The Economist provides the best article yet on the science of climate change

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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I very liberally snipped away at this long article from The Economist on the basics of the climate change debate. I think it does a good job of educating us laypeople on the basics.

Note: The 'author' of the first graph that explains global energy flows is the IPCC's own Kevin "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't" Trenberth. Make of that what you will.

The science of climate change: The clouds of unknowing

The Basics

The most relevant part of that universal what-else is the requirement laid down by thermodynamics that, for a planet at a constant temperature, the amount of energy absorbed as sunlight and the amount emitted back to space in the longer wavelengths of the infra-red must be the same. In the case of the Earth, the amount of sunlight absorbed is 239 watts per square metre. According to the laws of thermodynamics, a simple body emitting energy at that rate should have a temperature of about –18ºC.

You do not need a comprehensive set of surface-temperature data to notice that this is not the average temperature at which humanity goes about its business. The discrepancy is due to greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, which absorb and re-emit infra-red radiation, and thus keep the lower atmosphere, and the surface, warm (see the diagram below). The radiation that gets out to the cosmos comes mostly from above the bulk of the greenhouse gases, where the air temperature is indeed around –18ºC.

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Adding to those greenhouse gases in the atmosphere makes it harder still for the energy to get out. As a result, the surface and the lower atmosphere warm up. This changes the average temperature, the way energy moves from the planet’s surface to the atmosphere above it and the way that energy flows from equator to poles, thus changing the patterns of the weather.

No one doubts that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, good at absorbing infra-red radiation. It is also well established that human activity is putting more of it into the atmosphere than natural processes can currently remove. Measurements made since the 1950s show the level of carbon dioxide rising year on year, from 316 parts per million (ppm) in 1959 to 387ppm in 2009. Less direct records show that the rise began about 1750, and that the level was stable at around 280ppm for about 10,000 years before that.

This fits with human history: in the middle of the 18th century people started to burn fossil fuels in order to power industrial machinery. Analysis of carbon isotopes, among other things, shows that the carbon dioxide from industry accounts for most of the build-up in the atmosphere.

The serious disagreements start when discussion turns to the level of warming associated with that rise in carbon dioxide. For various reasons, scientists would not expect temperatures simply to rise in step with the carbon dioxide (and other greenhouse gases). The climate is a noisy thing, with ups and downs of its own that can make trends hard to detect.

What’s more, the oceans can absorb a great deal of heat—and there is evidence that they have done so—and in storing heat away, they add inertia to the system. This means that the atmosphere will warm more slowly than a given level of greenhouse gas would lead you to expect.

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The Complications

For many, the facts that an increase in carbon dioxide should produce warming, and that warming is observed in a number of different indicators and measurements, add up to a primafacie case for accepting that greenhouse gases are warming the Earth and that the higher levels of greenhouse gases that business as usual would bring over the course of this century would warm it a lot further.

The warming caused by a given increase in carbon dioxide can be calculated on the basis of laboratory measurements which show how much infra-red radiation at which specific wavelengths carbon dioxide molecules absorb. This sort of work shows that if you double the carbon dioxide level you get about 1ºC of warming. So the shift from the pre-industrial 280ppm to 560ppm, a level which on current trends might be reached around 2070, makes the world a degree warmer. If the level were to double again, to 1,100ppm, which seems unlikely, you would get another degree.

The amount of warming expected for a doubling of carbon dioxide has become known as the “climate sensitivity”—and a climate sensitivity of one degree would be small enough to end most climate-related worries. But carbon dioxide’s direct effect is not the only thing to worry about. Several types of feedback can amplify its effect. The most important involve water vapour, which is now quite well understood, and clouds, which are not. It is on these areas that academic doubters tend to focus.

As carbon dioxide warms the air it also moistens it, and because water vapour is a powerful greenhouse gas, that will provide further warming. Other things people do—such as clearing land for farms, and irrigating them—also change water vapour levels, and these can be significant on a regional level. But the effects are not as large.

