The "Economic Stimulus Package"

[sactoking]

Link

Labor: The stimulus bill wastes billions by requiring that labor on funded construction projects be paid a "prevailing," meaning union, wage. Why should our infrastructure be rebuilt under a Jim Crow era law intended to block minorities?

The Depression-era Davis-Bacon Act is applied throughout the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (H.R. 1). The original law, passed in 1931, required federal construction contractors to pay what is determined to be the "prevailing wage" in a given area.

The law was introduced and passed to block wage competition from black construction workers following an Alabama contractor's successful bid on a federal construction project on Long Island in 1927.

At the Department of Labor, two agencies gather information related to wages and labor: the Wage and Labor Division (WHD) as well as the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). It is the WHD that has the job of calculating the prevailing wage under the Davis-Bacon Act.

A 2008 study by Suffolk University and the Beacon Hill Institute found that WHD prevailing wage estimates were 22% higher than the BLS average reported wages paid in various cities. The reason is madness in the WHD's method.

According to the Suffolk study, the structure of the WHD methodology results in lower participation from small and midsize firms, provides an opportunity for unions to dominate the process of reporting wages, and lets as few as 12.5% of survey respondents set wages for the entire universe of workers.

In contrast, the BLS uses the Occupational Employment Survey, which collects wage data from more than 1.2 million establishments. Thus BLS wage estimates rely on a much larger sample that better represents wages that prevail in the labor market.

The application of the Davis-Bacon Act to stimulus projects ensures that stimulus dollars will not go as far as they otherwise could. That will result in fewer people getting jobs while raising the cost of everything we build. According to the Heritage Foundation, Davis-Bacon provisions will drive up construction costs on the $188 billion worth of construction projects in HR 1 by $17 billion.

According to Heritage, WHD's methodology is "unscientific" and relies on "outdated" surveys to produce "inaccurate" information. Heritage describes the BLS as an agency "that accurately estimates wage statistics using scientific methods."

The differences between the two can be significant.

On Long Island, N.Y., for example, market rates for plumbers calculated the BLS way are $29.68 an hour. Davis-Bacon rates calculated by the WHD are $44.75 ? 51% higher.

The infrastructure money in the stimulus could have gone further if we had ignored the WHD's pro-union "prevailing wage" and did a better job of spreading the wealth around.

The stimulus bill was for 787 billion dollars. We were told that we needed it to create jobs and prop up the economy. Yet only about 25% (~200 billion) has been set aside for construction. Now we hear that that $200 billion won't go as far b/c Davis-Bacon has been included.

Seriously, is there any way this is something other than payback to labor unions like AFL-CIO for their large campaign contributions? What could possibly be the reason for mandating that all $200 billion be "prevailing wage" work?

Do we want to create X jobs at a livable wage and get X people off the unemployment rolls or Y jobs at a very comfortable wage and only get Y people off of unemployment (s.t. X > Y)?

Personally, I think we should be working to get as many people working as possible, not working to get as many "normal economy" jobs as possible. (i.e. jobs with pay and benefits on par with what you'd expect in an expanding economy)

 

[XZeroII]

Whatever. It was reported before it was passed that it was never intended to actually help the economy. It's purpose is to restore confidence so that people feel better about the economy and start spending again.

 

[Fern]

Bills are rushed through and not debated for a purposes.

I expect we'll see more of this type stuff once people get a chance to fully understand it.

Edit: I also expect we'll 'Katrina - like' examples of fraud and waste.

Fern

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: sactoking
Link

Labor: The stimulus bill wastes billions by requiring that labor on funded construction projects be paid a "prevailing," meaning union, wage. Why should our infrastructure be rebuilt under a Jim Crow era law intended to block minorities?

The Depression-era Davis-Bacon Act is applied throughout the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (H.R. 1). The original law, passed in 1931, required federal construction contractors to pay what is determined to be the "prevailing wage" in a given area.

The law was introduced and passed to block wage competition from black construction workers following an Alabama contractor's successful bid on a federal construction project on Long Island in 1927.

At the Department of Labor, two agencies gather information related to wages and labor: the Wage and Labor Division (WHD) as well as the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). It is the WHD that has the job of calculating the prevailing wage under the Davis-Bacon Act.

A 2008 study by Suffolk University and the Beacon Hill Institute found that WHD prevailing wage estimates were 22% higher than the BLS average reported wages paid in various cities. The reason is madness in the WHD's method.

