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The end of the U.S. government

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
I rarely see this discussed, as most people seem to be under the impression that the U.S. government will continue to exist long after they are dead. But the U.S. government, like all governments in history will eventually come to an end. So the questions are: when will it end? How will it end?

The most common answer I've heard so far is illegal immigration. A lot of people believe that the U.S. government will simply be transformed into some other foreign government when illegal immigrants become the majority of the population and vote themselves into office.

My prediction is that the U.S. government will eventually go bankrupt and the Federal Reserve will collapse. The reason is very simple: politicians do not care about the government's debt. They are simply not liable for it and they will be out of office and or dead long before the chickens come home to roost.

Imagine a system in which someone owns something that is producing income for them. For instance, a king who owns a kingdom. Since their continued wealth is dependent on that kingdom that they own, they will take care of it so that they can continue to milk the revenue. They probably won't completely consume the resources of their property and run it into the ground.

Now a imagine a system in which someone controls something that generates wealth and may expend its resources, but they do not get to keep the wealth that thing generates (or at least only a very small part). But furthermore, they are not liable if that asset goes bankrupt. Any psychologist or economist will tell you that it is very likely that they will divert the resources of that asset towards areas that will give them as much of an advantage as possible (in the case of politicians, political capital) until the resources of that asset are completely depleted. This is to say that not only will they continue to consume all of the revenue that they receive in the form of taxes, but also continue to borrow and consume more than their total revenue stream allows.

And so that is why I am 100% positive that the U.S. government is going bankrupt. The only question is when.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
I doubt you will see an end to the government in the sense of say how say a communist country become a democratic one. I think more you will see a decline in the power of the government which will result in the loss of the value of the dollar among other things. I think that we will sort of enter a time like we have before WW2 where there was no clear world power (The British were in decline at the time, and I do not think China has the capability yet to become a world power). I think the US government will indefinably continue to exist as it presently does until either world disaster or a dictatorship coup happens.

A bankrupt government is still a government.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,501
1
81
I am not sure what you mean by "The end of the US government" and I am not saying it will not happen.

But the major crises in the last 100 years, 1929 Great Depression, Civil Rights, and the Viet Nam war to name a few, did not end the US government. In each case the direction or role of the Federal government changed to address each issue.

Is the Federal government changing its role what you mean by "end of the US government"?

If the US government survived the Great Depression it can be flexible enough to deal with the illegal immigrant issue.

Concerning federal debt, the next president will to have raise taxes and cut spending, for example getting out of Iraq.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
I have a very different take---and I note the U S Constitution has been the model of countless
other countries all over the world. And nearly every other country that has tried to copy our constitution has failed at it. And have ultimately descended into dictatorship.

And the skid down the slippery slope almost always begins with expediency---and someone decides that equal protection under law does not really apply to some groups, or unreasonable search and seizure should be suspended or altered. On some of these points we have often pandered, but when pushed to the wall, we have always rallied to stop those that try to regard our constitution as a scrap of paper. And we saw even a very popular FDR being stopped when he tried to pack the courts, we had a brief flirtation with McCarthy
but ultimately realized we had gone too far, and in many ways---Watergate was a shining moment when countless Americans showed integrity and courage.

And now we face our new test over GWB---all we have to do is lose once---and its all over.
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
I think the end will come in about 20 years.

I think it will end because the average working party can't sustain itself anymore due to high taxes, inflation, etc.

Take for example, my roommmate and I were talking on the way home from work. We calculated with the cost of food, bills, taxes, and our rent it requires us to make about $4000 a month (or $48000 a year). Granted we could have less rent, live in apartment, shave off a few $100's... But just living in a small house and paying the bills everybody else does requires someone to make $48000 a year.

Thats just to sustain ourselves and continue working, that doesn't include fun, video games, etc. With inflation, higher taxes (especially universal health care if Obama gets elected) we're probably gonna need about $55000 a year to sustain ourselves in the next few years. We just had minimium wage bumped up this week, which I'm guessing is going to cause all the prices to jump now which we did not account for.

Most people do not make that amount of money, I'd hate to see the figures if someone has a wife and kids.

As more and more people start to go under, the ones working are gonna have to pull the slack as more assistance is given out. THat is giong to cause taxes to increase, and things are gonna get worse. The economy is going to collapse if that continues.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I have a very different take---and I note the U S Constitution has been the model of countless
other countries all over the world. And nearly every other country that has tried to copy our constitution has failed at it. And have ultimately descended into dictatorship.

