The environuts are at it again

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: Slick5150
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Slick5150
You know, rather than just calling them environuts, you might want to take the time to actually read and think about that article. I'm certainly not suggesting that local growing of flowers is going to solve all of the problems, but it does seem rather wasteful to import flowers all the way from Africa rather than growing them closer to home where they won't have to be shipped as far. But, as with most things, it all comes down to the mighty dollar for the most part.

If it was wasteful to import they wouldnt do it.

Waste, in environmental sense, is not determined by cost alone, but by the effect on the environment, which is the point of the argument being made in the OP's article. Its obviously cheaper for Walmart to make cheap crap in China and ship it here, but the overall effect on the environment of doing that is much worse than if they were to build the same item in Oklahoma.

The same holds true here. I'm sure it is cheaper for the florists in England to buy flowers from Africa, but there is a cost to the environment of shipping them all there that wouldn't have to be paid if they bought locally.

So again, their argument is valid, its just a question of where you put YOUR value. Is it strictly in dollars and cents, or do you look at the associated costs to the environment?


Why does everyone single out Wal-mart. All the big box stores import from over seas. Oh yeah, because they are not unionized. If they were I bet you a dollar you would not see complaints about where they buy their products.



Lets talk flowers.

Say we grow roses or whatnot locally. How much area would be consumed to support them in areas where growing conditions are not ideal? How much heating, cooling, water, and other, would have to be allocated? All that dollar cost adds up and that dollar costs have impact on the environment as well.

Look at who is behind the last round of attacks on Walmart. The union who represents grociers around the country. You see Walmart is stepping into their sacred territory so it is time to fire up the fools to do their bidding.

Fools of course being the people who buy into the attack ads and go after walmart for being walmart.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
In other news today- we are pleased to report the growing agribusiness of poor countries in Africa...........

Fern
 

Slick5150

Diamond Member
Nov 10, 2001
8,760
3
81
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: Slick5150
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Slick5150
You know, rather than just calling them environuts, you might want to take the time to actually read and think about that article. I'm certainly not suggesting that local growing of flowers is going to solve all of the problems, but it does seem rather wasteful to import flowers all the way from Africa rather than growing them closer to home where they won't have to be shipped as far. But, as with most things, it all comes down to the mighty dollar for the most part.

If it was wasteful to import they wouldnt do it.

Waste, in environmental sense, is not determined by cost alone, but by the effect on the environment, which is the point of the argument being made in the OP's article. Its obviously cheaper for Walmart to make cheap crap in China and ship it here, but the overall effect on the environment of doing that is much worse than if they were to build the same item in Oklahoma.

The same holds true here. I'm sure it is cheaper for the florists in England to buy flowers from Africa, but there is a cost to the environment of shipping them all there that wouldn't have to be paid if they bought locally.

So again, their argument is valid, its just a question of where you put YOUR value. Is it strictly in dollars and cents, or do you look at the associated costs to the environment?


Why does everyone single out Wal-mart. All the big box stores import from over seas. Oh yeah, because they are not unionized. If they were I bet you a dollar you would not see complaints about where they buy their products.



Lets talk flowers.

Say we grow roses or whatnot locally. How much area would be consumed to support them in areas where growing conditions are not ideal? How much heating, cooling, water, and other, would have to be allocated? All that dollar cost adds up and that dollar costs have impact on the environment as well.

Wal-Mart is merely an example, but a good one considering they are the largest and certainly the biggest user of the asian markets that I know of anyways.

As for your flowers, you actually have it backwards. The flowers we're talking about are natively grown in areas in northern europe, but because of dirt cheap land in Africa, they can still grow them cheaper there even after the added costs of cooling, supplying water, etc... Cheap land + cheap labor. So, the argument in the OP's article is still completely valid, but again, it comes down to the values you place on the bottom line price of a good vs. the other costs involved in making them, including the environmental costs. I'm not advocating one position over another, I'm simply arguing the fact that there is a legitimate point here that I don't think dismissing as "environutics" is appropriate.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,398
6,077
126
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People who feel like they are the worst in the world, everybody here, are not the kind of people who worry about the mileage on flowers or anything else really. Their concerns are only with keeping all memory of their past in regards to these feelings deeply repressed. Things like this, are labeled frivolous because, in comparison to other fears they are, and because any fear at all, any notion that one or one's actions might be responsible for even some tiny amount of negativity in the world must be powerfully crushed because any and really all feeling can awaken the sleeping truth. There is safety only in being a Zombie. And of course, the notion of Zombies has arisen from the fact that that is what we are.

