The fusion of libertarianism and the Republican base.

nextJin

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2009
1,848
0
0
Forward by Senator Rand Paul:

Conservatives and libertarians have always agreed far more than they disagree. Ronald Reagan knew what he was talking about when he said that the "heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism."

National Review article:

At CPAC, the Future Looks Libertarian,” read a dispatch on Time magazine’s website. “CPAC: Rand Paul’s Big Moment,” proclaimed The Week magazine. Meanwhile, the New York Times headlined its story about the annual conservative political-action conference “GOP divisions fester at conservative retreat.”

George Will, a man who actually knows a thing or two about conservatism, responded to the NYT’s use of the word “fester” on ABC News’s This Week. “Festering: an infected wound, it’s awful. I guarantee you, if there were a liberal conclave comparable to this, and there were vigorous debates going on there, the New York Times’ headline would be ‘Healthy diversity flourishes at the liberal conclave.’”

Will went on to note that social conservatives and libertarian free-market conservatives in the GOP have been arguing “since the 1950s, when the National Review was founded on the idea of the fusion of the two. It has worked before with Ronald Reagan. It can work again.”

Will was right as far as he went, but I would go further. Fusionism was an idea hatched by Frank Meyer, a brilliant intellectual and editor at National Review. An ex-Communist Christian libertarian, Meyer argued that freedom was a prerequisite for virtue and therefore a virtuous society must be a free society. (If I force you to do the right thing against your will, you cannot claim to have acted virtuously.)

Philosophically, the idea took fire from all sides. But as a uniting principle, fusionism worked well. It provided a rationale for most libertarians and most social conservatives to fight side by side against Communism abroad and big government at home.

What often gets left out in discussions of the American Right is that fusionism isn’t merely an alliance, it is an alloy. Fusionism runs through the conservative heart. William F. Buckley, the founder of the conservative movement, often called himself a “libertarian journalist.” Asked about that in a 1993 interview, he told C-SPAN’s Brian Lamb that the question “Does this augment or diminish human liberty?” informed most of what he wrote.

Most pure libertarians and the tiny number of truly statist social conservatives live along the outer edge of the Venn diagram that is the American Right. Most self-identified conservatives reside in the vast overlapping terrain between the two sides.

Just look at where libertarianism has had its greatest impact: economics. There simply isn’t a conservative economics that is distinct from a libertarian one. Adam Smith, Friedrich Hayek, Milton Friedman, Henry Hazlitt, Ludwig von Mises, James M. Buchanan & Co. are gods of the libertarian and conservative pantheons alike. When Pat Buchanan wanted to move America towards protectionism and statism, he had to leave the party to do it.

Libertarian and conservative critiques of Obamacare, the stimulus, and other Democratic policies are indistinguishable from one another. On trade, taxes, property rights, energy, the environment, intellectual property, and other issues, I’d be hard-pressed to tell you the difference, if any, between the conservative and libertarian positions.

On the Constitution, there are some interesting debates, but both factions are united in rejecting a “living Constitution.” The debate on the right is over what the Constitution says, not what liberals think it should say.

When Jim DeMint resigned from the Senate, the pro-life libertarian journalist Timothy Carney wrote for the Washington Examiner, “For libertarians, Christian conservative pro-lifer Jim DeMint was the best thing to come through the Senate in decades.” DeMint had a 93 percent rating from the National Taxpayers Union and a perfect 100 percent from the libertarian Club for Growth.

Senator Rand Paul (R., Ky.), according to most media accounts, represents a new, younger, more libertarian approach. But at CPAC, Paul also announced that he would be introducing the “Life at Conception Act.” On gay marriage, Paul’s position is that it should be left to the states. And on immigration, Paul’s newfound support for a path to citizenship has more in common with George W. Bush’s compassionate conservatism than it does with doctrinaire libertarianism.

Libertarianism has a better brand name than conservatism these days, particularly among young people. Conservatives shouldn’t be freaking out about this any more than libertarians should start a victory dance. The agreements between the two sides remain far greater than the differences.

— Jonah Goldberg is the author of the new book The Tyranny of Clichés. You can write to him at JonahsColumn@aol.com, or via Twitter @JonahNRO. © 2013 Tribune Media Services, Inc

www.nationalreview.com/articles/343395/fusion-power-right-jonah-goldberg

This is just the beginning and I have been saying for over a year now. The GOP is dying, and has been for a long while.

The Liberty movement is just going to continue to take hold using the same tactics that evangelical Christians did in the 80's. It's only a matter of time.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
It's a nice, pretty picture... but until the GOP rejects the strident social conservative positions on cultural issues that are unpopular with a growing majority of the electorate, they will continue to lose elections.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
It's a nice, pretty picture... but until the GOP rejects the strident social conservative positions on cultural issues that are unpopular with a growing majority of the electorate, they will continue to lose elections.

