The economics of Unions-> They are Evil or website is anti-union?

[JEDI]

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/LaborUnions.html

"unions are a major anticompetitive force in labor markets. Their gains come at the expense of consumers, nonunion workers, the jobless, taxpayers, and owners of corporations.

Unions’ power to fix high prices for their members’ labor rests on legal privileges and immunities that they get from government, both by statute and by nonenforcement of other laws.

Unions representing garment workers, textile workers, white-collar government workers, and teachers seem to have little impact on wages"
hmm...?


I'm torn. My dad is in a union. It has provided for us when i was young.

on the other hand, because of the Beacon-Davis act, federal construction jobs are set at union pay even if a non-union company wins the bid.

Thus my tax $$$ are being WASTED big time!!!

Discuss!


Edit:
union officials can force compulsory union dues from employees—members and nonmembers alike—as a condition for keeping their jobs

WTF?!?! how can unions force non-members to pay dues else lose their jobs?!

 

[theflyingpig]

Unions are a form of terrorism, and should be treated as such.

 

[bfdd]

When I was in a union the orientation class was hilarious. They tried very hard to indoctrinate people. Lots of misinformation etc. I only joined up so I could get higher wages in the field I wanted to work in and good medical benefits.

 

[joesmoke]

unions remind me of the police/highwaypatrol in that they get to be so big that they start to serve in their own interests instead of doing what theyre there for.

 

[Wyndru]

I don't know too much about them, but from what my parents' union was compared to what I have now, they seem very different. I know my union never settles anything on time and they always push for WAY more than they should, which means our raises come a year or 2 late (prorated) and much less than they originally pushed for. When there are serious issues, they are usually slow to respond, and the dues keep increasing. It's almost like our union doesn't have as much power as it thinks it does.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

i promise you, you won't get straight info from either unions or their opposition.

without unions, baby bell employees would make 1/4 to 1/3 their current income, electrical utility guys would probably make about 1/2. are they currently overpaid? absolutely not.

on the other hand, my friend in the post office says the union is in bed with the company and has sold postal workers down the river, while union leaders do quite well.

 

[rcpratt]

Evil, but I am white-collar and was raised by white-collar parents. I expect most answers will rely heavily on personal or family work experience.

 

[Fayd]

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/LaborUnions.html

"unions are a major anticompetitive force in labor markets. Their gains come at the expense of consumers, nonunion workers, the jobless, taxpayers, and owners of corporations.

Unions’ power to fix high prices for their members’ labor rests on legal privileges and immunities that they get from government, both by statute and by nonenforcement of other laws.

yes, unions are anti-competitive and a drain/blight upon a capitalist society.

I'm torn. My dad is in a union. It has provided for us when i was young.

it's tough to handle when you realize you're part of the problem. aside from the simple problem of unions essentially being explicit collusion of suppliers (suppliers of labor), unions engage in illegal practices (bribes and coercion) to win contracts, exclusivity rules, forcing payment of union dues by both members and nonmembers, etc, and engage in other illegal practices (destruction of property, coercion, etc) to discourage companies from going outside the union labor pool. (scabs.)

unions are bullshit. they're a blight upon society.

 

[BoomerD]

Unions are perhaps the single greatest contributor to the "middle class" of America.

Do you enjoy any of the hard-fought benefits of union labor?

Things like:

paid vacations
sick leave
holiday pay
Social Security
health insurance
safe working conditions
8 hour work day (for most)
pensions (far superior to today's 401K types of retirement plans)
Higher wages/salaries...even for those who hate unions...you still benefit.

All of these benefits and more were earned with the blood, sweat and tears — and sometimes the lives — of those in unions and the labor movement who proudly fought for them so that all workers can enjoy them.


If you hate unions, feel free to refuse any of the benefits that we union folks have forced upon you...
All of these benefits and more were earned with the blood, sweat and tears — and sometimes the lives — of those in unions and the labor movement who proudly fought for them so that all workers can enjoy them.

 

[techs]

Unions are responsible for the 40 hour week, employer paid health care and pensions. They are resposnible for women having the right to vote, health and safety regulations.
Amongst many other things.

Not saying we wouldn't have some of these things without unions, but without unions we may not have them. Or at least have waited many, many years for them.

 

[mmntech]

Unions are a business now and have been for a long time. To pretend they're anything otherwise is foolish. It's a multi-billion dollar industry. Of the people I know who are unionized, most of them say they're ineffective. I also don't like being told what to think. One of the reasons why I'd never join one, at least willingly.

 

[JEDI]

but how can non-union members be forced to pay dues alongside union members in the company else lose their jobs?

 

[ussfletcher]

on the other hand, because of the Beacon-Davis act, federal construction jobs are set at union pay even if a non-union company wins the bid.

Its the Davis-Bacon act.

 

[BoomerD]

but how can non-union members be forced to pay dues alongside union members in the company else lose their jobs?

Because, member or not, they get the same wages and benefits that are negotiated by the union for its members.

 

[ussfletcher]

Unions are responsible for the 40 hour week, employer paid health care and pensions. They are resposnible for women having the right to vote, health and safety regulations.
Amongst many other things.

Not saying we wouldn't have some of these things without unions, but without unions we may not have them. Or at least have waited many, many years for them.

