The economic effects of the Bush presidency

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Since the 2000 campaign, Republicans have defended their party's policies by saying that by giving more to business and the wealth, by cutting taxes, the economy would be stimulated and that was the best if not the only way to grow the economy which would then benefit the poor, middle and top.

Democrats argued that the Bush policies would result effectively in an upward transfer of wealth - the concentration of wealth would increase, the top would get a bigger share, and the shift of wealth out of everyone else's hands into the wealthy's hands would do more to simply put their name on the title of more resources rather than to offer a good return for everyone else.

Who was right?

Tax cuts are long debunked as a magic wand, with studies showing about a 20 cents on the dollar return. The Financial sector's collapse is well known.

But this report has some facts about how Americans' incomes and the numbers in poverty changed under Bush, putting the Republican claims to the test.

The facts say the Democrats were right and the Republicans were wrong.

On those claims, anyway. If the Republicans had other goals, and those claims were merely a phony sales pitch, that's another story.

Democrats accuse Republicans of serving the interests of the wealthy to an extreme - and by that measure, Republicans did just what they'd want.

Just as was the case in the last great test, when the Clinton 1993 tax increase on the top 2% was predicted by every right-wing commentator to ruin the economy.

Link to article on report

This thread is offered because I think sometimes the facts can have a good effect on people who are not necessarily being too rational on politics.

At some point, they might realize they are mouthing things that are less than true, that they have been fed by the interests' propagandists.

I understand most Republicans will now just spin why the facts are not a problem - but I think it's worth noting how they contradict the earlier claims.

The contradict the basic decency among many Republicans, painting them into a tighter and tighter corner until the truth is clearer.

As long as they can run around claiming that policies for the rich are really policies for the poor, who can complain? Such propaganda needs debunking.

Because this is a democracy and the middle class gets a vote, thanks to the founding fathers, both sides will claim to be good for the milddle class.

But only one side can actually be better for the middle class. Which one is that?

There's plenty of blams for the Democrats, especially under Clinton when they passed some of the things that are hurting the economy globally today.

Some might suspect that the 'dot com bubble' helped Clinton and the big crash hurt Bush in these numbers, but I think the numbers still have the correct message even when those are factored in. They show things that are there outside those things, and across decades of previous presidents too.

So the summary page on the economic experience of average Americans under the past two presidents would look like this:
Under Clinton, the median income increased 14 per cent. Under Bush it declined 4.2 per cent.

Under Clinton the total number of Americans in poverty declined 16.9 per cent; under Bush it increased 26.1 per cent.

Under Clinton the number of children in poverty declined 24.2 per cent; under Bush it increased by 21.4 per cent.

Under Clinton, the number of Americans without health insurance, remained essentially even (down six-tenths of one per cent); under Bush it increased by 20.6 per cent.

 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Some might suspect that the 'dot com bubble' helped Clinton and the big crash hurt Bush in these numbers, but I think the numbers still have the correct message even when those are factored in. They show things that are there outside those things, and across decades of previous presidents too.

You think. Are you an economist? Statistician? Sociologist?
 

JKing106

Platinum Member
Mar 19, 2009
2,193
0
0
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: Craig234
Some might suspect that the 'dot com bubble' helped Clinton and the big crash hurt Bush in these numbers, but I think the numbers still have the correct message even when those are factored in. They show things that are there outside those things, and across decades of previous presidents too.

You think. Are you an economist? Statistician? Sociologist?

Are you anything but blatant ass-kissing apologist?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Unlike Craig234, I spend a good part of my day reading a wide variety of macroeconomic and geopolitical studies. I also review plenty of economic indicators and historical analyses. All of it is good background information when I take decisions.

I glanced at the Atlantic article and found it another manifestation of using cherry picked data (i.e. measuring from a peak) to make a political point, precisely what Craig 234 is doing in the OP - trying to attack his chosen hate group(s.) Rather than moving a reader toward greater clarity, both cloud and divert understanding of complex economic issues as well as cause and effect factors.

But, what else is new? Yawn.

If you also read the commentary to the article you will find a few challenges to the premise and to the interpretation of data, much as most rational people have to Craig's posts on this forum. Should be more.