According to the Suffolk study, the structure of the WHD methodology results in lower participation from small and midsize firms, provides an opportunity for unions to dominate the process of reporting wages, and lets as few as 12.5% of survey respondents set wages for the entire universe of workers.

In contrast, the BLS uses the Occupational Employment Survey, which collects wage data from more than 1.2 million establishments. Thus BLS wage estimates rely on a much larger sample that better represents wages that prevail in the labor market.

The application of the Davis-Bacon Act to stimulus projects ensures that stimulus dollars will not go as far as they otherwise could. That will result in fewer people getting jobs while raising the cost of everything we build. According to the Heritage Foundation, Davis-Bacon provisions will drive up construction costs on the $188 billion worth of construction projects in HR 1 by $17 billion.

According to Heritage, WHD's methodology is "unscientific" and relies on "outdated" surveys to produce "inaccurate" information. Heritage describes the BLS as an agency "that accurately estimates wage statistics using scientific methods."

The differences between the two can be significant.

On Long Island, N.Y., for example, market rates for plumbers calculated the BLS way are $29.68 an hour. Davis-Bacon rates calculated by the WHD are $44.75 ? 51% higher.

The infrastructure money in the stimulus could have gone further if we had ignored the WHD's pro-union "prevailing wage" and did a better job of spreading the wealth around.

The stimulus bill was for 787 billion dollars. We were told that we needed it to create jobs and prop up the economy. Yet only about 25% (~200 billion) has been set aside for construction. Now we hear that that $200 billion won't go as far b/c Davis-Bacon has been included.

Seriously, is there any way this is something other than payback to labor unions like AFL-CIO for their large campaign contributions? What could possibly be the reason for mandating that all $200 billion be "prevailing wage" work?

Do we want to create X jobs at a livable wage and get X people off the unemployment rolls or Y jobs at a very comfortable wage and only get Y people off of unemployment (s.t. X > Y)?

Personally, I think we should be working to get as many people working as possible, not working to get as many "normal economy" jobs as possible. (i.e. jobs with pay and benefits on par with what you'd expect in an expanding economy)

another goofball Op posting wanting results immediately.
It took 8 years for Bush to screw this country up. what makes you idiots think that it can be fixed overnight>?????

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
another goofball Op posting wanting results immediately.
It took 8 years for Bush to screw this country up. what makes you idiots think that it can be fixed overnight>?????

Ummmm..... learn to read?

Where did I say ANYTHING resembling a complaint about how quickly things were happening?

Nope, I complained about the manner in which the "fix" was being implemented.

What makes you idiots think that everyone who's not 100% for Obama's policies is some sort of right-wing neo-con stormtrooper?

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
another goofball Op posting wanting results immediately.
It took 8 years for Bush to screw this country up. what makes you idiots think that it can be fixed overnight>?????

If the bill was so important it couldn't wait even a day to read the bill, then yes, we demand instant results

That's what's so great about tax cuts, it's as close to fair for everyone as you can get, unbelievably easy to implement, and much much harder to defraud or waste $$.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Whatever. It was reported before it was passed that it was never intended to actually help the economy. It's purpose is to restore confidence so that people feel better about the economy and start spending again.

Yeah. Let's spend more money we don't have. Nothing like having the government provide a subsidy to construction businesses. What happens to the workers once the money runs out? They are unemployed again or we get another round of deficit spending to provide another artificial demand for work?

 

[Jiggz]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: sactoking
Link

Labor: The stimulus bill wastes billions by requiring that labor on funded construction projects be paid a "prevailing," meaning union, wage. Why should our infrastructure be rebuilt under a Jim Crow era law intended to block minorities?

The Depression-era Davis-Bacon Act is applied throughout the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (H.R. 1). The original law, passed in 1931, required federal construction contractors to pay what is determined to be the "prevailing wage" in a given area.

The law was introduced and passed to block wage competition from black construction workers following an Alabama contractor's successful bid on a federal construction project on Long Island in 1927.

At the Department of Labor, two agencies gather information related to wages and labor: the Wage and Labor Division (WHD) as well as the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). It is the WHD that has the job of calculating the prevailing wage under the Davis-Bacon Act.

