The FBI Use Of Carnivore

Jimbo

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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So far I have done a search of this forum and I am surprised that no one has posted anything on this.
One more reason to use encryption for E-Mail has just been handed to us courtesy of the FBI.
Now I am not using the Internet or E-Mail to break the law, and I am sure that most of you are not either. I also do not want to live with this either.
Theoretically, the FBI can use the ?Carnivore? box to eavesdrop on ALL internet communications from banking, E-Mail and web surfing.
Read about it here:

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2601502,00.html

This should worry you just a little.

Jimbo
 

Mister T

Diamond Member
Feb 25, 2000
3,439
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changes in technology will always beat changes in the law.
Time to bust out 128 bit encrytion for e-mails.

Then the FBI with all its supercomputers in the world will be
at our mercy.

 

saym

Member
Oct 10, 1999
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The only difference from wiretapping is that the FBI is managing ?Carnivore? not the ISP. That would be one of my concerns. All our telephone/Cellular calls can be monitored and we do banking via that medium also. Just my 2 cents...
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
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Evil. Pure evil. Give it a few years and and more constitutional violations of this country's citizens rights and you'll be able to find me in the hills of Montana watching out for black helicopters... :|
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I saw this earlier today and decided I'm going to start encrypting my Email ASAP. I really don't have anything I need to protect/hide but IMO it's none of the FBI's business who I'm talking to and what I'm saying. If I commit a federal crime that's another story but just because I happen to use the same ISP as some criminal is no reason to have the FBI sifting through my Email. The question is what to use. I've heard of PGP but don't have any experience using it. Is it good or is there a better option??

Rob
 

Sillyputty

Member
Jul 12, 2000
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Time to start e-mailing gibberish hoax reports of UFOs and Pamela Anderson's alien beast-implants. Might as well toss in "Janet Reno is a Man in Drag" mid-wing rhetoric, too.
 

Sillyputty

Member
Jul 12, 2000
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True, true, Damo. The truth is that she's J Edgar's illegitimate son. I guess that kind of thing runs in their family :p.
 

SilentBoB

Golden Member
Nov 13, 1999
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<<UFOs and Pamela Anderson's alien beast-implants>>
<<Janet Reno is a Man in Drag>>
<<J Edgar's illegitimate son>>

LOL, now that you guys have mentioned the key phrases the &quot;Carnivore&quot; is looking for, I bet the FBI are reading this thread right now.
Trust no one...
 

DaveCSparty

Senior member
May 14, 2000
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People are saying that if you are not doing anything wrong then you don't have anything to worry about. I think that is bullshit. We are slowly giving all of our rights away, one by one. People forgot what this country is all about.

Sparty...
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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Because the Internet has no borders isnt the FBI then braking international law by spying on other countries as well. Even though they are just connected to a backbone in the US doesnt mean that information from lets say France to Japan is not going through the US backbone. So FBI is spying on other countries as well.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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As I understand the situation, a federal judge must give the FBI authority to intercept email. I think we should give them time to prove whether they are using their new tool to hurt us or help us. Complaints about civil liberties violations are too early. Law enforcement needs these tools to combat the el beanos and worse, much worse, of the world. They are so strapped for resources, I doubt they are going to be checking your email for an unauthorized copyright violation of Pam and Tommy. :p The FBI has made its share of mistakes, but they've also done a lot of good.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
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106
This is an extremely dangerous next step. Basically, unlike with wiretaps, the FBI is in sole control of the monitoring. We're supposed to just 'trust them' to do the right thing and not monitor stuff they're not supposed to.... riiiiiiiiight. That's like trusting a pedophile to be alone with a group of kids at summercamp. We ALL know the track record of institutions like the FBI or governments when it comes to monitoring people they're not supposed to (going all the way back to Hoover monitoring people he deemed to be 'bad' or dangerous, or to the FBI monitoring any minority or socialist groups in the 60's and 70's).

With a wiretap, a judge has to grant a warrant for them to monitor the communications of a person whom they have reason to believe is involved in a specific crime. With carnivore, they can get a warrant to monitor one supposed criminal, and instantly gain access to ALL communications going through that ISP. Since nobody knows exactly what carnivore does, we don't even know if it's limited to email - it could be anything.

The argument that if you have nothing to hide you don't have to worry is crap. I don't have anything illegal happening in my living room either, but that doesn't mean the FBI should be able to put a camera in there. :|

I've been using PGP for 5 years, and this is just a confirmation of why that's a good thing.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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<< The argument that if you have nothing to hide you don't have to worry is crap. I don't have anything illegal happening in my living room either, but that doesn't mean the FBI should be able to put a camera in there. >>



So true
 

DataFly

Senior member
Mar 12, 2000
968
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What I don't understand is why the FBI would need Carnivore on all ISP's all the time if they will only be using it to gain access to potential terrorists' or criminals' email once in a while. It would be a lot cheaper if they only installed it when needed, assuming the hardware isn't too complex. Looks fishy to me...
 