And the skid down the slippery slope almost always begins with expediency---and someone decides that equal protection under law does not really apply to some groups, or unreasonable search and seizure should be suspended or altered. On some of these points we have often pandered, but when pushed to the wall, we have always rallied to stop those that try to regard our constitution as a scrap of paper. And we saw even a very popular FDR being stopped when he tried to pack the courts, we had a brief flirtation with McCarthy
but ultimately realized we had gone too far, and in many ways---Watergate was a shining moment when countless Americans showed integrity and courage.

And now we face our new test over GWB---all we have to do is lose once---and its all over.
GWB is but a small piece of the overall equation. I would say he is nearly irrelevant in the long term.

Look a little deeper within our govt, to the state dept. These are lifelong beuracrats(sp) that push agenda's to expand the powers of the federal govt. Administrations come and go, but these people remain, formulating plans to change our landscape forever.

We wont lose in a single battle, but a series of small skirmishes. Then one day we wake up and realize we work for the US govt and they control most of what we do.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: brandonb
I think the end will come in about 20 years.

I think it will end because the average working party can't sustain itself anymore due to high taxes, inflation, etc.

Take for example, my roommmate and I were talking on the way home from work. We calculated with the cost of food, bills, taxes, and our rent it requires us to make about $4000 a month (or $48000 a year). Granted we could have less rent, live in apartment, shave off a few $100's... But just living in a small house and paying the bills everybody else does requires someone to make $48000 a year.

Thats just to sustain ourselves and continue working, that doesn't include fun, video games, etc. With inflation, higher taxes (especially universal health care if Obama gets elected) we're probably gonna need about $55000 a year to sustain ourselves in the next few years. We just had minimium wage bumped up this week, which I'm guessing is going to cause all the prices to jump now which we did not account for.

Most people do not make that amount of money, I'd hate to see the figures if someone has a wife and kids.

As more and more people start to go under, the ones working are gonna have to pull the slack as more assistance is given out.

That is going to cause taxes to increase, and things are gonna get worse. The economy is going to collapse if that continues.
Interesting. Good post.

I've posted this many times over the past several years and starting to see a lot more people saying this. Of course I was labeled all kinds of names when I was the only one saying this.

What will they call you I wonder?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Originally posted by: brandonb
I think the end will come in about 20 years.

I think it will end because the average working party can't sustain itself anymore due to high taxes, inflation, etc.

Take for example, my roommmate and I were talking on the way home from work. We calculated with the cost of food, bills, taxes, and our rent it requires us to make about $4000 a month (or $48000 a year). Granted we could have less rent, live in apartment, shave off a few $100's... But just living in a small house and paying the bills everybody else does requires someone to make $48000 a year.

Thats just to sustain ourselves and continue working, that doesn't include fun, video games, etc. With inflation, higher taxes (especially universal health care if Obama gets elected) we're probably gonna need about $55000 a year to sustain ourselves in the next few years. We just had minimium wage bumped up this week, which I'm guessing is going to cause all the prices to jump now which we did not account for.

Most people do not make that amount of money, I'd hate to see the figures if someone has a wife and kids.

As more and more people start to go under, the ones working are gonna have to pull the slack as more assistance is given out. THat is giong to cause taxes to increase, and things are gonna get worse. The economy is going to collapse if that continues.
Your numbers are plainly crazy. There are plenty of people who make way less and do fine including a house and all that. I know a guy who makes $70k/year, lives in a $210k house with about $7k/year in property taxes (yes $7k/year), has 4 kids, continues to save money, and even goes on vacations.
As more and more people start to go under, the ones working are gonna have to pull the slack as more assistance is given out.
->
Interesting. Good post.

I've posted this many times over the past several years and starting to see a lot more people saying this
And yet you support expansion of social programs, which do nothing but encourage the reliance on government.

Look, people. Get grounded. Reality check. The US is the richest country in the world with the highest per capita income of all but a handful of small peculiar nations. It has low unemployment, vast wealth, vast military, vast resources, generally superior political system (to most countries in the planet). It's not all peaches but to tout doom and gloom as something short term as some here have done is just not based in reality, it's based in factless fear.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,829
804
126
This whole "the economy is collapsing", "house of cards", etc is a bunch of crap. As someone earlier said, we survived the depression. How about you compare our economy to then and tell me we're in trouble. Anyway.

