The end nears for incredibly over budget "clean coal" project

[Dave_5k]

$7.5B for a not even 600MW power plant, that doesn't work. That's pretty astonishing.

The same money would have probably bought about 7GW worth of wind turbines, installed.

Unfortunately this is Mississippi, which has no reliable wind resource, likely less than 15% wind capacity factor on wind turbines there, with an average installed cost for utility scale wind at $1.5B/GW, would leave you only a smidge ahead of the most expensive power plant ever built (on a unit basis). Lots of areas wind turbines can make sense, MS isn't one of them.
Solar would be a significantly better option there, or just build a frackin $500-$600 million combined cycle natural gas plant in the first place, with less emissions than the theoretical "clean" coal would have ever managed even if it had worked.

 

[K1052]

Unfortunately this is Mississippi, which has no reliable wind resource, likely less than 15% wind capacity factor on wind turbines there, with an average installed cost for utility scale wind at $1.5B/GW, would leave you only a smidge ahead of the most expensive power plant ever built (on a unit basis). Lots of areas wind turbines can make sense, MS isn't one of them.
Solar would be a significantly better option there, or just build a frackin $500-$600 million combined cycle natural gas plant in the first place, with less emissions than the theoretical "clean" coal would have ever managed even if it had worked.

I don't think I said the turbines had to be sited in Mississippi, nor should they be.

Solar definitely is an option for local generation though.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Again, overproduction will exist then just as it does now which means that even if a big supply shuts down then it will be covered just as a big supply shutting down now is covered.

Nationwide with enough farms to keep overproduction there will always be enough wind. As mentioned earlier, wind is predictable and where to put the plants depends on that predictability.

I can tell you've never worked in power generation. Overproduction would result in higher voltage levels which would be bad for electrical distribution equipment and electicity users. There are units running in rolling reserve so in the event of plant tripping they can be ramped up quickly to make up for the shortfall.

 

[J.Wilkins]

I can tell you've never worked in power generation. Overproduction would result in higher voltage levels which would be bad for electrical distribution equipment and electicity users. There are units running in rolling reserve so in the event of plant tripping they can be ramped up quickly to make up for the shortfall.

Overproduction in this case refers to peak production, same as today and it's obvious what I meant from what i posted. Also, if the US power distribution system is so horribly designed that it would allow for direct current overflow then it needs to be scrapped completely, nationally, and rebuilt. It would equal out as transformers would take care of the problem if we did that in England.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Overproduction in this case refers to peak production, same as today and it's obvious what I meant from what i posted. Also, if the US power distribution system is so horribly designed that it would allow for direct current overflow then it needs to be scrapped completely, nationally, and rebuilt. It would equal out as transformers would take care of the problem if we did that in England.

Peaking units can either be started quickly (gas turbine) or be in rolling reserve (running at 10%-15%). The power companies do not overproduce, they produce what is required by the grid load demands. They run as close to unity power factor as they can but the grid demands they run slightly lagging power factor to support the starting of large inductive loads.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Peaking units can either be started quickly (gas turbine) or be in rolling reserve (running at 10%-15%). The power companies do not overproduce, they produce what is required by the grid load demands. They run as close to unity power factor as they can but the grid demands they run slightly lagging power factor to support the starting of large inductive loads.

I don't know if you are misinterpreting what I say on purpose or if you are an idiot. Either way, this discussion is over.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Trump wants to build a "Solar Wall" on the U.S.-Mexico border.

"We are thinking about building a wall as a solar wall," he said. "So it creates energy. And pays for itself. And this way, Mexico will have to pay much less money. And that's good, right? Is that good? You are the first group I've told that to. It makes sense. Let's see. We are working it out. Solar wall panels. Think of it, the higher it goes, the more valuable it is. Pretty good imagination, right? My idea. We have a good shot. That's one of the places where solar really does work. At the tremendous sun and heat. We will see what happens."

Of course! It was Trump's idea. He invented solar power, just after he wrote those award winning opera scores.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Trump wants to build a "Solar Wall" on the U.S.-Mexico border.

"We are thinking about building a wall as a solar wall," he said. "So it creates energy. And pays for itself. And this way, Mexico will have to pay much less money. And that's good, right? Is that good? You are the first group I've told that to. It makes sense. Let's see. We are working it out. Solar wall panels. Think of it, the higher it goes, the more valuable it is. Pretty good imagination, right? My idea. We have a good shot. That's one of the places where solar really does work. At the tremendous sun and heat. We will see what happens."

Of course! It was Trump's idea. He invented solar power, just after he wrote those award winning opera scores.

That would drive the cost of the wall up 3 times to 200-250b dollars and it would be an insane idea given the small surface area and the fitting being adjusted to the wall rather than towards the sun.

But he doesn't get that, so he'll just say it and every idiot will cheer... as always.

 

[VRAMdemon]

That would drive the cost of the wall up 3 times to 200-250b dollars and it would be an insane idea given the small surface area and the fitting being adjusted to the wall rather than towards the sun.

But he doesn't get that, so he'll just say it and every idiot will cheer... as always.

Not to mention, the fun part, of course, will be policing the wall for people with water balloons full of paint.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Not to mention, the fun part, of course, will be policing the wall for people with water balloons full of paint.