Jimbo

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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I may seem paranoid but I agree with tagej, the FBI has a horrible record of monitoring those that pose no real threat (can you say ?John Lennon? boys ?n girls). In addition they have an EVEN worse record of sloppy investigation techniques and leaking inaccurate and patently FALSE information to the press to justify the evil they do.
Some examples over the last few years:
1. Richard Jewell ? This guy actually saved several lives at the 1996 Olympics by reporting a suspicious package that turned out to contain a bomb. The FBI, due to nothing other than sheer incompetence and laziness, tries to frame him by lying to him that they are making a training video and then the FBI turns around and attempts to sell it as a confession.
2. Randy Weaver -- The Feds shoot his 14 year old son in the back and his wife (while holding their baby ? I am sure she was a real threat) all based on charges that the FBI had cooked up by using a sting operation that involved FBI informants getting him to buy them mail order firearms (that he initially refused to do until they worked on him for several weeks). Not one of the Federal agents is prosecuted (or even investigated) for murder.
3. Branch Dividians -- (David Koresh and Co.) Were into some seriously weird stuff that most of us would have no part of. What does the government do? Being that David K. had a habit of jogging (unarmed) into town every few days (he could have been picked up without incident) where he would have made an EASY arrest target. What does the government do? They take a paranoid extremist religious sect (that is already preaching that the government is after them- humm? maybe they were on to something) and storm the compound in board daylight and then find it a total mystery when they shoot back. During the standoff that Uber Authoritarian herself, Janet Reno, goes on TV and lies by stating that they also have reports of child abuse (we?re doing it for the children). When cornered several months later about that report she actually admits that was ?bad? information. Oh well, just a bunch of Religious extremist (by the way, almost all of those children died) who will miss them?
4. Wen Ho Lee ? (of Los Alamos fame) The Cox Report painted this guy as the worst thing to come down the pike since the Rosenbergs. Upon further research, harsher assessments came from (Chris) Cox's own Republican Party. Former deputy assistant Secretary of the Army, Dr. James Prather, after studying the report observed, &quot;You've been had, Chris. Now just admit it.&quot; Dr. Lee is now cooling his heels in solitary confinement 23 hours a day. He does get a weekly one-hour visit from his family. Federal Judge, Jude Wanniski, advisor to former Republican vice presidential candidate Jack Kemp, who authorized Prather's study, added, &quot;We know that Bill Richardson is ready to destroy the life of the Chinese American computer scientist Wen Ho Lee and several Los Alamos scientists.&quot; Wanniski went on, &quot;If you have the right stuff, Chris, you would come clean now before your nose gets any longer, and tell Bill Richardson he does not have to put Wen Ho Lee in the slammer after all.&quot;
It also comes to light that the ?classified? data he is accused of mishandling (he is not even any longer accused of having given ANYTHING to the Chinese) was actually NOT classified at the time it was on his computer! It was only classified LATER. It remained on an unsecured area of his computer because NO ONE told him the data?s classification had been changed.

I could go on and on but those are the four that I know most of you have heard of.
I am sure that this post alone will get the ?carnivore? looking my way.


Jimbo
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Jimbo:

I'd have to agree with every instance you listed of FBI misconduct, particularly the Branch Davidian Massacre. Having said that, I'd say the FBI, on a day to day basis, is the best law enforcement agency in the world. I cannot think of another group of people that have been so instrumental in preserving our liberty, unless it is the media. The days of J. Edgar Hoover are over, and constant oversight of the agency is a reality they have to live with. You cannot paint the FBI with such a broad brush. I'm a political moderate, and liberal on civil rights, but I don't see an FBI agent behind every bush. I guess that's how good they are? :p

This is media politics again. The media are jerking your chains to keep you interested and buying Wheaties and Fords.
 

Jimbo

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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No, I don't see them behind every bush either. I see them as the DMV with guns; essentially armed bureaucrats.
I also agree that the popular media is yanking us around daily in many areas.
I digress with you on the statement: ?I cannot think of another group of people that have been so instrumental in preserving our liberty, unless it is the media.?
 

The Wildcard

Platinum Member
Oct 31, 1999
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For me, when i think about the FBI, i think about the incredible skill it took to track down and capture the criminals behind both the World Trade Bombing and the Oklahoma City bombing. They bascially put small bits and pieces of metal together to find the serial number of the bombing vehicle responsible. So my hats off.
 

Jimbo

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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I agree that the FBI is capable of some fantastic investigative successes. If they were that good all of the time this thread would not exist. Those are two high-profile cases, of national importance, that they did do well on. I am glad they would not screw those up as bad as the others. If investigative efficiency were the only criteria here then lets give some high marks to the NKVD, SAVAK and The STAZI while we are at it.
Still, do you want them going through all of your Internet activities?
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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What ticks me the most is that the bloody americans want to exclude the FBI, CIA and the US military from the international war crime jury pact. Meaning the US military can invade some Asian country for no reason at all and kill them all and not be held responsible. Meaning the CIA can help some rebel to be a leader of a country like they did in Cuba without beeing held responsible.

Thank god the EU doesnt even want to listen to that request.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
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time to go live in the woods on solar power.. with a small alcohol powered generator to keep a bank of 24 auto batteries charged.... custom made dc/ac converter.. Mmmm.... Next to a fast-running creek, of course.. hot-waterheater element based distiller.. You know... If gasoline ever got much above 2 dollars a gallon, it'd almost be cheaper to make/run alcohol... you can make alcohol out of just about anything.. ;) ... Guess your supposed to have a permit to do that, though. ;) Not to mention your engines would perform better, burn cleaner, and last longer... (ever seen the oil out of an engine that's been running .. anything other than gasoline? (natural gas, propane, alcohol:)).. Clean. Gasoline is a crap fuel. :Q



Hmm.... What were we talking about again? :)
 

Redneck

Senior member
May 20, 2000
386
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Jimbo, i think that the BATF was to some extent involved in #2 or #3, if i remember correctly. Also, last I had heard the Marines still aren't allowing FBI snipers to train with them because of what happened with the Weavers. That alone shows how bad the FBI screwed up. I don't see how they could let a screwup like Spicoli(sp?) into the FBI in the first place anyway, let alone being a sniper. He should be rotting in prison as far as i'm concerned.