The First Republican Debate: Three Of Them Don't Believe In Evolution!

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blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: zuljinAF
I will stand by my point though that any curriculum that forces a student to believe that we all evolved from a monkey is just as wrong as any curriculum that says we all appeared one day just as we are. Both sides need to be open minded and understand what they see to be true is not what everyone sees to be true.

Middle Ground fallacy
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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Originally posted by: zuljinAF
I will stand by my point though that any curriculum that forces a student to believe that we all evolved from a monkey is just as wrong as any curriculum that says we all appeared one day just as we are. Both sides need to be open minded and understand what they see to be true is not what everyone sees to be true.

No it's not. There is evidence for evolution and no evidence for creationism. No one needs to be open-minded about anything. In science class, we teach science, not science fiction. Feel free to have whatever beliefs you wish, just don't expect those beliefs to be taught to every child in public school. Our public school system is not a tool for religious indoctrination, rather it's a system for educating kids. You'd think that would be self-evident, but apparently you seem to be under the delusion that our tax dollars should go to teach religious viewpoints in our public schools. You couldn't be more wrong.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
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Sorry, but IMHO, saying "that we all evolved from a monkey" is stark proof that a person does not have a working knowledge of evolution, and really should not be debating on the subject.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
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Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: zuljinAF
I will stand by my point though that any curriculum that forces a student to believe that we all evolved from a monkey is just as wrong as any curriculum that says we all appeared one day just as we are. Both sides need to be open minded and understand what they see to be true is not what everyone sees to be true.

Middle Ground fallacy

Sorry for the tangent...

From the Middle Ground Fallacy link:
QUOTE
Examples of Middle Ground
Some people claim that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all good. Other people claim that God does not exist at all. Now, it seems reasonable to accept a position somewhere in the middle. So, it is likely that God exists, but that he is only very powerful, very knowing, and very good. That seems right to me.
(END QUOTE)

I don't know who wrote that web page, but the middle ground is often not the "correct" or best choice simply because not all viewpoints are equal. In the example cited, the two extremes are both based on faith, God does or doesn't exist. Middle ground there is fine since neither is provable.

But the middle ground on man's existence is not somewhere between creationism and evolution. On the creationism side, the only argument is belief. Evolution, as has been stated in this thread ad nauseum, is based on evidence. The middle ground between fantasy and facts is not a little of both. You cannot dilute fact with conjecture. My example:

Alice believes the tooth fairy put the dollar under her pillow because she has been told by other people that that is how the money got there. Alice's older brother David knows it was their mother that put the money there because he saw her do it while Alice was sleeping. Rover, Alice's dog, who doesn't know whether or not the tooth fairy exists, thinks that Alice's mother must have let the tooth fairy into the house to leave the money. Middle ground here is just as unacceptable as one of the extremes because anything other than the facts of what happened is simply incorrect.

End Tangent.

Last question: if a person doesn't accept evolution, but doesn't believe the earth is 6000 years old, then what other theory/guess/conjecture/belief exists to explain how man arrived in our current form? If a religious person believes god started the universe billions of years ago, and the earth is millions of years old...how did man develop? The earth cooled, plants sprouted, and then people started walking around? I'm serious, if not evolution from some lower form of life, then where/how?
 

zuljinAF

Member
Nov 17, 2003
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Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Sorry, but IMHO, saying "that we all evolved from a monkey" is stark proof that a person does not have a working knowledge of evolution, and really should not be debating on the subject.

Actually you kinda made my point as when i was in HS that is what was being taught for evolution and that is what i think doesn't need to be taught with out giving other possibilities. Most creationist don't say evolution doesn't exist they say that man didn't evolve from a lower life form, only the hard liners refuse to believe evolution takes place at all.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Creationism is falsifiable. It says the earth is about 6,000 years old.

No it doesn't.

There are some, but not mainstream Creationist, who claim to have developed a timeline from the Bible.

Personally, I've never known anyone who believes in Creationism to support any timeline. It's considered impossible to develop one from the Bible.
Fern
 

Enig101

Senior member
May 21, 2006
362
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0
Originally posted by: zuljinAF
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Sorry, but IMHO, saying "that we all evolved from a monkey" is stark proof that a person does not have a working knowledge of evolution, and really should not be debating on the subject.

Actually you kinda made my point as when i was in HS that is what was being taught for evolution and that is what i think doesn't need to be taught with out giving other possibilities. Most creationist don't say evolution doesn't exist they say that man didn't evolve from a lower life form, only the hard liners refuse to believe evolution takes place at all.
A science classroom is there to teach science. Evolution is a vast portion of science, supported by research from various biological, chemical and geological fields. You might as well not have a science class at all if you are going to leave it out.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
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Originally posted by: Fern

No it doesn't.

There are some, but not mainstream Creationist, who claim to have developed a timeline from the Bible.

Personally, I've never known anyone who believes in Creationism to support any timeline. It's considered impossible to develop one from the Bible.
Fern

You sure about that?