I think in the last 20 years or so we have been moving more and more towards a global economy, which, IMHO, is not only simple progression, but a good idea. I look at it as diversity. Also, as many have indirectly noted, business primarily runs this country. As it should be. Private enterprise is the reason we are wealthy. The more regulation you put on a company, the more you cut into growth and tax revenue.

Personally, I dont see the USA disintigrating per se, as I believe in Democracy, I believe in freedom, and I believe in all the things this country was founded on. I also believe the human race, in general, desires these things as well. Which is why I support our efforts globally to help create democratic governments (or some variation thereof). You say nation building, I say spreading Democracy. You say half empty, I say half full. Thats fine. We all have our opinions. That said-

I see, possibly in my lifetime, a "re-forming" of sorts. For decades there has been a few fringe politicians pushing for state succession, and support seems to grow ever so slowly. At some point I see the US similar to Europe. The big (huge, actually) issues that I believe has prevented this from already happening, is 1. money; 2. military; and 3. taxation. We have a damn good country now, and I believe the those states that DO sucede (sp?) will adopt a similar constitution as the US one.

IMHO.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,829
804
126
Originally posted by: piasabird
You are the US Government.

Of the People, for the People, and by the people.
As cliche as it sounds, people forget this.

So much ranting and raving, this board included, about corruption...greed...mismanagement...elitistism (is that a word?)...

WE FVCKING ELECTED THEM

Im not sure how we got to be at the top 'o the pile with such a low voting percentage, but if people REALLY wanted change, it could happen. Sure there are alot of important decision making positions that not elected. But the important ones are.
 

mc00

Senior member
Jan 25, 2005
277
0
0
I still believe one day our constitution will prevail, people are going to wake up and put there foot down, and fix some the major flaws within our democracy, our democracy isn't perfect how can we be the beacon of freedom if we are so flawed? I don't think we going to fall but I do think we will be hated through out the world if we continue acting like we are perfect and big brother, if people don't wake up soon, we have lost more our liberties in the name of security and keep electing those with big pocket instead of those actually could bring balance to our democracy instead electing those fit your agenda.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Our government died the day we stopped being the government. We have failed to make government work for us, now we work for it.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: blackangst1
This whole "the economy is collapsing", "house of cards", etc is a bunch of crap. As someone earlier said, we survived the depression. How about you compare our economy to then and tell me we're in trouble. Anyway.

I see, possibly in my lifetime, a "re-forming" of sorts. For decades there has been a few fringe politicians pushing for state succession, and support seems to grow ever so slowly.

At some point I see the US similar to Europe. The big (huge, actually) issues that I believe has prevented this from already happening, is 1. money; 2. military; and 3. taxation. We have a damn good country now, and I believe the those states that DO sucede (sp?) will adopt a similar constitution as the US one.

IMHO.
Why would states be seriously looking to secede if there wasn't a major probem?

What states do you believe will succeed in seceding from the U.S. within your lifetime?

Do we then call it "The Divided States"?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
30,102
3,643
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: brandonb
I think the end will come in about 20 years.

I think it will end because the average working party can't sustain itself anymore due to high taxes, inflation, etc.

Take for example, my roommmate and I were talking on the way home from work. We calculated with the cost of food, bills, taxes, and our rent it requires us to make about $4000 a month (or $48000 a year). Granted we could have less rent, live in apartment, shave off a few $100's... But just living in a small house and paying the bills everybody else does requires someone to make $48000 a year.

Thats just to sustain ourselves and continue working, that doesn't include fun, video games, etc. With inflation, higher taxes (especially universal health care if Obama gets elected) we're probably gonna need about $55000 a year to sustain ourselves in the next few years. We just had minimium wage bumped up this week, which I'm guessing is going to cause all the prices to jump now which we did not account for.

Most people do not make that amount of money, I'd hate to see the figures if someone has a wife and kids.

As more and more people start to go under, the ones working are gonna have to pull the slack as more assistance is given out.

That is going to cause taxes to increase, and things are gonna get worse. The economy is going to collapse if that continues.
Interesting. Good post.

I've posted this many times over the past several years and starting to see a lot more people saying this. Of course I was labeled all kinds of names when I was the only one saying this.