Climate doubters raise various questions about water vapour, some trivial, some serious. A trivial one is to argue that because water vapour is such a powerful greenhouse gas, carbon dioxide is unimportant. But this ignores the fact that the level of water vapour depends on temperature. A higher level of carbon dioxide, by contrast, governs temperature, and can endure for centuries.

The Models

It is at this point that detailed computer models of the climate need to be called into play. These models slice the atmosphere and oceans into stacks of three-dimensional cells. The state of the air (temperature, pressure, etc) within each cell is continuously updated on the basis of what its state used to be, what is going on in adjacent cells and the greenhousing and other properties of its contents.

These models are phenomenally complex. They are also gross oversimplifications. The size of the cells stops them from explicitly capturing processes that take place at scales smaller than a hundred kilometres or so, which includes the processes that create clouds.

Despite their limitations, climate models do capture various aspects of the real world’s climate: seasons, trade winds, monsoons and the like. They also put clouds in the places where they are seen. When used to explore the effect of an increase in atmospheric greenhouse gases on the climate these models, which have been developed by different teams, all predict more warming than greenhouse gases and water-vapour feedback can supply unaided.

The models assessed for the IPCC’s fourth report had sensitivities ranging from 2.1ºC to 4.4ºC. The IPCC estimated that if clouds were not included, the range would be more like 1.7ºC to 2.1ºC. So in all the models clouds amplify warming, and in some the amplification is large.

However, there are so far no compelling data on how clouds are affecting warming in fact, as opposed to in models. Ray Pierrehumbert, a climate scientist at the University of Chicago who generally has a strong way with sceptics, is happy to agree that there might be processes by which clouds rein in, rather than exaggerate, greenhouse-warming effects, but adds that, so far, few have been suggested in any way that makes sense.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Lets see if I can get my arms around this, a magazine dedicate to the imprecise social science of economics presumes to have an answer for global warming.

And even as a global warming advocate, I am no fan of Al Gore either, because both AL Gore and the economist magazine try to understand global warming by the uni-dimensional levels of CO2.

1. Admittedly, even though our understanding of global warming matures far beyond AL Gore levels, its clear we ill understand all the variables or how they interact.

2. Its a slam dunk that man made global warming is a very real threat.

3. Its would be wonderful if I could say we have a complete understanding and thus know exactly what to do, but just like the fact you never know if crossing those double yellow lines in passing on a highway, we can get away with it if a car is not coming in that other lane, but we also must err on the side of caution because we could hit non reversible tipping points that could spell disaster. In short, we will never have complete information but must act on the information we have. We do it every day.

Do you believe real climate scientists or would we rather believe GWB political operatives paid by oil companies?
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Do you believe real climate scientists or would we rather believe GWB political operatives paid by oil companies?

You mean the real ones that grafted the hockey stick? I have yet to see scientists come up with a controlled experiment that shows that the recent rise in temperatures is completely mad-made.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
wow, it didn't take long for someone to bring up the good old hockey stick BS....read your updated talking points memo, even your team has long ago removed that one from the list
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Lets see if I can get my arms around this, a magazine dedicate to the imprecise social science of economics presumes to have an answer for global warming.

This may have set a record for the number of incorrect statements made in a single sentence.

wow, it didn't take long for someone to bring up the good old hockey stick BS....read your updated talking points memo, even your team has long ago removed that one from the list

It's a legitimate criticism, which the article does touch upon (I did not quote this piece above):

Moving into data from the past, though, brings the argument to one of the areas that blog-based doubters have chosen as a preferred battleground: the temperature record of the past millennium, as construed from natural records that are both sensitive to temperature and capable of precise dating. Tree rings are the obvious, and most controversial, example. Their best known use has been in a reconstruction of temperatures over the past millennium published in Nature in 1998 and widely known as the hockey stick, because it was mostly flat but had a blade sticking up at the 20th-century end. Stephen McIntyre, a retired Canadian mining consultant, was struck by the very clear message of this graph and delved into the science behind it, a process that left him and followers of his blog, Climate Audit, intensely sceptical about its value.

