The Davis-Bacon act.

[LunarRay]

You just don't walk in and produce a contractors license and bid government jobs..

All require you to be pre-screened over a certain contract dollar amount..
You must bond the job to insure the subs, employees, etc get paid and the job gets done.
To get bonded you have to convince the bonding agency that you have the financial backing for them to issue even the bid bond..
Generally you have to submit prior job information to show you can do what the job entails. This includes resume of the various managers etc..
You have to comply with the various rules.. like % of minority and disabled sub contractors.
You have to be insured to the level required for liability and workers comp... that in itself is not always easy cuz companies like to run bare.. especially subs..

You have to bid the job knowing many others will too and there are always very similar cost structures... This is how you can shine, however.... the more productive the workers are the lower the cost will be at the end of the day.. this is where you have to know your people versus the other people... if you hire cheapo labor you will loose your shirt.. you must have competent people in DB and normal jobs...

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: bctbct
The thing you are not considering is the Davis Bacon automatically eliminates the scum bag contractors.

They know they cant provide cheap inexperienced labor. They know they will have to show benefits being paid.

They know they cant bid against Haliburton, steal the job for 1% less, and make 40% more than a legitimate contractor.

There is no point of them bidding this job and having all the hassle.

Fed work is way over designed, thats why it cost more.

No, it makes it so that poor people don't have a chance to move up on the construction ladder. It make sit so that some young guy who wants to start at the bottom won't get hired because they can't pay him $10 an hour to hammer nails or hold a sign, they have to pay him $20. Therefore, the union contractors hire the already unionized high-wage higher-ups on the ladder to do simple work (which effectively wastes our tax dollars).

If we eliminated the act, there won't be a "race to the bottom" of wages either. Nobody will work construction at $1 an hour.

If you notice, Union thugs lobby QUITE HEAVILY in support of the Bacon-Davis act.

Blanco... you don't see the picture...

there are apprentice and there are journeymen... master craftsmen and etc..
you hire on in union shops at a decent wage.. but you are then trained..
In a non union shop you hire on below that wage with no benefits and you may learn a craft ... usually you do.. but at the end of the day... it is the organized and talented craftsmen who are much more productive and thus provide profit to the company...
Both type companies may earn a profit but actually more often than not the non union shop folds cuz sooner of later they blow a bid big time...
this is true..

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
If the government is paying Union-based companies to do all the work, even the simplest jobs, they are wasting money.

Where's the room for the starting out companies? What about the inital workers? Nobody is going to hire beginning construction workers if they are forced by beaurocrats to pay them over $20 an hour.

Speaking as someone who actually works construction, yes, they will, and do, often.

Really? A starting construction job at $20+ an hour? Sign me up, right now. I'm able bodied. Seriously, call your boss, call anyone you know and sign me up.

Depends on the market, Blanconino... but 'starting' means to me that one has no skill and hires on a basic labor.. a laborer is also a Prevailing wage craft.. They earn over 20$ per hour and if I recall correctly $28.80 for some areas here in So. Cal.... but a helper (also a class but basically an apprentice laborer)... who can only be that for awhile would earn under $20 more like 17$ or so..
What does a laborer do... not much more than a helper... but it is a class... on non DB jobs we pay the same folks 20ish$ per hour.. and the young guys... helpers.. around 13ish$

The Davis-Bacon act eliminates the helper. This is part of my point.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
You just don't walk in and produce a contractors license and bid government jobs..

All require you to be pre-screened over a certain contract dollar amount..
You must bond the job to insure the subs, employees, etc get paid and the job gets done.
To get bonded you have to convince the bonding agency that you have the financial backing for them to issue even the bid bond..
Generally you have to submit prior job information to show you can do what the job entails. This includes resume of the various managers etc..
You have to comply with the various rules.. like % of minority and disabled sub contractors.
You have to be insured to the level required for liability and workers comp... that in itself is not always easy cuz companies like to run bare.. especially subs..

You have to bid the job knowing many others will too and there are always very similar cost structures... This is how you can shine, however.... the more productive the workers are the lower the cost will be at the end of the day.. this is where you have to know your people versus the other people... if you hire cheapo labor you will loose your shirt.. you must have competent people in DB and normal jobs...