Ah, the "coal people" and their antics....

 

[UNCjigga]

That would drive the cost of the wall up 3 times to 200-250b dollars and it would be an insane idea given the small surface area and the fitting being adjusted to the wall rather than towards the sun.

But he doesn't get that, so he'll just say it and every idiot will cheer... as always.

Ok ok, how bout this...Instead of a wall, we just build a solar death trap! We angle the panels in such a way as to create intense searing heat so anyone trying to cross through would be burned to death in seconds!!! At night, we'd just use the power generated to power an electrified fence! My idea, I hope Trump doesn't steal it...

 

[J.Wilkins]

Ok ok, how bout this...Instead of a wall, we just build a solar death trap! We angle the panels in such a way as to create intense searing heat so anyone trying to cross through would be burned to death in seconds!!! At night, we'd just use the power generated to power an electrified fence! My idea, I hope Trump doesn't steal it...

Truth is, if you really wanted a barrier a minefield would do the job.

But you really don't.

Also, a microwave frequency guard system exists today and could actually be used in the way you are purporting but I really don't want to give the clown wig any ideas.

 

[UNCjigga]

Truth is, if you really wanted a barrier a minefield would do the job.

I'm sure the Alt Right would be all for minefields if it wasn't for those pesky globalist Geneva Conventions.

 

[Paratus]

I'm talking long term though, when the nuke and coal plants are gone and we have wind/solar/hydro (minus dam based hydro). So we get to this essentially renewable future, but can in fact that future support current 1st world lifestyle in locations that aren't by the sea and don't have 364 days of sunshine? I get that wind is going to be 'the answer' but WTF is going to happen when we hit a condition where there isn't enough wind?

Yes but that future always seems to be...the future. We need an environmentally neutral battery storage tech that lasts, say, 10 years before needing replacement, is good for the number of charge cycles that will be encountered over those 10 years, charge quickly, hold a charge for long periods of time, is light enough and durable enough for automotive use, and is recyclable (so we only have to obtain it once). Bonus if we don't have to mine the land for it and can instead procure it from the ocean floor.

From personal experience, albeit on a smaller scale, it is absolutely possible to perform mission critical operations, (e.g. supplying electrical power without interruption to life support and experiments), 24/7/365 on nothing but intermittent power, (solar arrays in my case) and energy storage (batteries that last for 10 years).

It requires

• Sizing the arrays much larger than the maximum average allowable load. (2.5X in our case)
• Sizing the batteries and power equipment to discharge above maximum peak loads (1.5X more than the maximum in our case)
• Having enough energy storage to cover planned outages, (like night in our case), but also enough margin to allow corrective actions to take place if an unexpected outage occurs even if electrical loading is running at the maximum allowable
• Designing and operating with tight temperature ranges and minimizing depth of discharge on batteries to obtain 8-10 year life spans.
• Having appropriate amounts of redundancy in power generation, storage, and equipment.
• Having a group provide predictive power analyses

Most battery material once mined can be recycled. Energy storage also doesn't need to be only batteries:

• Pumped hydro
• Flywheels
• Compressed Air

It's a pain in the ass but intermittent power sources coupled with energy storage can meet our needs if the system is designed and operated correctly.

 

[J.Wilkins]

I'm sure the Alt Right would be all for minefields if it wasn't for those pesky globalist Geneva Conventions.

LOL, like the US gives a fuck about the Geneva Conventions... Never have, never will...

 

[IronWing]

LOL, like the US gives a fuck about the Geneva Conventions... Never have, never will...

The US never signed onto the land mine ban. The US considers the use of land mines essential to the defense of South Korea.

 

[J.Wilkins]

The US never signed onto the land mine ban. The US considers the use of land mines essential to the defense of South Korea.

I know, but the idea that they give a fuck about any agreement, treaty or deals is laughable. I want a strong EU and an JTF between all of our western nations to make NATO irrelevant. If they need help with their next war they can hire our troops to send in first like they did in Afghanistan and Iraq, the JTF is out of NATO deployment in the UK next year... You should follow, Aussies should follow, the EU should follow, one fucking giant in the middle of this shit is what we need.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I don't know if you are misinterpreting what I say on purpose or if you are an idiot. Either way, this discussion is over.

No, the way you're describing shows your lack of knowledge. I have no doubt you have never worked in power generation. I have installed/commissioned steam turbine generators and operated small power generation statons so I know how they are operated in the US and Canada on the east/west/Texas grids.

 

[Paratus]

No, the way you're describing shows your lack of knowledge. I have no doubt you have never worked in power generation. I have installed/commissioned steam turbine generators and operated small power generation statons so I know how they are operated in the US and Canada on the east/west/Texas grids.

While he is not using the right terminology his point it still correct if I understand him.

What he's talking about is capacity. If load increases then power generation stations increase production to meet that load. If the load increase is higher than the combined capacity of the stations supplying the load other stations like peakers have to be brought online or risk loadsheds, brownouts or blackouts.

A grid supported by mainly intermittent power sources like wind and solar would also need excess capacity for the same reasons as a fossil fuel powered grid, to deal with high loads or loss of power stations due to maintenance or failures. In addition it would also need more capacity to deal with the intermittent nature of the power source.

Fundamentally it's still the same thing we do with the current grid.