There is a significant segment of Creationists who think exactly that. You can say that I should have been more precise about what I meant by creationism... that's fair, but to say that creationism doesn't make similar claims about the age of the earth is simply wrong.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
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Originally posted by: zuljinAF

Actually you kinda made my point as when i was in HS that is what was being taught for evolution and that is what i think doesn't need to be taught with out giving other possibilities. Most creationist don't say evolution doesn't exist they say that man didn't evolve from a lower life form, only the hard liners refuse to believe evolution takes place at all.

Science classes frequently give out other possibilities when those possibilities are supported by evidence. Unfortunately that is not the case with creationism, therefore it doesn't belong in a science class.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Fern

No it doesn't.

There are some, but not mainstream Creationist, who claim to have developed a timeline from the Bible.

Personally, I've never known anyone who believes in Creationism to support any timeline. It's considered impossible to develop one from the Bible.
Fern

You sure about that?

Yeah. I had to go to a big mainstream Baptist Church private school (long story). This included daily "Bible" class.

My father is a regular church goer - Prebyterian. I've prolly been to a half dozern or more diferent churches on a regular basis.

Never seen it taught that the Bible provides a timeline. Too many gaps etc in geneology etc. Then there's the whole "how long is one of God's days?" thingy. Why would it be 24 Earth hours?

I have heard them place of doubt upon carbon dating, but that a different thing.

You original post, which I was responding also says that the Earth is considered 6,000 yrs old. If you'll read Wiki a little more carefully, you'll see that those who believe in this 6,000 yrs claim that's how old "man" is, not the earth.

I was surprised to see the large numbers of those who belived in the 6,000 year thingy. Does not reconcile with my 47 years of experience, so i discount it.

Also, seems to me I have some vague recollection of the "preacher" who claimed to have figured out the 6,000 year thingy from the Bible. I thought he was from a long time ago. I also thought he was the one who also claimed to have figured out when the "end of days" was. Of course that date came and went long ago. I.e., that guy is discredited even by the religious

Fern
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Fern

No it doesn't.

There are some, but not mainstream Creationist, who claim to have developed a timeline from the Bible.

Personally, I've never known anyone who believes in Creationism to support any timeline. It's considered impossible to develop one from the Bible.
Fern

You sure about that?

Also, seems to me I have some vague recollection of the "preacher" who claimed to have figured out the 6,000 year thingy from the Bible. I thought he was from a long time ago. I also thought he was the one who also claimed to have figured out when the "end of days" was. Of course that date came and went long ago. I.e., that guy is discredited even by the religious

Fern

I believe that was a scene from Inherit the Wind, which coincidentally is back on Broadway starring Briah Dennehy and Christopher Plummer. The pastor quotes from some biblical scholar who claimed to have used the bible to identify in years, months and days the exact moment of creation. Forget parting the Red Sea, now that's amazing.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
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quote:
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Sorry, but IMHO, saying "that we all evolved from a monkey" is stark proof that a person does not have a working knowledge of evolution, and really should not be debating on the subject.

Originally posted by:zuljinAF

quote:


Actually you kinda made my point as when i was in HS that is what was being taught for evolution and that is what i think doesn't need to be taught with out giving other possibilities. Most creationist don't say evolution doesn't exist they say that man didn't evolve from a lower life form, only the hard liners refuse to believe evolution takes place at all.

I seriously doubt that is what was presented in a science class. Humans and apes have a common ancestor. I have never heard anyone but fundies say "man evolved from a monkey" to explain evolution.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
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Originally posted by: Fern

Yeah. I had to go to a big mainstream Baptist Church private school (long story). This included daily "Bible" class.

My father is a regular church goer - Prebyterian. I've prolly been to a half dozern or more diferent churches on a regular basis.

Never seen it taught that the Bible provides a timeline. Too many gaps etc in geneology etc. Then there's the whole "how long is one of God's days?" thingy. Why would it be 24 Earth hours?

I have heard them place of doubt upon carbon dating, but that a different thing.

You original post, which I was responding also says that the Earth is considered 6,000 yrs old. If you'll read Wiki a little more carefully, you'll see that those who believe in this 6,000 yrs claim that's how old "man" is, not the earth.

I was surprised to see the large numbers of those who belived in the 6,000 year thingy. Does not reconcile with my 47 years of experience, so i discount it.

Also, seems to me I have some vague recollection of the "preacher" who claimed to have figured out the 6,000 year thingy from the Bible. I thought he was from a long time ago. I also thought he was the one who also claimed to have figured out when the "end of days" was. Of course that date came and went long ago. I.e., that guy is discredited even by the religious

Fern

Well, I guess that means that you don't hang out in the crazy circles which is probably a good thing.. haha.

One niggling point though, those who claim man is 6,000 years old (well, they argue between 6 and 10k) are those who believe in the literal interpretation of genesis (no metaphorical day lengths for these guys!). So while it is true that the earth would then be older then man, it would only be by about 5 days or so. :)

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Only fundamentalist Christians believe in young-earth creationism. The total percentage of fundies is around 8% of total Christians. So it's a vast minority, but if you consider the population of the U.S. and the percentage of the population who claim to be Christian (~85%), you're looking at: 300 million people x 85% = 255 million people x 8% = 20 million people.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Fern

Yeah. I had to go to a big mainstream Baptist Church private school (long story). This included daily "Bible" class.

