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The "don't be a political hack/dick" thread on COVID-19 and consequences- SOLUTIONS for once if you have them.

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,652
4,065
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No snark or bitching about the Libs, Trump, Pelosi, McConnell, Uncle Jimbo, or economic systems, etc.

Let's play a game like one might at the US Army War College.

The objective is to secure the economy and use existing resources to maintain the civilian population's health, which includes essential needs as well as infrastructure.

Strategy, tactics, logistics, these must be managed. You have finite human resources that may fail over time resulting in attrition, particularly in health care, but everywhere.

What is a solution? That which preserves the status quo as best as possible. You need to optimize the outcome of competing needs, health and bodily welfare by keeping commerce going. You can't eat if you are dead but you are dead if you can't eat so to speak.

Your advantages. Screw DC politics, implementation is another class.

This is war.

We need to know how your plan works, what are it's advantages AND disadvantages are. You need to take into account primary consequences, not blow off reality nor ignore it.

If you can't contain yourself you are a liability in campaign planning and will be asked to leave the room.

Bitching and complaining? The same. Attempt to be functioning intelligent adults.

This is Pearl Harbor boys and girls, fix it.
 
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Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
6,462
2,014
136
What is a solution?

Put Trump in guantanamo and make a leader in charge.
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
6,242
1,784
136
There will be economic damage. You have to ensure that damage is distributed in a way that doesn't lead to people dying or seriously suffering. It's not possible to discuss the topic without talking about 'economic systems', to put that limit on the discussion makes discussion impossible.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
7,619
3,393
146
Step 1) get an actual leader
Step 2) listen to experts
Step 3) Prepare for 6mo of social distancing, if not longer. Keep the lights on, the gas flowing, and food/TP getting delivered. Backburner anything non-essential. Accept that there will be consequences, and that it may take a decade or longer for the economy to 'recover'.
Step 4) Learn from this, and deploy new practices, procedures, and supplies that will mitigate this further when it happens in the future.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,652
4,065
126
There will be economic damage. You have to ensure that damage is distributed in a way that doesn't lead to people dying or seriously suffering. It's not possible to discuss the topic without talking about 'economic systems', to put that limit on the discussion makes discussion impossible.
What I mean is "If we had socialism" or "The Free Market" is the solution. I'm talking about what we have now. One may invoke existing laws up to and including martial law, but "If we were Denmark" stuff is specious.
 

balloonshark

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2008
4,293
721
126
Shut everything down until this is over. If critical services must go on then those people should be screened and have to stay on property to stay healthy until this is over. Hopefully we can use volunteers who are encouraged with government " hazard pay", "disaster pay", "combat pay" or whatever you want to call it. Food should be distributed door to door by national guard to those who need food now. A large chuck of the bailout money should have went to hospitals for critical supplies, facilities and payroll. Money has to also be allocated for the care of the sick instead of prioritizing bailing out wall street.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,652
4,065
126
Step 1) get an actual leader
Step 2) listen to experts
Step 3) Prepare for 6mo of social distancing, if not longer. Keep the lights on, the gas flowing, and food/TP getting delivered. Backburner anything non-essential. Accept that there will be consequences, and that it may take a decade or longer for the economy to 'recover'.
Step 4) Learn from this, and deploy new practices, procedures, and supplies that will mitigate this further when it happens in the future.
Thanks, but I mean something far greater in scope. You are in the hot seat and are charged with coming up with a national working plan. "Keep the lights" on etc is the goal, not the means.

Do it.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
7,619
3,393
146
Thanks, but I mean something far greater in scope. You are in the hot seat and are charged with coming up with a national working plan. "Keep the lights" on etc is the goal, not the means.

Do it.
We're too ill-informed to even comment on that level of detail, unless one of our posters is the head of a multinational logistics team or something.
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,210
1,316
106
1. Immediate lock down of everyone apart from the most critical workers for living. That is (not limited to, but not much beyond):
- Food, production, distribution and supply
- Utilities, power, water, net, fuel
- Medical, be that front line care, production, drug distribution or research
Rationale being to try and reduce the peak demand on healthcare as much as possible and buy time.