To be alive is to feel. Please please don't make me feel.

does it take a lot of practice to learn to talk that way? Let me try.

In the Great cosmic sink that is life. We are all insignificant droplets of water, that have endured an augurous journey through the Pvc portals.
Together we press against the oppressive washers that seek to restrain us in our conduits.
Valves of tyranny deny us what is our destiny, until at last we overcome and are deposited singularly into the wash basin in sheer ecstasy as we squeeze past the washer guardians.
Only to find that we are sucked down the drain of despair, only to begin our journey again
.


Naw, I think your better at it. I would have to practice:(

It isn't practice you lack, it's understanding. You are like a Cargo Cult in New Guinea attempting to fly by creating a model of a plane from sticks and leaves. Know that I feel as intimidated by your remarks as much as the aircraft industry feels economically threatened.
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
So in other words hundreds of years of open markets have been wrong?

What you are delving into are the costs people put onto things that cant be nailed down. Like how much does it cost for a coal plant to spew Co2 into our atmosphere?
Ask one person he says 1 buck per pound. Another guy says 500 bucks. Who is right, who is wrong? Again that depends on who you ask.

I prefer thinking along the lines of something I can say, yes this costs 5 dollars. Not, well it may be 5 bucks if the sun shines today, but if I see a cloud I feel like it might cost 12 bucks.

And if you arent delving into that I apologize. But markets correct themselves when allowed to, they always do. If it is cheaper today to import from Africa but 5 years down the line the costs outweight the benefits of buying local they will change their buying pattern.

What are markets correcting themselves from? I would guess a value that we did not know how to price.
And do the markets correct themselves retroactivly?
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People who feel like they are the worst in the world, everybody here, are not the kind of people who worry about the mileage on flowers or anything else really. Their concerns are only with keeping all memory of their past in regards to these feelings deeply repressed. Things like this, are labeled frivolous because, in comparison to other fears they are, and because any fear at all, any notion that one or one's actions might be responsible for even some tiny amount of negativity in the world must be powerfully crushed because any and really all feeling can awaken the sleeping truth. There is safety only in being a Zombie. And of course, the notion of Zombies has arisen from the fact that that is what we are.

To be alive is to feel. Please please don't make me feel.

does it take a lot of practice to learn to talk that way? Let me try.

In the Great cosmic sink that is life. We are all insignificant droplets of water, that have endured an augurous journey through the Pvc portals.
Together we press against the oppressive washers that seek to restrain us in our conduits.
Valves of tyranny deny us what is our destiny, until at last we overcome and are deposited singularly into the wash basin in sheer ecstasy as we squeeze past the washer guardians.
Only to find that we are sucked down the drain of despair, only to begin our journey again
.


Naw, I think your better at it. I would have to practice:(

It isn't practice you lack, it's understanding. You are like a Cargo Cult in New Guinea attempting to fly by creating a model of a plane from sticks and leaves. Know that I feel as intimidated by your remarks as much as the aircraft industry feels economically threatened.


translation: up yours.:laugh:
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,446
20,451
146
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
This message brought to you by the people who warned you that movie theater popcorn will KILL you. :thumbsup:
Of course it can. A pretzel almost took out POTUS. ;)


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,398
6,077
126
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People who feel like they are the worst in the world, everybody here, are not the kind of people who worry about the mileage on flowers or anything else really. Their concerns are only with keeping all memory of their past in regards to these feelings deeply repressed. Things like this, are labeled frivolous because, in comparison to other fears they are, and because any fear at all, any notion that one or one's actions might be responsible for even some tiny amount of negativity in the world must be powerfully crushed because any and really all feeling can awaken the sleeping truth. There is safety only in being a Zombie. And of course, the notion of Zombies has arisen from the fact that that is what we are.

To be alive is to feel. Please please don't make me feel.

does it take a lot of practice to learn to talk that way? Let me try.