He has a right to express his hateful, or is that "hate full," opinion, but do not consider that the cited reference serves as any kind of adequate support of his chosen world view.

Can't stay up late tonight (1:30A EST!) to get into a detailed rejoinder as I have a long day scheduled; time enough to tear someone a new one later.

:moon: Nighty night! :moon:
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: PJABBER
blather

What a steamping pile you posted.

You had zero to say in response to the facts. You have no interest in the truth, judging by your lack of any commentary related to the issues. You posted some generic attacking comments, but for all your blather about 'cherry picking' and lies about 'hate', you did not actually say one thing that could be described accurately as fact or logical argument on any specific issue. Garbage.

Just stay out of the thread if you can't do anything but pollute it with blather, go make your own thread wit blather, something you have shown you can do in about each thread.

You are not honest whatsoever - for example, the phrase 'cherry picking' means something other than 'discusses specific topics'. It means that the data is misrepresented with selectivity - like claiming that Obama has talked about nothing but healthcare in every speech, by quoting only those speeches where he does. The phrase has nothing to do with my post and while you toss it out the way a bird drops its poop recklessly, you do not back up the attack with anything.

You are an enemy of the discussion of the topics listed - adding blather and noise to the thread that disrupts the topic. It's not quite trolling, but it's no better.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: PJABBER
blather

What a steamping pile you posted.

Funny, I was about to post the same thing ;)

There is no way to prove or disprove how much a Democrat in power made versus a Republican. There is no way to prove or disprove how much an impact the tech & dot-com bubbles had.

There can be a convincing case made that Democrats were the ones who helped during the 90's. There can be a convincing case made that the tech bubble was the driving force of the 90's. Whichever one you believe is probably largely based on partisan affiliations.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Nice link to an article on the report....but where is the actual report?
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,729
1,020
126
I enjoyed what Craig234 said and understood it. Thanks for the effort.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Funny, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistic, the Bush tax cuts created 8 million new jobs.
Funny, according to the Federal Reserve, the Bush tax cuts created 15 trillion dollars in new wealth.
Funny, according to the IRS, the number of people filing return of 1 million dollars or more increased 95% and taxes paid increased 107%.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Unlike Craig234, I spend a good part of my day reading a wide variety of macroeconomic and geopolitical studies. I also review plenty of economic indicators and historical analyses.

well you must be an expert then.

 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: Patranus
Funny, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistic, the Bush tax cuts created 8 million new jobs.
Funny, according to the Federal Reserve, the Bush tax cuts created 15 trillion dollars in new wealth.
Funny, according to the IRS, the number of people filing return of 1 million dollars or more increased 95% and taxes paid increased 107%.

great president or greatest president?
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
61
So... no fan of Bush here. I thought his $400 billion deficit budgets were the definition of insanity.

Your claim is that his economic policies caused incomes to decline, poverty to increase and caused people to lose their health insurance...

Working under the assumption that the healthier our economy is, the better off we all are; and working under the assumption that the deficit is some kind of indicator of the health of our economy...

Dubbya was running record deficits. I called his spending insane. Obama is looking at deficits that are nearly four times what Bush ran. What is 4*Insane? And how does a completely bankrupt America (we're headed there like a lead balloon) help anyone, much less the people who really need it?

You're trying to point out the Bush failures which is pretty easy to do but right now Obama is making Dubbya look like an economic GENIUS! And the democrats in general are making the republicans look like they knew what they were doing when they had control of congress. (Ver sad indeed) The dems are an epic disaster. Obama reminds me of Slim Pickins riding the bomb all the way to the ground in Dr Strangelove screaming YEE HAWWW all the way down.

My only hope is that I somehow survive the fallout of the Obama presidency and that America wakes up and elects someone other than a card board cut-out of what they think a president should look like.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

You're trying to point out the Bush failures which is pretty easy to do but right now Obama is making Dubbya look like an economic GENIUS!

And the democrats in general are making the republicans look like they knew what they were doing when they had control of congress. (Ver sad indeed)

The dems are an epic disaster.

