The dangers of "clean coal" and how the use of this term is Orwellian

[charrison]

It's just like clean diesel, it's a dirty lie. Natural gas ftw.

You gotta drill to get it. And this admin appears to be against that in general.

 

[charrison]

Natural gas per definition is fossile, if it's not it's called biogas and THAT would be the most clean fuel while Natural gas is about as clean as oil.

Natural gas is much cleaner than oil when burned. Very practical to do combined cycle with natural gas and get >60% efficiency.

 

[Darwin333]

Quite true. Solar at the moment is only practical if someone else (like the taxpayer) pays for part of it, but the technology is always improving and best of all it's usually point of use. When solar cells become economically feasible most homes and many small businesses could provide most of their own daytime power and even feed power back into the grid to power businesses (like manufacturing) that cannot meet their energy needs with point-of-use solar.

The stress point for most electrical grids is at a midsummer afternoon; generation and grid capacity have to be sized for this load. All point-of-use generation helps this by reducing peak demand, but right now only solar is practical in anything more than a few situations. If we could provide more point-of-use solar installations then afternoon energy needs drop to closer to non-peak energy needs. Thus we need less central generation, which means we can choose the cleanest form of energy generation and retire dirtier and less efficient generation, and we need less aluminum to distribute the same amount of net energy usage. Conservation helps in the same way.

Our biggest technological needs at the moment are not clean coal or biofuels, but cheaper and more effective solar cells and more nuclear generation.

We are getting out of my realm of expertise but the way I understand it is without some sort of modern grid all the solar in the world won't reduce the need for the same baseline generation we have now. If the grid doesn't know how much power is available from solar/wind/etc to send elsewhere it has to be prepared to generate that power on demand which usually means the central power plants are running like there was 0 solar, wind, etc...

Its sort of like distributed computing. It doesn't work at all if there is a very specific timeline and the server doesn't know who is doing what and what has already been done. At least the solar panels will still be there when we do finally get a new grid though.

 

[thestain]

We are getting out of my realm of expertise but the way I understand it is without some sort of modern grid all the solar in the world won't reduce the need for the same baseline generation we have now. If the grid doesn't know how much power is available from solar/wind/etc to send elsewhere it has to be prepared to generate that power on demand which usually means the central power plants are running like there was 0 solar, wind, etc...

Its sort of like distributed computing. It doesn't work at all if there is a very specific timeline and the server doesn't know who is doing what and what has already been done. At least the solar panels will still be there when we do finally get a new grid though.

The grid should have been a top priority of our elected officials, but instead the more they say they are going to change things the more they don't.

and.. when is Obama going to make that speech he was supposed to make last week supporting replacing aging coal burning plants with natural gas?

 

[QuantumPion]

Natural gas is much cleaner than oil when burned. Very practical to do combined cycle with natural gas and get >60% efficiency.

Yeah the only way natural gas could be considered dirty is if you mistakenly think CO2 is pollution.

 

[ElFenix]

I think the problem is regarding tying up more money in an industry that is considered transitional today?

Natrual gas or oil are equal, and natural gas is NOT an alternative fuel, again, i think there is some confusion regarding natural gas and biogas.

i was making clear that natural gas is not an alternative fuel by expressly exempting it. well, at least the fossil natural gas that the US has 700 billion barrels equivalent of.

 

[soccerballtux]

if we move to Liquid Thorium reactors all our problems will be solved...

 

[Matthiasa]

Just felt like pointing out that the production of solar panels isn't anything but clean. I recall a lecturer of mine stating that he would rather live basically under a coal plant, then within miles of a semiconductor plant due to how harmful the stuff they use is. Solar being clean is merely an illusion, since both its production, and decommissioning (recycling) is extremely toxic. Just look on youtube for what happens with most tech recycling...

 

[Darwin333]

The grid should have been a top priority of our elected officials, but instead the more they say they are going to change things the more they don't.

and.. when is Obama going to make that speech he was supposed to make last week supporting replacing aging coal burning plants with natural gas?

I agree, like I said, I think the vast majority of the stimulus bill should have been upgrading our grid. Throw in a tax break to buy American mats and it creates real jobs right now AND we have a tangible asset that we desperately need to show for the mountain of debt.

 

[Darwin333]

Just felt like pointing out that the production of solar panels isn't anything but clean. I recall a lecturer of mine stating that he would rather live basically under a coal plant, then within miles of a semiconductor plant due to how harmful the stuff they use is. Solar being clean is merely an illusion, since both its production, and decommissioning (recycling) is extremely toxic. Just look on youtube for what happens with most tech recycling...

Do you know what the average lifespan of a solar panel is?

 

[Hacp]

Do you know what the average lifespan of a solar panel is?