What will they call you I wonder?
I agree with what he said, and with you if you say it. That is how the bankruptcy part of our fall plays out, in perfect timing for our civil unrest to come to a head over immigration, that?s if the two political parties don?t spill each other?s blood first over venomous hatred for each other.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
You are the US Government.

Of the People, for the People, and by the people.
No I am not. The U.S. government consists of people other than myself, and every day they make me do things that I don't want to, namely pay taxes. They also made me register for social security and the draft. Two other things I want out of immediately. If I were the U.S. government, I would have repealed myself a long time ago.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
This whole "the economy is collapsing", "house of cards", etc is a bunch of crap. As someone earlier said, we survived the depression.
I didn't say we won't survive. I said that the U.S. government is going bankrupt. That is the reality of the situation.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,829
804
126
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: piasabird
You are the US Government.

Of the People, for the People, and by the people.
No I am not. The U.S. government consists of people other than myself, and every day they make me do things that I don't want to, namely pay taxes. They also made me register for social security and the draft. Two other things I want out of immediately. If I were the U.S. government, I would have repealed myself a long time ago.
Interesting. Naive, but interesting. Let me ask you this: Do you belive there should be SOME form of federal government? If so (and you dont think anarchy is a valid alternative) how in the hell do you fund it?
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: blackangst1
This whole "the economy is collapsing", "house of cards", etc is a bunch of crap. As someone earlier said, we survived the depression.
I didn't say we won't survive. I said that the U.S. government is going bankrupt. That is the reality of the situation.
The prescription drug benefits that was signed a couple of years ago is going to be our achilles heel, long before SS goes belly up.

We are completely screwed and everyone in Congress knows it, they really did a number on the American people in favor of the drug companies.
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: piasabird
You are the US Government.

Of the People, for the People, and by the people.
No I am not. The U.S. government consists of people other than myself, and every day they make me do things that I don't want to, namely pay taxes. They also made me register for social security and the draft. Two other things I want out of immediately. If I were the U.S. government, I would have repealed myself a long time ago.

I didn't say we won't survive. I said that the U.S. government is going bankrupt. That is the reality of the situation.
Everyone feels that way. I don't think People refer to just you, but majority of People. If enough People don't want something, our current government most likely will follow. Problem is most Americans just dont' care. The system now is teetering along with its gears slowly collecting rust until....

But yeah, I don't see how we can keep borrowing credit to run the country. People seem to think just because when they were born, US government has always been here, that it'll go on forever. I think we forgot life does change, go thru phases, and sometimes other people will die. Including our government. No government lasts forever.

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,829
804
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: blackangst1
This whole "the economy is collapsing", "house of cards", etc is a bunch of crap. As someone earlier said, we survived the depression. How about you compare our economy to then and tell me we're in trouble. Anyway.

I see, possibly in my lifetime, a "re-forming" of sorts. For decades there has been a few fringe politicians pushing for state succession, and support seems to grow ever so slowly.

At some point I see the US similar to Europe. The big (huge, actually) issues that I believe has prevented this from already happening, is 1. money; 2. military; and 3. taxation. We have a damn good country now, and I believe the those states that DO sucede (sp?) will adopt a similar constitution as the US one.

IMHO.
1. Why would states be seriously looking to secede if there wasn't a major probem?

2. What states do you believe will succeed in seceding from the U.S. within your lifetime?

3. Do we then call it "The Divided States"?
1st question: Perhaps you misunderstood what I said, or I wasnt clear. I dont think there is a major problem, and states are NOT seriously looking to secede. It's more like whispers. The biggest reason I think secession is viable? See my answer below.

2nd question: Southern California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, MAYBE Utah, and MAYBE Colorado. Why? The same reason these states have begun to pass heavy illegal immigration laws. A weak border. I travel maybe a couple days/month to Mexico, and have gotten to know a few border guards. Trust me when I tell you they want nothing more than to shoot to kill. Ohhhhh it's so inhumane! People say. Bullshit. It's NOT THEIR COUNTRY. Many friendly countries around the world dont take lightly illegal entry. Arizona is an open carry state, and, like the above listed states, we love our guns. People that live on the border have no problems whatsoever shooting to kill anyone that steps onto or into their private property. Why? Because they dont belong there. Period. Our federal government, especially the current administration, has made a mockery of our border. "We're going to put National Guard on the border!" Yeah. With no loaded weapons, and no authority to actually protect this country. It's bullshit. I guarantee you give them authority to shoot to kill and border crossing will slow down. I have talked to many mexicans (in mexico) who also think our border is a joke. They laugh (literally) at how easy it is to cross. And the kicker? They are happy there are tents set up woth water for them. It's bullshit. And most of us who live here, whose resources are given to these border hoppers, are growing tired of the federal governments inability or refusal to not only enforce current law, but to make sure our resources are spent on CITIZENS of our country and not freeloaders. /end rant