Obama reminds me of Slim Pickins riding the bomb all the way to the ground in Dr Strangelove screaming YEE HAWWW all the way down.

My only hope is that I somehow survive the fallout of the Obama presidency and that America wakes up and elects someone other than a card board cut-out of what they think a president should look like.

and you think staying with the Republican status quo would be better how? :confused:
 

Skitzer

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2000
4,414
3
81
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
So... no fan of Bush here. I thought his $400 billion deficit budgets were the definition of insanity.

Your claim is that his economic policies caused incomes to decline, poverty to increase and caused people to lose their health insurance...

Working under the assumption that the healthier our economy is, the better off we all are; and working under the assumption that the deficit is some kind of indicator of the health of our economy...

Dubbya was running record deficits. I called his spending insane. Obama is looking at deficits that are nearly four times what Bush ran. What is 4*Insane? And how does a completely bankrupt America (we're headed there like a lead balloon) help anyone, much less the people who really need it?

You're trying to point out the Bush failures which is pretty easy to do but right now Obama is making Dubbya look like an economic GENIUS! And the democrats in general are making the republicans look like they knew what they were doing when they had control of congress. (Ver sad indeed) The dems are an epic disaster. Obama reminds me of Slim Pickins riding the bomb all the way to the ground in Dr Strangelove screaming YEE HAWWW all the way down.

My only hope is that I somehow survive the fallout of the Obama presidency and that America wakes up and elects someone other than a card board cut-out of what they think a president should look like.

Very well said!
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Nevermind, it's not worth the effort.

Oh, and I would take Clinton back in a heartbeat over what we've had for the last 8.75 years, even with a GOP congress. :(
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,734
54,747
136
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
So... no fan of Bush here. I thought his $400 billion deficit budgets were the definition of insanity.

Your claim is that his economic policies caused incomes to decline, poverty to increase and caused people to lose their health insurance...

Working under the assumption that the healthier our economy is, the better off we all are; and working under the assumption that the deficit is some kind of indicator of the health of our economy...

Dubbya was running record deficits. I called his spending insane. Obama is looking at deficits that are nearly four times what Bush ran. What is 4*Insane? And how does a completely bankrupt America (we're headed there like a lead balloon) help anyone, much less the people who really need it?

You're trying to point out the Bush failures which is pretty easy to do but right now Obama is making Dubbya look like an economic GENIUS! And the democrats in general are making the republicans look like they knew what they were doing when they had control of congress. (Ver sad indeed) The dems are an epic disaster. Obama reminds me of Slim Pickins riding the bomb all the way to the ground in Dr Strangelove screaming YEE HAWWW all the way down.

My only hope is that I somehow survive the fallout of the Obama presidency and that America wakes up and elects someone other than a card board cut-out of what they think a president should look like.

Hey look, we found your problem. It's nowhere even remotely close to as simple as that, so the conclusions you're drawing from such a crazy metric will mean exactly zero.

People look at the deficit and try to figure things out from it because it's easy to understand. Unfortunately the nationwide economy is not easy to understand. Attempting to predict one with the other is a fool's errand, and leads to these sorts of posts.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Skitzer
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
So... no fan of Bush here. I thought his $400 billion deficit budgets were the definition of insanity.

Your claim is that his economic policies caused incomes to decline, poverty to increase and caused people to lose their health insurance...

Working under the assumption that the healthier our economy is, the better off we all are; and working under the assumption that the deficit is some kind of indicator of the health of our economy...

Dubbya was running record deficits. I called his spending insane. Obama is looking at deficits that are nearly four times what Bush ran. What is 4*Insane? And how does a completely bankrupt America (we're headed there like a lead balloon) help anyone, much less the people who really need it?

You're trying to point out the Bush failures which is pretty easy to do but right now Obama is making Dubbya look like an economic GENIUS! And the democrats in general are making the republicans look like they knew what they were doing when they had control of congress. (Ver sad indeed) The dems are an epic disaster. Obama reminds me of Slim Pickins riding the bomb all the way to the ground in Dr Strangelove screaming YEE HAWWW all the way down.