You must have competent people in the free market too. If your company hires cheap, shoddy, electricians, you will build crappy buildings, thus losing work. Pay for a better electrician, build a better reputation.

I understand submitting resumes and work experience, but for the government to say that you must pay your workers X amount is ridiculous. Good work is automatically rewarded in the free markets. Good electricians will be payed better.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
If the government is paying Union-based companies to do all the work, even the simplest jobs, they are wasting money.

Where's the room for the starting out companies? What about the inital workers? Nobody is going to hire beginning construction workers if they are forced by beaurocrats to pay them over $20 an hour.

Speaking as someone who actually works construction, yes, they will, and do, often.

Really? A starting construction job at $20+ an hour? Sign me up, right now. I'm able bodied. Seriously, call your boss, call anyone you know and sign me up.

Depends on the market, Blanconino... but 'starting' means to me that one has no skill and hires on a basic labor.. a laborer is also a Prevailing wage craft.. They earn over 20$ per hour and if I recall correctly $28.80 for some areas here in So. Cal.... but a helper (also a class but basically an apprentice laborer)... who can only be that for awhile would earn under $20 more like 17$ or so..
What does a laborer do... not much more than a helper... but it is a class... on non DB jobs we pay the same folks 20ish$ per hour.. and the young guys... helpers.. around 13ish$

The Davis-Bacon act eliminates the helper. This is part of my point.

It don't .. that is my point..
there are apprentice rates for apprentice craftsmen...

Even for the class titled 'Laborer'... they have a sub class titled 'helper'... that is the apprentice to a laborer

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: LunarRay
You just don't walk in and produce a contractors license and bid government jobs..

All require you to be pre-screened over a certain contract dollar amount..
You must bond the job to insure the subs, employees, etc get paid and the job gets done.
To get bonded you have to convince the bonding agency that you have the financial backing for them to issue even the bid bond..
Generally you have to submit prior job information to show you can do what the job entails. This includes resume of the various managers etc..
You have to comply with the various rules.. like % of minority and disabled sub contractors.
You have to be insured to the level required for liability and workers comp... that in itself is not always easy cuz companies like to run bare.. especially subs..

You have to bid the job knowing many others will too and there are always very similar cost structures... This is how you can shine, however.... the more productive the workers are the lower the cost will be at the end of the day.. this is where you have to know your people versus the other people... if you hire cheapo labor you will loose your shirt.. you must have competent people in DB and normal jobs...

You must have competent people in the free market too. If your company hires cheap, shoddy, electricians, you will build crappy buildings, thus losing work. Pay for a better electrician, build a better reputation.

I understand submitting resumes and work experience, but for the government to say that you must pay your workers X amount is ridiculous. Good work is automatically rewarded in the free markets. Good electricians will be payed better.

A Craftsman in any trade will be paid pretty close to union scale.. you won't get them to work for you other wise.... it is the not so craftsman that works often in non union shops and does so for much less money cuz that is what he is worth...
Companies don't just do Government work.. there are lots of commercial work as well.. and you don't get far or last long with incompetent workers.. they cost you money in the long run..

The government says...
it is ok to be a non union shop... but they are gonna insure that the work is compensated at the same rate.. and the rate chosen is union scale for the area.. it protects the union shops and the workers of non union shops...
The governments have an obligation to have the work done by competent workers and actually the folks who are able to be non union and qualify for bidding most often have very good craftsmen and although they may earn a bit less than their unionized counterparts they are generally just as good.. The difference is mainly found when a contractor in say San Diego does work in Los Angeles.. the prevailing wage rates are a few dollars more up north.. so that protects the LA area contrators against San Diego area Contractors.. etc etc..

edit.. there are many more LA contracting companies bidding on San Diego work than visa versa.. as i see it anyhow..

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: LunarRay
You just don't walk in and produce a contractors license and bid government jobs..

All require you to be pre-screened over a certain contract dollar amount..
You must bond the job to insure the subs, employees, etc get paid and the job gets done.
To get bonded you have to convince the bonding agency that you have the financial backing for them to issue even the bid bond..
Generally you have to submit prior job information to show you can do what the job entails. This includes resume of the various managers etc..
You have to comply with the various rules.. like % of minority and disabled sub contractors.
You have to be insured to the level required for liability and workers comp... that in itself is not always easy cuz companies like to run bare.. especially subs..