Right, and now unions have served their purpose these things are all standard. Now, however unions are a dinosaur they do nothing but perpetuate their management at the cost of their member's jobs. Due to higher wages (to cover union dues/fees) many members have lost their jobs, this increases per worker wage contributions to the union because unions do not downsize their management and overhead as they lose members.

 

[JEDI]

Unions are perhaps the single greatest contributor to the "middle class" of America.

Do you enjoy any of the hard-fought benefits of union labor?

Things like:

paid vacations
sick leave
holiday pay
Social Security
health insurance
safe working conditions
8 hour work day (for most)
pensions (far superior to today's 401K types of retirement plans)
Higher wages/salaries...even for those who hate unions...you still benefit.

All of these benefits and more were earned with the blood, sweat and tears — and sometimes the lives — of those in unions and the labor movement who proudly fought for them so that all workers can enjoy them.


If you hate unions, feel free to refuse any of the benefits that we union folks have forced upon you...
All of these benefits and more were earned with the blood, sweat and tears — and sometimes the lives — of those in unions and the labor movement who proudly fought for them so that all workers can enjoy them.

thats now standard.

what have unions done for the worker bees lately?


edit:
doh..ussfletcher beat me to it

 

[Kanalua]

Unions are perhaps the single greatest contributor to the "middle class" of America.

Do you enjoy any of the hard-fought benefits of union labor?

Things like:

paid vacations
sick leave
holiday pay
Social Security
health insurance
safe working conditions
8 hour work day (for most)
pensions (far superior to today's 401K types of retirement plans)
Higher wages/salaries...even for those who hate unions...you still benefit.

All of these benefits and more were earned with the blood, sweat and tears — and sometimes the lives — of those in unions and the labor movement who proudly fought for them so that all workers can enjoy them.


If you hate unions, feel free to refuse any of the benefits that we union folks have forced upon you...
All of these benefits and more were earned with the blood, sweat and tears — and sometimes the lives — of those in unions and the labor movement who proudly fought for them so that all workers can enjoy them.

You forgot weekends and probably the NFL lockout next year ...and maybe WalMart...

 

[Kanalua]

Because, member or not, they get the same wages and benefits that are negotiated by the union for its members.

They don't pay full dues...it's a big pain for Unions to have to provide all the paperwork to comply with their Beck reporting requirements. A lot of anti-Union groups use Beck objectors to screw with Unions, but i'm sure you know this already...

 

[sjwaste]

Really depends on how you look at it, but unions today have become businesses themselves. Their product is people, but unlike a consulting firm (whose product is also people), they seek to be the only supplier in town. Any time you have a supplier trying to corner the market, that's going to be bad in the economic sense (see monopolistic dead weight loss). As a matter of public policy, some of this is good for the employees. However, unions today, at least the large ones tend to be large employers in and of themselves, and pay good salaries to their own employees. If a union boss makes CEO money, what's the difference between him/his organization and the union staff/their employers? Not much.

Competition between unions for the same talent would be a good thing.

 

[Kanalua]

Union pay my bills...and save the jobs of many workers who were fired and would generally have no recourse without a CBA between the Union and the employer...and pays my bills...

 

[JulesMaximus]

Honestly, the more I hear people blather on about free market blah blah blah the more I think unions and government regulation might have a place in modern society...call me crazy.

 

[BoomerD]

When the "Right to Work (for less)" laws are passed, wages start to go down all across the board. Not only in union companies, but in the competing not-union companies as well. Often, even jobs that aren't traditionally union start to see wage/salary deflation since those companies no longer have to compete with the higher union wages to attract employees.

Do unions have problems? Certainly...most of them do...but, from a working person's standpoint, I'd MUCH rather pay my union dues and make a higher wage and have better benefits than to NOT pay union dues, get about half the wages and no benefits...

Are unions for every job? Hell no. Most "white-collar" jobs probably wouldn't benefit much from a union, but if you're a blue-collar worker...you definitely NEED a union to look out for your interests.

 

[BoomerD]

They don't pay full dues...it's a big pain for Unions to have to provide all the paperwork to comply with their Beck reporting requirements. A lot of anti-Union groups use Beck objectors to screw with Unions, but i'm sure you know this already...

I think this varies by state...You have union members who pay full dues, or "agency employees" who pay an amount that compensates the union for its collective bargaining on the employees' behalf. Generally, the agency fees aren't too much less than actual union dues. One thing I've seen repeatedly in such cases...if an agency employee gets in trouble...the FIRST thing they do is run to their union steward or rep for help...even though they HATE the union...

Unfortunately, in such cases, the union is usually obligated to represent the non-union worker...but...IME, they rarely get as good of representation as the union member...until they join the union.

 

[Marinski]

Anything you say about unions being greedy or corrupt and lazy and what not, the same can be said about white collar non union corporate jobs and the capitalists. Im blue collar and in a union. Do I agree with everything the union does?? No, but there is alot of good things they do, so there is a place for them. I kind of fall in between and can see both sides points of view.

 

[preslove]

OP, that website is put out by the Liberty Fund, which is a right-wing think tank. So, yes, it's anti-union.

When I was in a union the orientation class was hilarious. They tried very hard to indoctrinate people. Lots of misinformation etc. I only joined up so I could get higher wages in the field I wanted to work in and good medical benefits.

You talk like the union had nothing to do with getting you higher wages and good benefits.