The future of warfare?

IronWing

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Jul 20, 2001
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I figured I'd start a thread on the subject, mainly to keep it out of the Ukraine threads. Based on the latest from Ukraine and the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh, what do you see future conflicts looking like? Remember, there are no wrong answers, just stupid ones. ;)

My video game-earned expert opinion:
  • Tanks are passé.
  • Aircraft will be all remote, all the time.
  • Soldiers are going to be doing a lot more walking and crawling as anything on wheels is going to be a deathtrap.
  • Automatous drones are going to be hunting those soldiers.
  • Amphibious assaults are not happening anymore.
  • Surface ships are going to be stand-off only launch platforms and ships to protect the launch platforms.
  • Everyone is going to be spending a lot more money on remote targeting systems.
  • Those who can afford it are going to be spending a lot more money on high altitude precision delivery systems.
 
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Red Squirrel

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May 24, 2003
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I can see lot of remote stuff like you say, but also more cyber attacks. Not just traditional hacking, but actually blowing up key infrastructure. Data centres, power plants, roads, traffic control systems, financial systems, that kind of stuff. I guess some of that already happens but I can see more focus on it.

That said I think the idea of war is going to shift more towards politics. Trying to take over governments from the inside, penetrating the cabinet, buying out key corporations to gain control of certain things etc. China is technically already doing that. They own tons of lumber and mining companies here. They are basically taking our resources without having us even fight them.
 

IronWing

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Jul 20, 2001
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They own tons of lumber and mining companies here. They are basically taking our resources without having us even fight them.
That's funny, Canadian mining companies are taking over ours. Canada has far more loosy-goosy regulation on mining securities than the US, so mining companies like to list in Canada. Canadian mining companies can tell their investors stuff that would get them cuffed and stuffed in the US.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
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That's funny, Canadian mining companies are taking over ours. Canada has far more loosy-goosy regulation on mining securities than the US, so mining companies like to list in Canada. Canadian mining companies can tell their investors stuff that would get them cuffed and stuffed in the US.

i get an email or ad from them for investing sometimes... if their claims were true they would not be asking me for 10 grand or whatever. lol
 

BudAshes

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Jul 20, 2003
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GodisanAtheist

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Its all about Air Superiority. That element hasn't really changed since WW2, and I honestly doubt it ever will. Maybe the future will eventually see air to air drone dogfights and being a human in a fighter jet will be a losing proposition, but it will still be all about air superiority.

Once that air superiority is established, then your ground forces can do whatever they want, including ride around in armored transport, use tanks, etc.
 
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Captante

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Its all about Air Superiority. That element hasn't really changed since WW2, and I honestly doubt it ever will. Maybe the future will eventually see air to air drone dogfights and being a human in a fighter jet will be a losing proposition, but it will still be all about air superiority.

Once that air superiority is established, then your ground forces can do whatever they want, including ride around in armored transport, use tanks, etc.

No doubt about it... although the means of getting/keeping it have changed the essential strategy has not.

Human pilots physical limitations are already the primary limiting factor in fighter jet performance/handling while the biggest issue for drones is the relatively vulnerable comm-link to the remote pilot. (data latency is also a huge potential problem)

Unless/until somebody comes up with real life "inertial dampener's" (Star Trek ref) the need to remain conscious means drones will be able to far exceed maneuverability of manned aircraft.

Pilots being physically on-board fighter aircraft is something that I believe is on the verge of being obsolete.
 
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GodisanAtheist

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No doubt about it... although the means of getting/keeping it have changed the essential strategy has not.

Human pilots physical limitations are already the primary limiting factor in fighter jet performance/handling while the biggest issue for drones is the relatively vulnerable comm-link to the remote pilot. (data latency is also a huge potential problem)

Unless/until somebody comes up with real life "inertial dampener's" (Star Trek ref) the need to remain conscious means drones will be able to far exceed maneuverability of manned aircraft.

Pilots being physically on-board fighter aircraft is something that I believe is on the verge of being obsolete.