They may be. It seems in today;s GOP being pro-immigration or pro-gay marriage gives you far less baggage than supporting new taxes or healthcare reform.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
They may be. It seems in today;s GOP being pro-immigration or pro-gay marriage gives you far less baggage than supporting new taxes or healthcare reform.

This is also where the country is headed demographically. Younger generations are much more fiscally conservative and socially liberal than the older generations... and this change isn't at all thwarted by the influx of Hispanic people, like some social conservatives hoped.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
This is also where the country is headed demographically. Younger generations are much more fiscally conservative and socially liberal than the older generations... and this change isn't at all thwarted by the influx of Hispanic people, like some social conservatives hoped.

I'd say that's true for the conservative parts of the country. I think a lot of young people today, especially because they've been through the recession and are going a whole decade working for peanuts, will have strong support for a social safety net closer to Europe than we are now.

But the battle will be over fiscal issues, and size of government, rather than moral/family issues.
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,452
2
0
I'd say that's true for the conservative parts of the country. I think a lot of young people today, especially because they've been through the recession and are going a whole decade working for peanuts, will have strong support for a social safety net closer to Europe than we are now.

But the battle will be over fiscal issues, and size of government, rather than moral/family issues.

On your last point: Don't be so sure, one is easier to pull into an emotional debate(moral/family) rather than a logical and fact based one(fiscal), so you'll still lose lots of voters on that front. . .
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
"I’d be hard-pressed to tell you the difference, if any, between the conservative and libertarian positions."

Until you factor in the religious right. The GOPs stance on social issues and inclusion of religous dogma is antithetical to TRUE libertarianism.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
On your last point: Don't be so sure, one is easier to pull into an emotional debate(moral/family) rather than a logical and fact based one(fiscal), so you'll still lose lots of voters on that front. . .

I think that segment of the GOP (social conservatives), if the GOP is successful in widening their base to include the fiscal/libertarian conservatives of the West and Northeast, will be about as big as the liberal base that wants universal healthcare. They matter, but they'll get in line when needed (i.e. nominating an electable candidate for national elections)

This is all in theory of course, GOP is still batshit insane as far as I'm concerned. Their last presidential primary was a joke
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
"I’d be hard-pressed to tell you the difference, if any, between the conservative and libertarian positions."

Until you factor in the religious right. The GOPs stance on social issues and inclusion of religous dogma is antithetical to TRUE libertarianism.

And foreign policy. The GOP are warmongers, libertarians support major military drawdown.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
"I’d be hard-pressed to tell you the difference, if any, between the conservative and libertarian positions."

Until you factor in the religious right. The GOPs stance on social issues and inclusion of religous dogma is antithetical to TRUE libertarianism.

Not really. Take the 2 biggest issues

Gay-marriage: A true libertarian would be against all government recognition of people's personal relationships. Whether they be gay or straight.

Abortion: Abortion is not an issue of liberty. But an issue of when life begins. This is why even pro-choicers will generally concede it should be illegal after 25ish weeks.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
What a crock of shit.

Anyone who actually would support what the current GOP represents -- much less the stooges their supporters elect as leaders -- is not a libertarian any more than leftists who claim to be libertarian are.

Rand Paul, like his father, is trying to have his cake and eat it too. And he will end up the same place his father did as a result.
 
Apr 27, 2012
10,086
58
86
One of the biggest problems with the gop are the social conservatives who have really hurt them. If the gop had real fiscal conservatism, a non-interventionist foreign policy and stayed out of peoples bedrooms then they would get Libertarian support and even get more supporters.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Rand Paul, like his father, is trying to have his cake and eat it too. And he will end up the same place his father did as a result.

Ron Paul was elected to Congress due to a (R) being beside his name on the ballot rather than for his stances. He was replaced in last year's election by another person that had a (R) beside his name on the ballot.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,459
6,689
126
We live in a culture of competition for survival. It breeds violence because competition is hate. It breeds egotism and self promotion over the welfare of others. We are mentally ill as a culture and our politics will reflect that so long as we do nothing to heal. Competition breeds insecurity and fear and a constant vigilant mental state and the result is a culture that wallows in a constant state of post traumatic stress disorder. We will experience endless examples of young men who can't make it taking up weapons and killing as many others as they can as pay back for making them feel like losers. A culture full of people who do not care about others is a culture in which nobody cares at all about you. And if you have never know what it is to be cared for, you will never really care about yourself. It is this reality and not our nice dreams that our politics will truly reflect, parties whose unconscious aim is self destruction.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
What a crock of shit.

Anyone who actually would support what the current GOP represents -- much less the stooges their supporters elect as leaders -- is not a libertarian any more than leftists who claim to be libertarian are.