A 2008 study by Suffolk University and the Beacon Hill Institute found that WHD prevailing wage estimates were 22% higher than the BLS average reported wages paid in various cities. The reason is madness in the WHD's method.

According to the Suffolk study, the structure of the WHD methodology results in lower participation from small and midsize firms, provides an opportunity for unions to dominate the process of reporting wages, and lets as few as 12.5% of survey respondents set wages for the entire universe of workers.

In contrast, the BLS uses the Occupational Employment Survey, which collects wage data from more than 1.2 million establishments. Thus BLS wage estimates rely on a much larger sample that better represents wages that prevail in the labor market.

The application of the Davis-Bacon Act to stimulus projects ensures that stimulus dollars will not go as far as they otherwise could. That will result in fewer people getting jobs while raising the cost of everything we build. According to the Heritage Foundation, Davis-Bacon provisions will drive up construction costs on the $188 billion worth of construction projects in HR 1 by $17 billion.

According to Heritage, WHD's methodology is "unscientific" and relies on "outdated" surveys to produce "inaccurate" information. Heritage describes the BLS as an agency "that accurately estimates wage statistics using scientific methods."

The differences between the two can be significant.

On Long Island, N.Y., for example, market rates for plumbers calculated the BLS way are $29.68 an hour. Davis-Bacon rates calculated by the WHD are $44.75 ? 51% higher.

The infrastructure money in the stimulus could have gone further if we had ignored the WHD's pro-union "prevailing wage" and did a better job of spreading the wealth around.

The stimulus bill was for 787 billion dollars. We were told that we needed it to create jobs and prop up the economy. Yet only about 25% (~200 billion) has been set aside for construction. Now we hear that that $200 billion won't go as far b/c Davis-Bacon has been included.

Seriously, is there any way this is something other than payback to labor unions like AFL-CIO for their large campaign contributions? What could possibly be the reason for mandating that all $200 billion be "prevailing wage" work?

Do we want to create X jobs at a livable wage and get X people off the unemployment rolls or Y jobs at a very comfortable wage and only get Y people off of unemployment (s.t. X > Y)?

Personally, I think we should be working to get as many people working as possible, not working to get as many "normal economy" jobs as possible. (i.e. jobs with pay and benefits on par with what you'd expect in an expanding economy)

another goofball Op posting wanting results immediately.
It took 8 years for Bush to screw this country up. what makes you idiots think that it can be fixed overnight>?????

Damn right! They wanted to pass this bill in less than 24 hours so we expect results in the same time manner! Are we supposed to expect anything different? If so, then they should have spent more than 24 hours to approved it!

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Jiggz
Damn right! They wanted to pass this bill in less than 24 hours so we expect results in the same time manner! Are we supposed to expect anything different? If so, then they should have spent more than 24 hours to approved it!

An idiocy tax would give us a surplus budget tomorrow.

 

[StageLeft]

If the bill was so important it couldn't wait even a day to read the bill, then yes, we demand instant results

THIS

 

[Double Trouble]

This is the largest fleecing of a country in the history of the world. I have no doubt this is one giant "thank you" package for favorite donors and other benefactors (unions and the like). Tucked away nicely in a bill that we "must have immediately without any review" of course. Sad, but then again, we're getting what we deserve since we're the ones who keep putting these clowns at all levels of government.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
This is the largest fleecing of a country in the history of the world. I have no doubt this is one giant "thank you" package for favorite donors and other benefactors (unions and the like). Tucked away nicely in a bill that we "must have immediately without any review" of course. Sad, but then again, we're getting what we deserve since we're the ones who keep putting these clowns at all levels of government.

Like police and firefighters who are now employed and wouldn't be without the cash?

Thanks for your opinion formed on incomplete and false information.

 

[mooseracing]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

If the bill was so important it couldn't wait even a day to read the bill, then yes, we demand instant results

THIS

Yep, and after BHO states in an interview he will give at least 5 days for Him, the American people and other numbnuts in congress to review any bill.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Jiggz
Damn right! They wanted to pass this bill in less than 24 hours so we expect results in the same time manner! Are we supposed to expect anything different? If so, then they should have spent more than 24 hours to approved it!

An idiocy tax would give us a surplus budget tomorrow.

Yes, but that wouldn't really be fair to you Craig. How would you survive on $3/yr?