In the Great cosmic sink that is life. We are all insignificant droplets of water, that have endured an augurous journey through the Pvc portals.
Together we press against the oppressive washers that seek to restrain us in our conduits.
Valves of tyranny deny us what is our destiny, until at last we overcome and are deposited singularly into the wash basin in sheer ecstasy as we squeeze past the washer guardians.
Only to find that we are sucked down the drain of despair, only to begin our journey again
.


Naw, I think your better at it. I would have to practice:(

It isn't practice you lack, it's understanding. You are like a Cargo Cult in New Guinea attempting to fly by creating a model of a plane from sticks and leaves. Know that I feel as intimidated by your remarks as much as the aircraft industry feels economically threatened.


translation: up yours.:laugh:

Doubtlessly so when you are doing the translating. You might just as well have taken it as advise, however, that you need to set aside your reactiveness and think more about what I say. You may try to pretend what I say is a joke, but I KNOW better. There is noting to be gained by spitting into the wind.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: daniel49
Topic Title: The environuts are at it again

yawn:moon:

...Environmentalists warned that "flower miles" could have serious implications on climate change in terms of carbon dioxide emissions from aeroplanes.....
As long as you raised the subject, anti-environmental nutcases like you may want to educate yourselves about a real danger from cut flowers containing significant residue from pesticides.
Cut-flower industry relies on heavy pesticide use

The Associated Press
Published: February 11, 2007

BOGOTA, Colombia: It's probably the last thing most people think about when buying roses.

But by the time the velvety, vibrant-colored flowers reach a Valentine's Day buyer, they will have been sprayed, rinsed and dipped in a battery of potentially lethal chemicals.

Most of the toxic assault takes place in the waterlogged savannah surrounding the capital of Colombia, which has the world's second-largest cut-flower industry after the Netherlands, producing 62 percent of all flowers sold in the United States.

With 110,000 employees ? many of them single mothers ? and annual exports of US$1 billion (?771 million), the industry provides an important alternative to growing coca, source crop of the Andean nation's better known illegal export: cocaine.

But these economic gains come at a cost to workers' health and Colombia's environment, according to consumer advocates who complain of an over-reliance on chemical pesticides.
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Colombia's flower exporters association responded by launching Florverde, which has certified 86 of its 200 members for taking steps to improve worker safety and welfare. Florverde says its members have reduced pesticide use by 38 percent since 1998, to an average of 97 kilograms (213 pounds) of active ingredient per hectare (2.4 acres) per year.

"Every day we're making more progress," said Florverde director Juan Carlos Isaza. "The value of Florverde is that these best practices have now been standardized and are being adopted by the industry."

Nevertheless, 36 percent of the toxic chemicals applied by Florverde farms in 2005 were listed as "extremely" or "highly" toxic by the World Health Organization, Isaza acknowledged.

And unlike in the United States, Colombia has no government regulations about pesticide use inside greenhouses, where toxicity levels tend to rise.

Even with more stringent guidelines, accidents happen.

On Nov. 25, 2003, some 200 workers at Flores Aposentos were hospitalized after fainting and developing sores inside their mouths. Authorities determined this mass poisoning could have been caused by any number of pesticide-handling violations, but fined the company just US$5,770 (?4,670).

Government oversight is relatively strict in the United States ? in California, each flower farm's pesticide use is available for review on the Internet. But there are no reliable statistics about chemicals used by Colombia's 600-plus flower farms, in part because only a third belong to Asocolflores, the exporters' association, which does keep good records.

The U.S. requires imported flowers to be bug-free, although not necessarily void of chemical residues, as required for edible fruits and vegetables. But the reliable highland tropical climate that drew U.S. flower growers to Colombia and Ecuador is a haven for pests.

This encourages growers to apply a wide range of fertilizers, pesticides and fungicides, some of which have been linked to elevated rates of cancer and neurological disorders and other problems.

Causal links between these chemicals and individual illnesses are hard to prove because chronic pesticide exposure has not been studied in enough detail.

But researchers have found some disturbing data: The Harvard School of Public Health examined 72 children ages 7-8 in a flower-growing region of Ecuador whose mothers were exposed to pesticides during pregnancy and found they had developmental delays of up to four years on aptitude tests.

"Every time we look, we're finding out these pesticides are more dangerous than we ever thought before and more toxic at lower levels," said Philippe Grandjean, who led the Harvard study published last year.