Most other workplaces can more or less freeze and the world will not stop turning. Stock market can shut down. It can't continue to plummet if people cannot trade.

2. Ramp up
- production of ventilators
- production of test kits
- test analyses
- retraining of staff
- bringing in volunteers (or workers that have been sacked) to perform contact tracing etc; they could do this from home via VPN & phone.

3. Fire any resources requested at
- antibody tests
- vaccine development
- mitigating drug evaluation

4. Mortgage/rent/loan freeze imposed on banks
- they begged in 2008, payback.
That should buy businesses a bit of time and space to breath

5. Financial support for stressed businesses
- furloughed workers get flat govt wage for the duration, possible re-tasked to contact tracing and admin support as per (2)
- banks ordered to hold off on demand letters

6. When admissions to ICUs have stablised at a level where the health system can cope, then throttle the degree of lockdown as appropriate to keep admissions beneath capacity. This can continue until actions taken in (3) bear results sufficient to localise lockdowns or provide immunisation.

edit: Step 1 could largely have been avoided if leaders across the world had grasped the nettle early Feb and imposed a strict 3 week quarantine on all international travellers from known virus locations. Yeah, might have appeared overkill then to those ignorant of what would happen otherwise, but here - even for a politician - this is a case where reality beats perception.


edit2: I'd advocate blanket free treatment for the virus at all healthcare providers - at a blanket flat fees mandated by govt for each diagnosis/treatment provided. Anyone doesn't like it gets their license revoked.
 
Last edited:

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,652
4,065
126
Shut everything down until this is over. If critical services must go on then those people should be screened and have to stay on property to stay healthy until this is over. Hopefully we can use volunteers who are encouraged with government " hazard pay", "disaster pay", "combat pay" or whatever you want to call it. Food should be distributed door to door by national guard to those who need food now. A large chuck of the bailout money should have went to hospitals for critical supplies, facilities and payroll. Money has to also be allocated for the care of the sick instead of prioritizing bailing out wall street.
Good start. What are the consequences of your actions? If you shut everything down it will be akin to shutting down a ventilator for ten minutes. When you start it up the patient, that is virtually all businesses will be gone with no means to revive them in the foreseeable future. Prioritizing payouts for care is just the thing. National Guard delivering food is great.

But

The workforce for getting food from the fields is going to take a hit assuming that prohibitions against border restrictions is lifted. People will get sick. Who picks the crops and how is the supply chain kept intact from farm to table? Farmers are on the edge financially so a loss of food production, massive shortages and inflation.

Ain't easy which is a main reason for this thread, to illustrate these problems. So limiting your part as a member of the staff, focus on the latter regarding food and consequences.

Edit- this was before your edit. Nice response IMO.
 
Last edited:

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
18,822
496
136
enact very specific guidelines for distancing and cleaning that will allow a greater percentage of the people and economy back to some semblance of normal. Make it granular.
Establish safe working practices to get manufacturing jobs going again.
More money on fast tests. Test and clean.
Put people back to work cleaning up.
Follow King County Metro's lead, and run transit for free all over where they have two door buses.
People come and go from the rear doors and give the driver plenty of distancing.
 

balloonshark

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2008
4,293
721
126
Good start. What are the consequences of your actions? If you shut everything down it will be akin to shutting down a ventilator for ten minutes. When you start it up the patient, that is virtually all businesses will be gone with no means to revive them in the foreseeable future. Prioritizing payouts for care is just the thing. National Guard delivering food is great.

But

The workforce for getting food from the fields is going to take a hit assuming that prohibitions against border restrictions is lifted. People will get sick. Who picks the crops and how is the supply chain kept intact from farm to table? Farmers are on the edge financially so a loss of food production, massive shortages and inflation.

Ain't easy which is a main reason for this thread, to illustrate these problems. So limiting your part as a member of the staff, focus on the latter regarding food and consequences.
How much food is actually grown in the US this time of year? If people need to work the fields they can stay on property like the other critical services.