 

[heyheybooboo]

The first paragraph of your article is a lie:

Labor: The stimulus bill wastes billions by requiring that labor on funded construction projects be paid a "prevailing," meaning union, wage. Why should our infrastructure be rebuilt under a Jim Crow era law intended to block minorities?

A "prevailing" wage is not a Union wage.

I suggest that you and the authors of that article study the Davis-Bacon Act.


Sheesh ... what a bunch of maroons

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
The first paragraph of your article is a lie:

Labor: The stimulus bill wastes billions by requiring that labor on funded construction projects be paid a "prevailing," meaning union, wage. Why should our infrastructure be rebuilt under a Jim Crow era law intended to block minorities?

A "prevailing" wage is not a Union wage.

I suggest that you and the authors of that article study the Davis-Bacon Act.


Sheesh ... what a bunch of maroons

From your very own wiki:

The Act was modified again in 1964 to include fringe benefits in the calculation of prevailing wages.

Prevailing wage is not union wage, but union wage and excessive fringe drives up prevailing wage to the point that it's not representative of true wage and more representative of union.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Whatever. It was reported before it was passed that it was never intended to actually help the economy. It's purpose is to restore confidence so that people feel better about the economy and start spending again.

Holy crap people acutally think like this? :Q

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
This is the largest fleecing of a country in the history of the world. I have no doubt this is one giant "thank you" package for favorite donors and other benefactors (unions and the like). Tucked away nicely in a bill that we "must have immediately without any review" of course. Sad, but then again, we're getting what we deserve since we're the ones who keep putting these clowns at all levels of government.

Like police and firefighters who are now employed and wouldn't be without the cash?

Thanks for your opinion formed on incomplete and false information.

Are you really that ignorant? How about the Teamsters payoff that is sparking the trade war with Mexico? Sure the Democrats say it's about "safety concerns" but that is not backed up by any actual data - except only that the Teamsters enjoy their high pay and no competition.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

probably to prevent fly by nights from putting in extreme lo ball bids in order to win contracts.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Jiggz
Damn right! They wanted to pass this bill in less than 24 hours so we expect results in the same time manner! Are we supposed to expect anything different? If so, then they should have spent more than 24 hours to approved it!

the bill was already 5-6 years late, why waste more time?

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Jiggz
Damn right! They wanted to pass this bill in less than 24 hours so we expect results in the same time manner! Are we supposed to expect anything different? If so, then they should have spent more than 24 hours to approved it!

the bill was already 5-6 years late, why waste more time?

Yeah why wait it's only 100's of billions of dollars

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
another goofball Op posting wanting results immediately.
It took 8 years for Bush to screw this country up. what makes you idiots think that it can be fixed overnight>?????

Ummmm..... learn to read?

Where did I say ANYTHING resembling a complaint about how quickly things were happening?

Nope, I complained about the manner in which the "fix" was being implemented.

What makes you idiots think that everyone who's not 100% for Obama's policies is some sort of right-wing neo-con stormtrooper?

That's the way it works you support dumb-ass ideas without thinking or you are a right wing neo-con.

 

[Stunt]

The stimulus is not intended to be a long term investment in jobs/work...
80% of the US economy depends on the consumer spending, as long as the markets are down and job numbers continue to decline, people will be afraid to spend and compound economic decline. The government stimulus is nothing more than an effort to boost consumer confidence; the number only needs to be big enough to look like a significant amount of cash to get the people spending again.

Think about it, the stimulus is worth $2,500 per person roughly. The average person was borrowing and spending way more than that not too long ago. The government will not bail the economy out, it's the people when they are ready to spend.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Whatever. It was reported before it was passed that it was never intended to actually help the economy. It's purpose is to restore confidence so that people feel better about the economy and start spending again.

Holy crap people acutally think like this? :Q

Yes. There was an article on MSNBC. They said that the amount that the stimulus package would help the economy directly was minimal...close to non-existant. It was all about image.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Whatever. It was reported before it was passed that it was never intended to actually help the economy. It's purpose is to restore confidence so that people feel better about the economy and start spending again.

Holy crap people acutally think like this? :Q

Yes. There was an article on MSNBC. They said that the amount that the stimulus package would help the economy directly was minimal...close to non-existant. It was all about image.

Meaning we shouldnt be doing it. Wasting away billions of our offspring's dollars and possibly getting our credit cards shut off from our outside investors, over "image" is not the right path to take.