- Really its all a slow crawl to fully automated AI warfare. We might start out with a drone control ship/secure site in a sort of forward staging area, so transit time for communications is greatly reduced.

But at some point (and it has already happened in a few limited scenarios) the human will be removed from the shoot/no shoot decision making process and we'll have machines killing people without the authorization of another human (that was weird to type). No comm signal to jam, no delays between operator and drone, no human onboard to limit flight time and operational hours.

I wonder if drones will eventually lead us to a bizarre, dystopian, end of war scenario where a conflict can't even really get off the ground between the ability of governments to rapidly lock down citizen's ability to organize combined with eyes in the sky that can provide an almost godlike omnipresence and ability to "swat" problematic individuals/infrastructure/movements before they have a chance to really get off the ground.

I guess that leads us to cyberwarfare,, which is a whole 'nother beast entirely.
 

Charmonium

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May 15, 2015
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I think the OP is pretty much on track. But I would add 2 things.

Directed energy weapons are continuing to evolve apace but probably not ready for primetime. That they've gotten as far as they have is pretty amazing. They should be perfect for air defense however. A battery of these should be able soon-ish to take out even hypersonic "glide" warheads with ability to dodge incoming missiles.

Side note, when I was in HS, our physics class took a trip to Fort Monmouth in NJ where they had a group working on laser weapons. One of the presenters joked that laser power should be measured in Gillettes - how many steel razor blades they could cut through. Now such an idea seems quaint.

I do think it's possible that we'll see mobile air defense systems that really are portable unlike the patriot system which still needs to be setup in a defined location.

More advanced AIs that have true intelligence will be the endgame eventually. It will be like a game of Risk where success will be measured in how much offensive hardware you can aforde to lose.
 

pmv

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May 30, 2008
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Does seem as if MBTs are on the way out.

It's also more than a little disconcerting how much this conflict, like all recent ones, really, is looking like either an arms-manufacturer's product demonstration, or their beta test.
 

Exterous

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Jun 20, 2006
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Don't forget that Google maps and Waze will track your mechanized forces advance. "It just turned from yellow to red. Get ready boys!"

And cell phone intelligence/counter intelligence is a thing.

Drone IEDs will be a bitch
 
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sportage

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We live in such a global economy that war should be outlawed, or soon will be. Just look at how this war affects gas prices. The world economy can not tollerate this nor tollerate trigger happy dictators. In the future and for the sake of global financial stability, war will be outlawed, with any dictator who dare saber rattle to be kicked out of the club plain and simple.
The days of aggression and crazy warmongers will soon be over. Just think of the the movie NETWORK when Howard Beale is ushered into the boardroom with Arthur Jenson: You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Putin, and the world tribunal won't have it! Is that clear?

A time will come when should a country, say Russia, and a dictator, say Putin, have a problem with another country or another leader or whatever..... the issue will go before a world tribunal and subject to a vote.
For example, Question: should Russia be allowed to absorb Ukraine into Russian territory? If the vote is yes, then that is final with no bombs bullets or bloodshed. If the answer is no, then Putin heads back to the Kremlin with his tail between his legs. No war will be tolerated nor allowed. No disruption to the world order, world stability, or to the world economy will be tolerated. The tribunals decision is final.
 

gorobei

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Jan 7, 2007
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the battlefield is certainly likely to change for major power militaries, but in lower tech theaters the old rules will still apply.

air superiority and control of the skies will allow ground strikes on armored troops/support vehicles/air defense units, which will make infantry a sitting duck.



directed energy weapons on ground and air vehicles will likely change the opening script for any war.

if you can defeat missiles fast enough the economics become unfeasable. it currently takes 2 or 3 SAMs to take down a high altitude jet. but if that jet can use a laser to burn out the missile tail control surfaces or seeker head electronics, then you will need to launch 6 to 9 SAMs to overwhelm that laser so that at least one missile gets through. [i posted on this a couple of years ago]
to some degree human pilot dogfighting ended a while ago.