Rand Paul, like his father, is trying to have his cake and eat it too. And he will end up the same place his father did as a result.

Please expound on the bottom half. It's a bit vague.

To the thread topic:

The closer the GOP comes to libertarian values the better IMO. But we must be watchful of politicians wearing clothes resembling libertarian ideas but act in direct contrast (ie tea party movement hijacked back in 2008).
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Ron Paul was elected to Congress due to a (R) being beside his name on the ballot rather than for his stances. He was replaced in last year's election by another person that had a (R) beside his name on the ballot.

Well, exactly. They claim to be libertarians, but they run as Republicans because they know it's the only way they will be elected.

If this means they influence the GOP towards libertarianism, then I'm all for it. But "fusion of libertarianism and the Republican base"? Please.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,412
9,606
136
Well, exactly. They claim to be libertarians, but they run as Republicans because they know it's the only way they will be elected.

If this means they influence the GOP towards libertarianism, then I'm all for it. But "fusion of libertarianism and the Republican base"? Please.

Socially liberal or neutral with a strong sense of limited government. In this case, fusion means kicking Republicans out of your bedroom, etc.

We're trying here, or flat out abandoning them.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Socially liberal or neutral with a strong sense of limited government. In this case, fusion means kicking Republicans out of your bedroom, etc.

We're trying here, or flat out abandoning them.

If "we" here means "libertarians", then you're the tail trying to wag the dog. People like the Pauls may get a fair bit of attention, but their supporters are not just a minority in the GOP, but a rather small one.

Despite the conspiracy theories surrounding the primaries last year, Ron Paul didn't win for a simple reason -- most Republicans don't find his views acceptable. I remember seeing several polls where he had the most negative ratings of all the candidates among GOP voters. Much of his support came from outside the party (I voted for him in my state primary, for example).
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,412
9,606
136
Ron Paul wasn't an American idol, it's true. Present a younger man with a clearer version of the same message, and Republicans will be hard pressed to continue their fight against us.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
Ron Paul wasn't an American idol, it's true. Present a younger man with a clearer version of the same message, and Republicans will be hard pressed to continue their fight against us.

The challenge, in the near term, will be making it through the primaries. Until/unless the candidate can effectively say "fuck it" to the evangelicals, he/she won't make it.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
91
I'm sorry, but I just don't see separating Republicans from White Privilege. Their social dictates and racist policies flow from that. They are not going to give up their easy, self-centered thinking for not-so-comforting objective, liberal ideals, so you're not going to separate them from social conservatism.
 
Last edited:

nextJin

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2009
1,848
0
0
Ron Paul wasn't an American idol, it's true. Present a younger man with a clearer version of the same message, and Republicans will be hard pressed to continue their fight against us.

I don't think it's a clearer vision, I believe it's a vision for a modern era platform. Their policies are not the same, from my perspective Rand takes the much more workable policies of his dads principles and focuses on bringing those to the Republicans and abandoning the old Republican policies.

Conservatism has a place among all Americans young and old. If anything what Ron did was to bring about the discussion and force the issue. This video pretty much sums up my feelings on what he has done, right or wrong on the issues he stayed the course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muf23Rc7HV8

Love him or hate him, Ron Paul has changed things on a level not many people have.

If "we" here means "libertarians", then you're the tail trying to wag the dog. People like the Pauls may get a fair bit of attention, but their supporters are not just a minority in the GOP, but a rather small one.

Despite the conspiracy theories surrounding the primaries last year, Ron Paul didn't win for a simple reason -- most Republicans don't find his views acceptable. I remember seeing several polls where he had the most negative ratings of all the candidates among GOP voters. Much of his support came from outside the party (I voted for him in my state primary, for example).

And look at Rand's prospective platform against his fathers. Rand knows exactly what you are talking about. He does not force the debate on inflation or the FED and has agreed to sanctions on foreign nations. He does not continue the discussion on the gold standard because he knows there is absolutely no point in bringing it up. We are in the here and now.

Rand understands that if the GOP just gives up on anti gay marriage, anti women, anti immigration, etc etc. while still standing on principles of conservatism then there is indeed room to grow and succeed.

The party is already moving in that direction, the old guard's voices are getting drown out by new members who are either affiliated with the tea party or liberty movement. Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marko Rubio and others are pushing these issues and frankly there is no denying their success and I believe the GOP leadership is fearful of that change but are going to have to accept reality.
 

nextJin

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2009
1,848
0
0
I'm sorry, but I just don't see separating Republicans from White Privilege. Their social dictates and racist policies flow from that. They are not going to give up their easy, self-centered thinking for not-so-comforting objective, liberal ideals, so you're not going to separate them from social conservatism.

Their going to have to if they want to survive. We have talked about this before with the demographics in the country and the average white male voter being drown out by the minorities.