Carmen Orjuela began suffering dizzy spells and repeated falls in 1997, while working at a flower farm outside Bogota. During the peak season before Valentine's Day, she said her employer forced workers to enter greenhouses only a half-hour after they had been fumigated.

"Those who refused were told they could leave ? that 20 people were outside waiting to take their job," said Orjuela, who quit in 2004.

Orjuela's employer, Flores de la Sabana, denied ever disregarding manufacturer-recommended re-entry times, but a toxicology study from Colombia's National University obtained by The Associated Press confirmed that Orjuela's illness was "directly related to an important exposure to potentially toxic chemical substances." A government arbiter finally ordered the company to pay her a pension equal to the US$200 (?155) monthly minimum wage earned by most workers.

Such problems apparently aren't isolated: a survey of 84 farms between 2000 and 2002, partly financed by Asocolflores, found only 16.7 percent respected Florverde's recommendation that workers wait 24 hours before re-entering greenhouses sprayed with the most toxic of pesticides.

Producers say they would love to go organic, especially given the high costs of pesticides. But their risks include infestations and stiff competition from emerging flower growers in Africa and China.

"The biggest hurdle to going organic is that once you're there you have to be prepared to lose your crop," said John Amaya, president of the Miami-based flower unit of Dole Food Co., Colombia's largest flower grower.

Still, U.S. consumers bought US$16 million (?12 million) in organic flowers in 2005, and demand is growing by 50 percent a year, according to the Organic Trade Association.

That growth has been helped by "VeriFlora," a certification and labeling program launched by U.S. consumers, growers and retailers including Whole Foods Market Inc. Some 32 farms in Colombia and Ecuador have earned the VeriFlora label, which requires a transition to organic production and, unlike the industry-backed Florverde, bans more than 100 chemicals outright.

"Unfortunately, existing programs have deficiencies that would not fly in the American marketplace," said Linda Brown, vice president of Scientific Certification Systems, which runs the VeriFlora program.

Gerald Prolman, CEO of San Francisco-based Organic Bouquet.com, counts on VeriFlora-certified growers for much of his supply.

"If producers want to distinguish their flowers from the glut of cheap, chemically produced ones in the world right now they need to ensure that their farms have fully incorporated socially and environmentally responsible practices that consumers demand and are willing to pay more for," he said.
There are standards for pesticide residue on imported foods, but there are none for imported non-food plants such as commercial flowers.

So go ahead. Give your mom, your wife or your GF a bunch of roses for Valentine's Day, and as she's taking a big whiff, remember, to paraphrase Shakespear...

A rose by any other name would smell as TOXIC!
rose.gif
:(
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
People who feel like they are the worst in the world, everybody here, are not the kind of people who worry about the mileage on flowers or anything else really. Their concerns are only with keeping all memory of their past in regards to these feelings deeply repressed. Things like this, are labeled frivolous because, in comparison to other fears they are, and because any fear at all, any notion that one or one's actions might be responsible for even some tiny amount of negativity in the world must be powerfully crushed because any and really all feeling can awaken the sleeping truth. There is safety only in being a Zombie. And of course, the notion of Zombies has arisen from the fact that that is what we are.

To be alive is to feel. Please please don't make me feel.

does it take a lot of practice to learn to talk that way? Let me try.

In the Great cosmic sink that is life. We are all insignificant droplets of water, that have endured an augurous journey through the Pvc portals.
Together we press against the oppressive washers that seek to restrain us in our conduits.
Valves of tyranny deny us what is our destiny, until at last we overcome and are deposited singularly into the wash basin in sheer ecstasy as we squeeze past the washer guardians.
Only to find that we are sucked down the drain of despair, only to begin our journey again
.


Naw, I think your better at it. I would have to practice:(

It isn't practice you lack, it's understanding. You are like a Cargo Cult in New Guinea attempting to fly by creating a model of a plane from sticks and leaves. Know that I feel as intimidated by your remarks as much as the aircraft industry feels economically threatened.


translation: up yours.:laugh:

Doubtlessly so when you are doing the translating. You might just as well have taken it as advise, however, that you need to set aside your reactiveness and think more about what I say. You may try to pretend what I say is a joke, but I KNOW better. There is noting to be gained by spitting into the wind.

Neither should one travail in birth to bring forth the proverbial bovine.
When one sounds the trumpet in clarity, the troop advances in unison upon the common adversary.