You have to bid the job knowing many others will too and there are always very similar cost structures... This is how you can shine, however.... the more productive the workers are the lower the cost will be at the end of the day.. this is where you have to know your people versus the other people... if you hire cheapo labor you will loose your shirt.. you must have competent people in DB and normal jobs...

You must have competent people in the free market too. If your company hires cheap, shoddy, electricians, you will build crappy buildings, thus losing work. Pay for a better electrician, build a better reputation.

I understand submitting resumes and work experience, but for the government to say that you must pay your workers X amount is ridiculous. Good work is automatically rewarded in the free markets. Good electricians will be payed better.

A Craftsman in any trade will be paid pretty close to union scale.. you won't get them to work for you other wise.... it is the not so craftsman that works often in non union shops and does so for much less money cuz that is what he is worth...
Companies don't just do Government work.. there are lots of commercial work as well.. and you don't get far or last long with incompetent workers.. they cost you money in the long run..

The government says...
it is ok to be a non union shop... but they are gonna insure that the work is compensated at the same rate.. and the rate chosen is union scale for the area.. it protects the union shops and the workers of non union shops...
The governments have an obligation to have the work done by competent workers and actually the folks who are able to be non union and qualify for bidding most often have very good craftsmen and although they may earn a bit less than their unionized counterparts they are generally just as good.. The difference is mainly found when a contractor in say San Diego does work in Los Angeles.. the prevailing wage rates are a few dollars more up north.. so that protects the LA area contrators against San Diego area Contractors.. etc etc..

edit.. there are many more LA contracting companies bidding on San Diego work than visa versa.. as i see it anyhow..

BINGO! Since Union shops are already on the same scale as government, who's going to have the easier time with the bids?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: LunarRay
You just don't walk in and produce a contractors license and bid government jobs..

All require you to be pre-screened over a certain contract dollar amount..
You must bond the job to insure the subs, employees, etc get paid and the job gets done.
To get bonded you have to convince the bonding agency that you have the financial backing for them to issue even the bid bond..
Generally you have to submit prior job information to show you can do what the job entails. This includes resume of the various managers etc..
You have to comply with the various rules.. like % of minority and disabled sub contractors.
You have to be insured to the level required for liability and workers comp... that in itself is not always easy cuz companies like to run bare.. especially subs..

You have to bid the job knowing many others will too and there are always very similar cost structures... This is how you can shine, however.... the more productive the workers are the lower the cost will be at the end of the day.. this is where you have to know your people versus the other people... if you hire cheapo labor you will loose your shirt.. you must have competent people in DB and normal jobs...

You must have competent people in the free market too. If your company hires cheap, shoddy, electricians, you will build crappy buildings, thus losing work. Pay for a better electrician, build a better reputation.

I understand submitting resumes and work experience, but for the government to say that you must pay your workers X amount is ridiculous. Good work is automatically rewarded in the free markets. Good electricians will be payed better.

A Craftsman in any trade will be paid pretty close to union scale.. you won't get them to work for you other wise.... it is the not so craftsman that works often in non union shops and does so for much less money cuz that is what he is worth...
Companies don't just do Government work.. there are lots of commercial work as well.. and you don't get far or last long with incompetent workers.. they cost you money in the long run..

The government says...
it is ok to be a non union shop... but they are gonna insure that the work is compensated at the same rate.. and the rate chosen is union scale for the area.. it protects the union shops and the workers of non union shops...
The governments have an obligation to have the work done by competent workers and actually the folks who are able to be non union and qualify for bidding most often have very good craftsmen and although they may earn a bit less than their unionized counterparts they are generally just as good.. The difference is mainly found when a contractor in say San Diego does work in Los Angeles.. the prevailing wage rates are a few dollars more up north.. so that protects the LA area contrators against San Diego area Contractors.. etc etc..

edit.. there are many more LA contracting companies bidding on San Diego work than visa versa.. as i see it anyhow..

BINGO! Since Union shops are already on the same scale as government, who's going to have the easier time with the bids?

The company with the best productivity on the same labor dollar rate will make the most money, Ceteris Paribus.