IR missiles like the sidewinder can now pull way more g-load than any human pilot. radar missiles have so much range the type of maneuvers to counter them stops being about what the pilot cant do and what the fly by wire system can do.

active radar and hybird seekers make modern aerial engagement more like a submarine war. the advantage going to the one who finds the other first and gets a track solution that lets them waypoint a missile to their blindspot just before the seeker goes active.

in the thread asking if the f-35 is necessary, everyone assumes a status quo of missiles and cannons with gen4 maneuverability always being viable and necessary. but with the upcoming air portable laser defense systems seemingly yielding an actual product in 5 to 10 years, air to air missiles could be rendered ineffective.(you could probably overwhelm the laser with numbers by launching in clusters. but instead of the now standard 2 or 3 aam dump per target, you might need to fire 10 or 12 to bring down one. assumming you could get close enough. no air force can wage an air defense depleting their missle stores at that rate).

eventually air superiority will come in the form of a largish stealthy cruiser plane the size of a B-1 equipped with a laser and ferrying a bunch of uavs with a sub-muntition load of missiles and bombs.
the onboard laser forces anyone using gen4.5 planes and weapons to commit to a full interception engagement since the cruiser can still deploy the uavs to bomb/agm range while itself never enters sam range. if any foe doesnt have the ability to deal with the uav with jamming or detection info relayed to sam batteries, then they lose control of their skies.

the only thing preventing this sort of paradigm shift is communications and jamming of the instructions to the uav. assuming the ai gets good enough at recognizing friendlies by optical/ir then radio waves are irrelevant.
the cost of shooting that many expensive missiles to take down so few targets isnt something many nations can afford. which brings up the real issue with manned vehicles.

a few air launched anti-ship missiles costing say $4M each can take down a catobar carrier costing billions. an agm/manpat costing $500k can kill a tank costing $20M, and so on. as long as the cheap weapon can eliminate the expensive vehicle(and crew) the cost benefit works out . in iraq afghanistan the US ran out of valuable enough targets to use the PGM on, so eventually it came down to drones attacking infantry riding in ordinary cars.

for modern militaries it then becomes required to deploy air defense units with the armies(aaa, missiles, ecm, and radar trucks), which forces the use of anti radiation missile aircraft. it then becomes a case of whack a mole as you try to sniff out real targets from decoys and radar emitters separated from missile launchers.

with directed energy defenses the cheap to operate laser can defeat the expensive missile. which leaves 2 options for missiles: overwhelm with numbers or go hypersonic. but if you have high alt superiority/stealth/airborne lasers, you can negate those 2 options.

so for first world militaries it will be business as usual once you get air superiority (which might take longer).



if apc/ifv mounted lasers can defeat agm/mpat then it is status quo.

the real change will be even smaller and cheaper drones with anti personnel weapons. if ground units are given quad copter type drones with mini clusterbomb-like weapons then infantry will have to keep up 24/7 portable laser defenses (something like boston dynamic's spot with a laser on its back) walking with the soldiers.

for those fearing AI killbots, that's a ways off.
the US had enough problems with human piloted drone strikes in afghanistan hitting the right targets (mostly due to pakistan intelligence hostile to the US feeding us bad intel and after action reports). for any democratic nation military using AI drones, they would have to be perfect given the risk of civilian deaths. we cant even get self driving cars working right now.
 
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zinfamous

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Jul 12, 2006
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I've always advocated for sword and shield and mace and chainmail whatnot fighting to return.

Want to end war permanently? I think modern people won't stand for that for very long. Too much information easily available about what that shit is like.
 

Red Squirrel

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May 24, 2003
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I've always advocated for sword and shield and mace and chainmail whatnot fighting to return.

Want to end war permanently? I think modern people won't stand for that for very long. Too much information easily available about what that shit is like.

And it should be the leaders that fight, not the civilians. Though the civilians can help if they want. So for example, if Putin wants to go to war with Ukraine, Putin himself should be getting in a tank and going. Don't drag the people into this.