope that this disclosure is the last one of this type he attempts though, as it was stupid. Countries spy on each other, this is a shock to no one who was paying attention.

This is qualitatively different. Governments spy on governments since they came into being. We're a nation that doesn't stop there but takes it to citizen level. The Great Eye. Egads 6 months ago I'd have thought Dave would be typing this.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
and the number #1 Obama/Democrat apologist says that there's nothing to see here, please move along.

Countries spy on each other, this is a shock to no one who was paying attention.
 

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
This is qualitatively different. Governments spy on governments since they came into being. We're a nation that doesn't stop there but takes it to citizen level. The Great Eye. Egads 6 months ago I'd have thought Dave would be typing this.

Gotta love kneejerk reactions of "hey, others are also doing it too!" when caught doing something bad. Two wrongs make a right, brudda.