In 2006 a review by America’s National Research Council endorsed points Mr McIntyre and his colleagues made on some methods used to make the hockey stick, and on doubts over a specific set of tree rings. Despite this it sided with the hockey stick’s overall conclusion, which did little to stem the criticism. The fact that tree-ring records do not capture recent warming adds to the scepticism about the value of such records.

For many of Mr McIntyre’s fans (though it is not, he says, his central concern) the important thing about this work is that the hockey stick seemed to abolish the “medieval warm period”. This is a time when temperatures are held to have been as high as or higher than today’s—a warmth associated with the Norse settlement of Greenland and vineyards in England. Many climate scientists suspect this phenomenon was given undue prominence by climatologists of earlier generations with an unduly Eurocentric view of the world. There is evidence for cooling at the time in parts of the Pacific.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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I did not see enough scientific information. Like what is the carbon cycle and how long does it take for carbon to be eliminated from the atmosphere. My other question would have been what warmed up the earth after the last Ice Age?? Who was making the carbon then?

The more I look at this the more I think that is is a little more complicated. For instance, how do we come up with a formula for carbon by computing the volume of air in the atmosphere and the percentage of carbon, taking into account the release rate for carbon out of the atmosphere and the insertion rate of Carbon into the atmosphere? Until we have that, we dont really know what the acutal overall model for retention of Carbon. Then there is this other wierd model where the carbon is trapped in ocean water. How do we know how much is down there and how is it released and at what rate?

Then there is the effect of radiation and heat generated by the sun. Most models do not include this in the model. However, rationally, it must have some effect. It is a mistake to consider this to be a constant. The earth's distance from the Sun changes and its location is on a very long cycle. Even the Egyptians and the Greeks knew about this. We also know that the sun has sun flares and sun spots. One reason we study this is because it has an effect on radio and satelite signals.

It is hard to determine other things as well. Like what makes Magma heat up? Does the amount of magma fluctuate? Is it building up?

I will not pass judgement, there are just too many outlyers or unaccountable data elements. When you study statistics you learn that patterns dont always add up.
 
Oct 27, 2007
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Why don't you P&N kiddies stick to the politics and let the grown ups discuss the science. This isn't a political issue, no matter how much your warped political system tries to turn it into one.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
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Why don't you P&N kiddies stick to the politics and let the grown ups discuss the science. This isn't a political issue, no matter how much your warped political system tries to turn it into one.

And so you posted it in POLITICS and news because... ? It's hardly news.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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You mean the real ones that grafted the hockey stick? I have yet to see scientists come up with a controlled experiment that shows that the recent rise in temperatures is completely mad-made.
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I will agree with the Hacp contention that its not proved. But then again, I have yet to see any scientifically controlled experiment that proves that the large recent temperature rises have nothing to do with man made causes either.

Why then should Hasp then conclude that we should reject the probability that climate change is due to man made causes?

When neither side can prove it.

It still defaults to the fact that we must act on incomplete information, as we play the gambling game of we bet human prosperity and survival.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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Why don't you P&N kiddies stick to the politics and let the grown ups discuss the science. This isn't a political issue, no matter how much your warped political system tries to turn it into one.

To the contrary, it's completely a political issue; otherwise it wouldn't matter if someone believed the science or not. The bottom line is that people have called the bluff of the dire warnings of the manmade global warming alarmist crowd and refused to go along with the "solutions" they propose. Even people who believe in climate change aren't willing to subject themselves to the economic costs and loss of freedoms that they'd be subjected to should they agree to the demands of the luddite environmentalist movement. The AGW crowd hasn't figured this out yet and so just redouble their efforts at exclaiming "the science is settled" when the rest of us have stopped listening to them.
 