My only hope is that I somehow survive the fallout of the Obama presidency and that America wakes up and elects someone other than a card board cut-out of what they think a president should look like.

Very well said!

First, these numbers are by no means the whole story on any president, not anywhere near it. They are some specific areas affected by the policies and economy.

Second, besides you insulting Obama with a meaningless comment, you don't say what *policies* your ugly president would follow that you want, other than 'low deficit' implied.

You don't say a word in condemning Obama's deficits about the systemic mess Bush handed him, making your post basically irrelevant.

There are times like the Great Depression and WWII when the same rules for deficits don't apply.

I oppose big deficits, but recognize that Obama has a very different situation. This isn't the *discretionary* deficit spending of the last few Republicans.

Your whole post is filled with cliched conclusions and not really a shred of substance. Democrats are a 'disaster' - how so?

There are books on how bad the Republicans were with hundreds of specific disasters. The Democrats are far, far, incomporably less bad - I'll be happy to give you some titles.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
What complete and utter stupidity. Your assumptions are not backed up by the data. You're measuring things like the median income increasing under this or that president. That's plain stupidity. There are millions of factors that go into those numbers, and the president is only one of them. You basically assume that the party of the president is the sole factor in determining what happens to the population. Nevermind little things like globalization, technology, environment, world economy, demographics, congressional environment (which party controls the house, the senate etc).

But sure, go ahead and ignore all the useful things and just focus on your partisan hackery, it's not like anyone takes you for anything more than a joke anyway. :laugh:
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
<Stephen Colbert>: Look at all these eggheads with their 'facts' and their 'studies'. Guys like me and Bush? We don't think with our brains, we think with our GUT. And my GUT says Bush is the most successful president in American history. Now i know you liberals are going to say, 'well look at reality, all these studies show the economy did poorly under Bush.' That's the problem with you liberals, we all know reality has a well known liberal bias and can't be trusted.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Why did Rome fall, despite the best intentions of the defenders of Rome?
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Originally posted by: Phokus
<Stephen Colbert>: Look at all these eggheads with their 'facts' and their 'studies'. Guys like me and Bush? We don't think with our brains, we think with our GUT. And my GUT says Bush is the most successful president in American history. Now i know you liberals are going to say, 'well look at reality, all these studies show the economy did poorly under Bush.' That's the problem with you liberals, we all know reality has a well known liberal bias and can't be trusted.

Apparently, you are also too stupid to understand that there might be a wee bit more to what makes "the economy do poorly" during one administration or another than just which party the president belonged to.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Phokus
<Stephen Colbert>: Look at all these eggheads with their 'facts' and their 'studies'. Guys like me and Bush? We don't think with our brains, we think with our GUT. And my GUT says Bush is the most successful president in American history. Now i know you liberals are going to say, 'well look at reality, all these studies show the economy did poorly under Bush.' That's the problem with you liberals, we all know reality has a well known liberal bias and can't be trusted.

Apparently, you are also too stupid to understand that there might be a wee bit more to what makes "the economy do poorly" during one administration or another than just which party the president belonged to.

<conservatives>: "Ronald Reagan SAVED the economy, thank god for tax cuts and trickle down economics, YEEE HAW!" *drools* *continues to worship Reaganonmics even to this day*
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Phokus
<Stephen Colbert>: Look at all these eggheads with their 'facts' and their 'studies'. Guys like me and Bush? We don't think with our brains, we think with our GUT. And my GUT says Bush is the most successful president in American history. Now i know you liberals are going to say, 'well look at reality, all these studies show the economy did poorly under Bush.' That's the problem with you liberals, we all know reality has a well known liberal bias and can't be trusted.

Apparently, you are also too stupid to understand that there might be a wee bit more to what makes "the economy do poorly" during one administration or another than just which party the president belonged to.

Right it takes tax cuts, deficit spending, and loosening regulations which lead to abuse.

2/3 of those are Bush legacies, I'll leave the last to Clinton.

Like it or not Republicans have been championing these very things which have brought us to the brink of ruin. Maybe they should change their platform, their ideas DO NOT WORK.

We've lost nearly a decade of economic growth, doesn't that bother you?