As far as consequences it's funny how those only affect the 99% while the rest are taken care of by bailouts. That needs to change by letting a few of the big boys go under to send a message. Otherwise every time we have an economic hiccup this pattern is going to be repeated.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,541
2,686
126
Good start. What are the consequences of your actions? If you shut everything down it will be akin to shutting down a ventilator for ten minutes. When you start it up the patient, that is virtually all businesses will be gone with no means to revive them in the foreseeable future. Prioritizing payouts for care is just the thing. National Guard delivering food is great.

But

The workforce for getting food from the fields is going to take a hit assuming that prohibitions against border restrictions is lifted. People will get sick. Who picks the crops and how is the supply chain kept intact from farm to table? Farmers are on the edge financially so a loss of food production, massive shortages and inflation.

Ain't easy which is a main reason for this thread, to illustrate these problems. So limiting your part as a member of the staff, focus on the latter regarding food and consequences.
You can halt Billing. Mortgages, Rent, Utilities, etc. Freeze all activity in the non-Essential Economy. Certain Essential Services/Businesses are going to need financial support, one way to do this, like they have in Denmark, is for all Wages to be Subsidized temporarily. There the Government is Paying 75% of all Wages at this time.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,652
4,065
126
Most other workplaces can more or less freeze and the world will not stop turning
Likely necessary but we haven't look at what happens then. Your barber, restaurant, every little store and shop we know will be closed, bankrupt. All those workers are gone and not getting hired when the virus is gone. Then there are the suppliers which are gone for good (good means for the foreseeable future). That trickles out to everything imaginable. Clothing? Nope. Transportation of goods? What goods?

Half of US workers are unemployed because there are no small businesses. Production/supply shuts down or is severely diminished and big business fails.

Those are real consequences. How do you prevent that?

Edit- I just saw your edit, nice response IMO.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,025
571
126
I think all available resources should be brought to bear in testing as many people as possible as quickly as possible. Then isolate those who test positive.

Until we have a better testing regime, we don't really understand the scope of the problem, and therefore we'll likely do more harm than good.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,541
2,686
126
Likely necessary but we haven't look at what happens then. Your barber, restaurant, every little store and shop we know will be closed, bankrupt. All those workers are gone and not getting hired when the virus is gone. Then there are the suppliers which are gone for good (good means for the foreseeable future). That trickles out to everything imaginable. Clothing? Nope. Transportation of goods? What goods?

Half of US workers are unemployed because there are no small businesses. Production/supply shuts down or is severely diminished and big business fails.

Those are real consequences. How do you prevent that?

Edit- I just saw your edit, nice response IMO.
You don't Prevent it, you Preserve it. See Post 14.
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
8,716
1,693
126
-Enforce lockdown for as long as medical experts deem necessary
-Provide a universal basic income to keep citizens alive while out of work, for the duration of the lockdown plus up to 6 months to give people time to get back to work
-Provide government-funded healthcare to every citizen, to ensure the health of the populace
-Start preparing a massive government-funded jobs program for after the end of the lockdown, to kickstart the recovery. Think "spending trillions on infrastructure". Build some high speed rail. Build some wind turbines. Build some solar panels.
 

ShookKnight

Senior member
Dec 12, 2019
646
654
96
Test everyone. ID who is still negative, and keep them that way.

Commerce, for the purposes of keeping food, medicine and critical equipment produced should be seized. We'll give it all back, once we are safe and we no longer have to worry about the 'highest bidder' factor affecting who lives or dies.

Capital markets frozen. You can't pull money out and you can't dump money in. Again, once we are safe and we no longer have to worry about 'making money' deterring our focus and efforts - no one gets to play Wall Street.

Too much emphasis has been placed on making money off of this. And not enough to ensure the right things (medical supplies, money to live, etc) get to the people who need them.

The people who are hurting are being crushed right now - and, told they should be happy to outright die.

This is unacceptable.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
13,691
1,577
126
Shut down all flights and public transportation for a month.