Again, Government contracting's use of Prevailing wage is only part of the picture.. You postulate why have it at all then.. Since both union and non union shops will be almost equal in the skilled area of the craftsmen in companies otherwise able to do the work and the dollar per hour delta is not that much... That makes sense upon first blush..

But, it insures the unions are protected.. as are the non union worker at least in goverment contracts. There was a need for the law.. once upon a time and there still is.. Union busting was an Employers favorite way to fill his pockets.. at the expense of the worker..

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: LunarRay
You just don't walk in and produce a contractors license and bid government jobs..

All require you to be pre-screened over a certain contract dollar amount..
You must bond the job to insure the subs, employees, etc get paid and the job gets done.
To get bonded you have to convince the bonding agency that you have the financial backing for them to issue even the bid bond..
Generally you have to submit prior job information to show you can do what the job entails. This includes resume of the various managers etc..
You have to comply with the various rules.. like % of minority and disabled sub contractors.
You have to be insured to the level required for liability and workers comp... that in itself is not always easy cuz companies like to run bare.. especially subs..

You have to bid the job knowing many others will too and there are always very similar cost structures... This is how you can shine, however.... the more productive the workers are the lower the cost will be at the end of the day.. this is where you have to know your people versus the other people... if you hire cheapo labor you will loose your shirt.. you must have competent people in DB and normal jobs...

You must have competent people in the free market too. If your company hires cheap, shoddy, electricians, you will build crappy buildings, thus losing work. Pay for a better electrician, build a better reputation.

I understand submitting resumes and work experience, but for the government to say that you must pay your workers X amount is ridiculous. Good work is automatically rewarded in the free markets. Good electricians will be payed better.

A Craftsman in any trade will be paid pretty close to union scale.. you won't get them to work for you other wise.... it is the not so craftsman that works often in non union shops and does so for much less money cuz that is what he is worth...
Companies don't just do Government work.. there are lots of commercial work as well.. and you don't get far or last long with incompetent workers.. they cost you money in the long run..

The government says...
it is ok to be a non union shop... but they are gonna insure that the work is compensated at the same rate.. and the rate chosen is union scale for the area.. it protects the union shops and the workers of non union shops...
The governments have an obligation to have the work done by competent workers and actually the folks who are able to be non union and qualify for bidding most often have very good craftsmen and although they may earn a bit less than their unionized counterparts they are generally just as good.. The difference is mainly found when a contractor in say San Diego does work in Los Angeles.. the prevailing wage rates are a few dollars more up north.. so that protects the LA area contrators against San Diego area Contractors.. etc etc..

edit.. there are many more LA contracting companies bidding on San Diego work than visa versa.. as i see it anyhow..

BINGO! Since Union shops are already on the same scale as government, who's going to have the easier time with the bids?

The company with the best productivity on the same labor dollar rate will make the most money, Ceteris Paribus.

Again, Government contracting's use of Prevailing wage is only part of the picture.. You postulate why have it at all then.. Since both union and non union shops will be almost equal in the skilled area of the craftsmen in companies otherwise able to do the work and the dollar per hour delta is not that much... That makes sense upon first blush..

But, it insures the unions are protected.. as are the non union worker at least in goverment contracts. There was a need for the law.. once upon a time and there still is.. Union busting was an Employers favorite way to fill his pockets.. at the expense of the worker..

And it unfairly does precisely that

 

[bctbct]

Any prevailing wage jobs I have been involved with a apprentice make his percentage of the prevailing wage i.e. 75% of $18.

Say you have a large company who targets a 20 million dollar job. He accepts all low bidders (he may get 100s of bids from all over). Job starts, subs suck, wont man the job, faulty work, spends all his time shuffling paper back and forth with RIFs and change orders, delays the project for years blaming it on archs. engineers, blah blah blah.

The GC just marks up all the extra costs, doesnt compete on time, tax payers lose, ****** contractor wins.

There is no requirement for union in Davis Bacon, the idea is to hire a GC that typically pays well for competent experienced employees at the premium wage. This GC is also going to subcontract to a competent company that has good business practices.

Successful companies like this have built their companies on good solid business decisions, low ball bidders are fly by night and in it for the short term profit regardless of reputation. Some peoples careers are one company name after another chasing work around the country doing one shotty job after another until their reputation puts them under, then, repeat.....

Lower bids should always be scrutinized more than high bids.