3rd question: No, not the Divided States. That gives the impression we are still under the same flag, under the same constitution. When I say secede, I mean secede. New country. New flag. New contitution. New rules.

But, as many theories here, it's all speculation.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
The end of the U.S. government

When will it end?

How will it end?
How will it end? - Lawyers (including SCOTUS and those whom are elected officials) will continue slowly changing it through interpretations and re-interpretations of the Constitution (e.g., eminent domain) so that it does NOT resemble anything as originally intended.

The now long established permanent political class is a very powerful engine in changing the governement to something unrecognizable. Whereas the original Gentlemen/Farmer/Statesmen had an understandable vested interested in constraining the size and scope of the federal goverment, the current class of professional beaurocrats is exactly the opposite. They are slowly and successfully inculcating a sense of dependancy upon the government. They are raising us as a strong base of consumers of government: selling us "security". Security from health issues, crime issues, "fairness" (discrimination etc), weather problems, terrorists, etc. The more protection you seek from Big Daddy, the more you are willing to give up. I understand that slighlty over half (or something similar) the population already works for the governement (in one form or another). These people (seekers of security and employees) will continue to vote to further empower the governement.

When will it end? - Well, IMO, it will be a slow on-going process. I believed it started long ago, and I believe it will simply continue. Does anybody else think the Founding Fathers had such ideas as real estate tax in mind? I don't. Miss a few years payment and the government takes your property. Sounds a lot like the Ole "King-type" model where you had to pay royalties & taxes that they were trying to get away from.

The government ending from financial troubles? I don't see that hapening.

Fern
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Interesting. Naive, but interesting.
Why is it naive? Do you realize that a large part of the U.S. government is now funded by foreigners? How long do you think they are going to keep buying U.S. bonds or use U.S. currency? Certainly not forever. Nothing reeks of collapse more than when a country's government is funded by outsiders.

Furthermore, the U.S. government is facing enormous welfare liabilities in the coming decades. The foreigners won't bail the U.S. out of that one, that is for sure. Eventually the government's credit rating will go in the toilet.

Let me ask you this: Do you belive there should be SOME form of federal government? If so (and you dont think anarchy is a valid alternative) how in the hell do you fund it?
It does not really matter whether I believe that there should be a federal government. Right now what matters is whether or not the federal government can continue to exist indefinitely. I claim it can not. A situation in which those who control the country's resources:

A. Are not liable for the government's debt.
B. Have no real stake in the government's continued existence.

is simply not sustainable.

The only reason this situation has gone on for as long as it has is simply due to the government's ability to extract massive amounts of wealth, and inflate the currency. But even that massive wealth will not be enough for those in power. They will continue to consume all of that plus more.

If a small corporation was run like this, it would be bankrupted much sooner.

To answer your question though, no I do not believe in a federal government as it exists now. The federal government now is out of control with money and power and is clearly unsustainable.

I do not believe in what you think of as anarchy. I do see a potential for an entity to exist that operates on a nationwide basis for defense purposes. But one necessary prerequisite for such an entity is that those who operate it have to be directly and personally liable for its actions, and the resources it consumes.

I also do not believe in any form of taxation as it exists now. But that's a different story.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Fern

The government ending from financial troubles? I don't see that hapening.

Fern
Why do you say that right after you admit that the political class is growing while the productive class is shrinking, at the same time the government's debt continues to grow unabated?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,829
804
126
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Fern

The government ending from financial troubles? I don't see that hapening.

Fern
Why do you say that right after you admit that the political class is growing while the productive class is shrinking, at the same time the government's debt continues to grow unabated?
You dont honestly think the fed debt, as it exists today, is relevant...do you?

Productive class shrinking? WTF is a productive class?
 

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