Stimulus package directed to ensure the market doesn’t go into a panic and also ensure business don’t layoff people...basically plug the economic hole.

Deploy the military, equipped with proper protective equipment, to distribute food in a way such that the disease does not spread. What’s the point of all these measures if people are still congregating in supermarkets.

Setup regional coronavirus triage centers, all suspected cases get sent exclusively to those centers, they also get priority for critical gear and equipment.

Repurpose industrial capacity to push out critical supplies.

Use police to help with contact tracing and to strictly enforce shelter in place rules. That includes religious gatherings.

Fine those who break shelter in place and curfew guidelines.

Federal terrorism charges for anyone who weaponizes the pandemic.

I know you said no politics, but delay all primaries and postpone election to next year.

Start tracing those identified as immune and reinsert them into the economy using a phased approach.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
23,566
8,255
136
Implement the DPA.

Order companies capable to mass produce masks and ventilators. Healthcare workers need protecting first. Ventilators are needed to keep the healthcare system from collapse.

Also a national order. No one will be issued a COVID-19 test unless they meet the CDC qualifications

No more NBA players (still pissed at the Utah Jazz)
No more celebrities
No more politicians
No more rich people

Violations to anyone issuing an unqualified test is jail.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
13,807
2,743
126
1. Immediate lock down of everyone apart from the most critical workers for living. That is (not limited to, but not much beyond):
- Food, production, distribution and supply
- Utilities, power, water, net, fuel
- Medical, be that front line care, production, drug distribution or research
Rationale being to try and reduce the peak demand on healthcare as much as possible and buy time.

Most other workplaces can more or less freeze and the world will not stop turning. Stock market can shut down. It can't continue to plummet if people cannot trade.

2. Ramp up
- production of ventilators
- production of test kits
- test analyses
- retraining of staff
- bringing in volunteers (or workers that have been sacked) to perform contact tracing etc; they could do this from home via VPN & phone.

3. Fire any resources requested at
- antibody tests
- vaccine development
- mitigating drug evaluation

4. Mortgage/rent/loan freeze imposed on banks
- they begged in 2008, payback.
That should buy businesses a bit of time and space to breath

5. Financial support for stressed businesses
- furloughed workers get flat govt wage for the duration, possible re-tasked to contact tracing and admin support as per (2)
- banks ordered to hold off on demand letters

6. When admissions to ICUs have stablised at a level where the health system can cope, then throttle the degree of lockdown as appropriate to keep admissions beneath capacity. This can continue until actions taken in (3) bear results sufficient to localise lockdowns or provide immunisation.

edit: Step 1 could largely have been avoided if leaders across the world had grasped the nettle early Feb and imposed a strict 3 week quarantine on all international travellers from known virus locations. Yeah, might have appeared overkill then to those ignorant of what would happen otherwise, but here - even for a politician - this is a case where reality beats perception.


edit2: I'd advocate blanket free treatment for the virus at all healthcare providers - at a blanket flat fees mandated by govt for each diagnosis/treatment provided. Anyone doesn't like it gets their license revoked.
Number 2 should be dictate, production of PPE (masks, faceshields, smocks, gloves). Because, you can't expose testers. They are running out everywhere because modern business management tells you that you are wasting money if you have anything on your shelves. Business model needs to be updated to account for disasters, which it does NOT.
 

balloonshark

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2008
4,293
721
126
We also should take steps to mitigate future outbreaks and potential problems caused by them. It now very apparent that there are too many people on this planet and not enough resources to sustain them in an emergency. Easy availability to all methods of birth control in all states is a must. Income based taxation on people with children to stop population growth. It's also apparent that people have too many guns and hint at using them at the slightest bit of adversity. We have failed as a society. Hoarding and easy access to murdering fellow citizens should not be option in the future.

We also need to take a hard look at how we produce our meat. You blame China for this mess but we have been pumping antibiotics in poultry, pigs and cattle while they live in tight quarters. Most of the antibiotics produced in the world go to otherwise healthy animals. It's only a matter of time before a super bug is created in this environment that makes Covid-19 look tame.
 

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