Isn't the half-life like 30 years?

 

[Darwin333]

Isn't the half-life like 30 years?

Some of the first solar panels ever made are still in use today. Any decent solar panel you have installed on your home comes with a 25 year power generation warranty. You might have to replace the inverter but the panels will still be generating 80-90% of the rated power in 25-30 years.

Solar panels have no moving parts to break or wear down so they last a long time, waste from them is the last thing we should be concerned with.

 

[bobsmith1492]

Some of the first solar panels ever made are still in use today. Any decent solar panel you have installed on your home comes with a 25 year power generation warranty. You might have to replace the inverter but the panels will still be generating 80-90% of the rated power in 25-30 years.

Solar panels have no moving parts to break or wear down so they last a long time, waste from them is the last thing we should be concerned with.

As long as you clean them and there are no hail storms or tornadoes!

 

[Zorkorist]

Removed from Politics,

Nuclear energy is where it is at.

Simple, Clear, Concise.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Someone up there asked what is wrong with using fossil fuels for energy...

AFAIK, fossil fules are instrumental in producing plastics.

If we use them up, then the plastic industry goes good-bye.

-John

 

[charrison]

Yeah the only way natural gas could be considered dirty is if you mistakenly think CO2 is pollution.

Even if you do that, it still generated a fraction of the c02 that coal would to generate the same energy.

 

[Zorkorist]

Never the less, we cook coal.

Clean (haha) coal.

We put them on trains, that burn coal... er I mean Diesel.

Trains, that have killed far more people than Chernobyl.

All in the sake of cheap energy.

When Nuclear Power, boils water, and emits steam.

-John

 

[Acanthus]

They just blow the tops off of mountains in west virginia to get that coal. Mining it is in no way clean. Destroys local ecosystems and pollutes and blocks streams and local water supplies.

Their slurry is fantastic too, read up on that.

 

[werepossum]

We are getting out of my realm of expertise but the way I understand it is without some sort of modern grid all the solar in the world won't reduce the need for the same baseline generation we have now. If the grid doesn't know how much power is available from solar/wind/etc to send elsewhere it has to be prepared to generate that power on demand which usually means the central power plants are running like there was 0 solar, wind, etc...

Its sort of like distributed computing. It doesn't work at all if there is a very specific timeline and the server doesn't know who is doing what and what has already been done. At least the solar panels will still be there when we do finally get a new grid though.

That's not quite correct. People tend to think of our existing grid as just a bunch of aluminum strung around the country. Instead, sophisticated computers monitor such variables as voltage, current, and temperature at myriad points. People then monitor those values and increase or decrease output of generators as needed, including bringing new generation on line or dropping generation off line as needed to maintain the voltage, and also routing power (via remote-controlled switches) to avoid overloading any wires or switches. This is quite complicated because every source of power has different characteristics - cost per MWH, cost for start-up, time for start-up, and especially generation characteristics. For instance, natural gas fired turbines start much more quickly than does nuclear but has a higher cost per MWH. (Most nuclear generation costs are fixed; fuel consumption itself isn't that large a percentage.) So we actually have a form of smart grid now.

Both the grid infrastructure and the total amount of generation are fixed by the total maximum demand. That is, much more power is required on a sunny August afternoon than on an August night (or any other time.) At any given time, much of our generation sits idle because its electricity isn't needed. Point-of-use generation like solar reduce the maximum demand and usage in three ways. First, by generating power locally at peak afternoon periods which doesn't need to travel across the grid, the absolute maximum ampacity of the grid and our generation capability can be reduced, because they are sized for this peak demand. Second, non-consumptive point-of-use generation like solar also feeds out to other nearby customers when it is producing more than is locally needed, such as weekends for commercial installations. This allows consumptive centralized generation to be used less. And third, reduced demand also allows us to drop the least efficient (or least clean) forms of centralized generation. Demand generation is typically the dirtiest form of generation simply because it makes more sense to devote scarce pollution remediation dollars on the forms of generation that operate for the longest period of time - you get more bang for your buck by retrofitting a coal plant which generates twenty hours a day than one that generates only four hours a day, during peak periods.

 

[Matthiasa]

Some of the first solar panels ever made are still in use today. Any decent solar panel you have installed on your home comes with a 25 year power generation warranty. You might have to replace the inverter but the panels will still be generating 80-90% of the rated power in 25-30 years.

Solar panels have no moving parts to break or wear down so they last a long time, waste from them is the last thing we should be concerned with.

Until you realize how many solar panels,and how much needed you would need to equal a single coal power plant.

 

[Patranus]

...Obama Administration has chosen the dirtiest fuel source other than nuclear to move us into a "cleaner" energy future?

You are an idiot.