Oct 27, 2007
17,009
5
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To the contrary, it's completely a political issue; otherwise it wouldn't matter if someone believed the science or not. The bottom line is that people have called the bluff of the dire warnings of the manmade global warming alarmist crowd and refused to go along with the "solutions" they propose. Even people who believe in climate change aren't willing to subject themselves to the economic costs and loss of freedoms that they'd be subjected to should they agree to the demands of the luddite environmentalist movement. The AGW crowd hasn't figured this out yet and so just redouble their efforts at exclaiming "the science is settled" when the rest of us have stopped listening to them.
As usual the politics-obsessed dummies get it wrong. P&Ners simply aren't up to discussing science, none of you are mature enough to discuss it openly and honestly.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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As usual the politics-obsessed dummies get it wrong. P&Ners simply aren't up to discussing science, none of you are mature enough to discuss it openly and honestly.

Are you stupid? I'll stipulate whatever you want about the science, the fact remains that scientists don't make policy so who fvkcing cares?
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
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Even people who believe in climate change aren't willing to subject themselves to the economic costs and loss of freedoms that they'd be subjected to should they agree to the demands of the luddite environmentalist movement.
Real environmentalists (ie not stoner fuckheads) have been demanding nuclear power for decades. It's always stopped by some retarded group of soccer moms who dropped out of high school.

It doesn't matter how many times I draw a graph or try to explain grade 10, 11, and 12 mathematics, people just don't get it. The more dangerous something is, the shorter the decay time is. Shooting out a ton of alpha and beta particles means it's decaying extremely fast. An isotope with a half-life of a billion years is a safe isotope because that means it decays at a very slow rate. This idea was vaguely covered in a Penn & Teller episode where they said:
"but what happens if the truck crashes and spills nuclear material everywhere!?!"
"just pick it up and put it back on the truck"


Europeans are already onboard with this idea. Almost 80% of France's electricity is nuclear. Lithuania, Slovakia, Belgium, and Sweden are all around 50-70% nuclear. Wikipedia says China has 9 nuclear power plants built since 2007. Canada is about 15% nuclear. USA is about 20% nuclear. Canada and USA are a bit behind because we're sitting on mountains of cheap coal. Literally mountains made of coal!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,709
6,266
126
Real environmentalists (ie not stoner fuckheads) have been demanding nuclear power for decades. It's always stopped by some retarded group of soccer moms who dropped out of high school.

It doesn't matter how many times I draw a graph or try to explain grade 10, 11, and 12 mathematics, people just don't get it. The more dangerous something is, the shorter the decay time is. Shooting out a ton of alpha and beta particles means it's decaying extremely fast. An isotope with a half-life of a billion years is a safe isotope because that means it decays at a very slow rate. This idea was vaguely covered in a Penn & Teller episode where they said:
"but what happens if the truck crashes and spills nuclear material everywhere!?!"
"just pick it up and put it back on the truck"


Europeans are already onboard with this idea. Almost 80% of France's electricity is nuclear. Lithuania, Slovakia, Belgium, and Sweden are all around 50-70% nuclear. Wikipedia says China has 9 nuclear power plants built since 2007. Canada is about 15% nuclear. USA is about 20% nuclear. Canada and USA are a bit behind because we're sitting on mountains of cheap coal. Literally mountains made of coal!

Canada has a lot of Hydro Production. Coal is used in certain places, but not like it is in the US.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
14
81
The models assessed for the IPCC’s fourth report had sensitivities ranging from 2.1ºC to 4.4ºC. The IPCC estimated that if clouds were not included, the range would be more like 1.7ºC to 2.1ºC. So in all the models clouds amplify warming, and in some the amplification is large.

Wait a minute. These models have sensitivities on the order of degrees, anywhere from 1.7 to 4.4. But the collected data tells us that the global average temperature has increased by 0.4C over the last 100 years, which, they tell us, is a problem. And we're headed for doomsday according to the models. But the models are nowhere near accurate enough to predict anything. Isn't there a problem here?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,709
6,266
126
Wait a minute. These models have sensitivities on the order of degrees, anywhere from 1.7 to 4.4. But the collected data tells us that the global average temperature has increased by 0.4C over the last 100 years, which, they tell us, is a problem. And we're headed for doomsday according to the models. But the models are nowhere near accurate enough to predict anything. Isn't there a problem here?

The Models Predict the Trend very accurately.