My father is a regular church goer - Prebyterian. I've prolly been to a half dozern or more diferent churches on a regular basis.

Never seen it taught that the Bible provides a timeline. Too many gaps etc in geneology etc. Then there's the whole "how long is one of God's days?" thingy. Why would it be 24 Earth hours?

I have heard them place of doubt upon carbon dating, but that a different thing.

You original post, which I was responding also says that the Earth is considered 6,000 yrs old. If you'll read Wiki a little more carefully, you'll see that those who believe in this 6,000 yrs claim that's how old "man" is, not the earth.

I was surprised to see the large numbers of those who belived in the 6,000 year thingy. Does not reconcile with my 47 years of experience, so i discount it.

Also, seems to me I have some vague recollection of the "preacher" who claimed to have figured out the 6,000 year thingy from the Bible. I thought he was from a long time ago. I also thought he was the one who also claimed to have figured out when the "end of days" was. Of course that date came and went long ago. I.e., that guy is discredited even by the religious

Fern

Well, I guess that means that you don't hang out in the crazy circles which is probably a good thing.. haha.

One niggling point though, those who claim man is 6,000 years old (well, they argue between 6 and 10k) are those who believe in the literal interpretation of genesis (no metaphorical day lengths for these guys!). So while it is true that the earth would then be older then man, it would only be by about 5 days or so. :)

Well, those who believe in literal interpretation don't really need to believe in metaphor, since the sun didn't pop into existence until "day" 4.

 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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I would never vote for anyone who believes in Creationism or the Rapture.
It shows a lack of connection to reality.
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
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71
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Creationism is falsifiable. It says the earth is about 6,000 years old.

No it doesn't.

There are some, but not mainstream Creationist, who claim to have developed a timeline from the Bible.

Personally, I've never known anyone who believes in Creationism to support any timeline. It's considered impossible to develop one from the Bible.
Fern

I must say that I've not found that to be true in my experience. Alot of my friends are fairly devout Christians and some of them (perhaps half~) believe that the world is approximately 10,000 years old. Some of the more intelligent ones realize the impossibility of this, but those "hardliners" are a lot more common than you seem to think.
 

w3stfa11

Golden Member
Aug 8, 2006
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I'm amazed at the number of people who believe in what is essentially young-earth creationism, but don't identify themselves as such.

Originally posted by: Fern
Also, seems to me I have some vague recollection of the "preacher" who claimed to have figured out the 6,000 year thingy from the Bible. I thought he was from a long time ago. I also thought he was the one who also claimed to have figured out when the "end of days" was. Of course that date came and went long ago. I.e., that guy is discredited even by the religious

Fern

"First day of Creation began at nightfall preceding Sunday October 23, 4004 BC in the proleptic Julian calendar, near the autumnal equinox"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology
It was also mentioned in Inherit the Wind.
 

iamaelephant

Diamond Member
Jul 25, 2004
3,816
1
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Originally posted by: Fern
I was surprised to see the large numbers of those who belived in the 6,000 year thingy. Does not reconcile with my 47 years of experience, so i discount it.

Just like a good ol' Christian! Never let the facts get in the way of your preconceived beliefs!
 

zuljinAF

Member
Nov 17, 2003
43
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Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
quote:
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Sorry, but IMHO, saying "that we all evolved from a monkey" is stark proof that a person does not have a working knowledge of evolution, and really should not be debating on the subject.

Originally posted by:zuljinAF

quote:


Actually you kinda made my point as when i was in HS that is what was being taught for evolution and that is what i think doesn't need to be taught with out giving other possibilities. Most creationist don't say evolution doesn't exist they say that man didn't evolve from a lower life form, only the hard liners refuse to believe evolution takes place at all.

I seriously doubt that is what was presented in a science class. Humans and apes have a common ancestor. I have never heard anyone but fundies say "man evolved from a monkey" to explain evolution.

the science teacher I had was an extreme Fundi...

 

coomarlin

Senior member
Dec 19, 2000
796
0
71
I'm a scientist and I work with a few uber-religous guys. Their take on evolution is that creatures and things do evolve because god is ultimately responsible for evolution :roll:
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,047
18
81
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The fundamentalist Christian vote is a substantial constituency. And we see at least three republicans, that when placed on the horns of a dilemma, will do anything to pander for those votes and refuse to alienate any in that voting block.

Have you seen Brownback speak? He aint pandering. He's dead serious. Even scarier. Did you see the stem cell slideshow he presented in Congress? He's certifiable.

:thumbsup:
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
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Everyone that Thinks Evolution isnt Real needs to turn off the Computer they Are using right now. It is a product of Science... EVIL.... Science. Go back To Best Buy and Ask for a "Faith based computer"