The Conundrum of the #MeToo Movement

[Perknose]

. . . In a nutshell: Tom Brokaw

Tom Brokaw Is Where #BelieveWomen Runs Into #NotAllMen

‘Believe all women’ is the mantra. But last week, 65 female supporters of Tom Brokaw said well, don’t believe these two particular women. So do we or don’t we?

This is the way the pendulum of society, the zeitgeist of popular opinion, tends to wildly swing, before hopefully coming to rest in some sane and fair center.

Women have gotten the short end of the stick -- often in a private orifice and without their permission -- for far too long. Now, the pendulum has begun to swing in the opposite direction and there will be some good men unfairly accused. But . . . which ones? Who do we believe, and why?

The path to true social progress and reform -- equality of opportunity and equality of personal treatment for all -- has always been a maddeningly slow and fitful one. Just look at the Civil Rights movement. More than 150 years after the end of slavery, "driving while black" is still a thing.

I believe the arc of history favors the progressive movement of equality and inclusion . . . in the long run. But the whole damn process is unfairly rife in the short term with winners and losers.

Life.

It's messy.

Ignorance.

It has one hell of a half life.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yup

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think the notion of believing all $group is dangerous, period. Mass generalizations like that are exactly what bring about inequality, in one way or another.

 

[UglyCasanova]

We do believe them, but I question the tactics of public humiliation and instant guilt in the court of public opinion though. Right or wrong it needs to be remembered that lives are being ruined without any sort of due process. Maybe that’s the only way I dunno, but we shouldn’t lose sight of it. I have no reason to think they are lying, but is Tom Brokaw going in for a kiss 20+ years ago something the media should be covering? They are culpable in spreading the spectacle just as much as anyone.

 

[trenchfoot]

IMO, we plod along with social reforms in large part because we have folks who like things just the way they are and just the way they were and would like to keep things that way because it's simply to their advantage.

One of the most influential factors in regard to resistance to changes in the mores and folkways we live with is (dare I say) religion. followed by this chiseled in stone "thingy" about the principle of male dominion over the female with all of the consequences that follow.

This back and forth push that goes on where equality of sexes is fought over in the way of wages and promotions and in the actual perception of who dominates over the other are other points of contention that to me will always be with us even if laws are created to resolve those problems.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yup, I’m keeping my mouth shut of all things #metoo, not my place and there are definitely Women out there where I have said things like:
Let me see your ass
Or
Lift your skirt a bit
Or
Reaching out near a boob to see if she steps forward

Never happened in a work context but it has happened at parties and clubs at the time it seemed appropriate but who am I to say that now.

 

[tygeezy]

The lunatics like mattress girl and other women who falsely cried rape and sexual assault do a huge disservice to all the women that have legitimately been assaulted and raped and never got their justice. You really can't say how many honest men are being caught in the crossfire, but we know it's happening, and third wave feminism doesn't seem to care about those men because they are willing to sacrifice good men for their cause; which is utterly repulsive.

 

[tygeezy]

We do believe them, but I question the tactics of public humiliation and instant guilt in the court of public opinion though. Right or wrong it needs to be remembered that lives are being ruined without any sort of due process. Maybe that’s the only way I dunno, but we shouldn’t lose sight of it. I have no reason to think they are lying, but is Tom Brokaw going in for a kiss 20+ years ago something the media should be covering? They are culpable in spreading the spectacle just as much as anyone.

I read something where guys dating now are afraid of doing anything that can get them in hot water which ruins intimacy. I'm glad i'm not in the dating scene anymore. Nothing sexier than asking before you can hug or kiss someone.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I don’t buy that. Go on a date, have a few beers, NEVER DATE A COWORKER, and nothing to worry about. I do think employers are skipping women over though because of this.

 

[Darwin333]

Yup, I’m keeping my mouth shut of all things #metoo, not my place and there are definitely Women out there where I have said things like:
Let me see your ass
Or
Lift your skirt a bit

Well if you don't ask then how are you supposed to ever get anywhere?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Well if you don't ask then how are you supposed to ever get anywhere?

Kind of the point, I learned that is how to do it. Women generally like dominant men. It’s just where is the line and where will that line be?

 

[Zorba]

Well if you don't ask then how are you supposed to ever get anywhere?

No problem until you ask a girl if you can beat off in front of her

 

[tygeezy]

No problem until you ask a girl if you can beat off in front of her

I can never look at plants the same way ever again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Darwin333]

No problem until you ask a girl if you can beat off in front of her

Wait, since when weren't we allowed to do that?

 

[Commodus]

The lunatics like mattress girl and other women who falsely cried rape and sexual assault do a huge disservice to all the women that have legitimately been assaulted and raped and never got their justice. You really can't say how many honest men are being caught in the crossfire, but we know it's happening, and third wave feminism doesn't seem to care about those men because they are willing to sacrifice good men for their cause; which is utterly repulsive.

This started out well enough, but it quickly devolved into the classic MRA tripe about false rape accusations and how the feminists are the 'real' danger. This paragraph can basically be reduced to "stop talking about women. Talk about men. Only the men."

Like it or not, the reality is that most sexual assault and harassment is perpetrated by men, and frequently it's because they're conditioned to believe they're entitled to women's bodies. This doesn't mean you never rule out the possibility of false accusations, but don't dwell on them and make them a larger problem than they really are.

 

[Commodus]

We do believe them, but I question the tactics of public humiliation and instant guilt in the court of public opinion though. Right or wrong it needs to be remembered that lives are being ruined without any sort of due process. Maybe that’s the only way I dunno, but we shouldn’t lose sight of it. I have no reason to think they are lying, but is Tom Brokaw going in for a kiss 20+ years ago something the media should be covering? They are culpable in spreading the spectacle just as much as anyone.

There's a happy middle ground. Do check the evidence, and how the accused responds. At the same time, I really, really don't like those guys (and they're almost always guys) who insist on overwhelming evidence, or waiting for a court verdict, before making any kind of pronouncement on someone's behavior. If there are multiple accusers saying the same thing, or the accused's response is very weaselly, I'm inclined to believe the accusers.

It still boggles the mind that some men were insisting that we make no pronouncements on Cosby right up until his conviction.

 

[blankslate]

The path to true social progress and reform -- equality of opportunity and equality of personal treatment for all -- has always been a maddeningly slow and fitful one. Just look at the Civil Rights movement. More than 150 years after the end of slavery, "driving while black" is still a thing.

I believe the arc of history favors the progressive movement of equality and inclusion . . . in the long run. But the whole damn process is unfairly rife in the short term with winners and losers.

Here is a rather long discussion of the #metoo movement that came up when Joe Roe interviewed a couple of evolutionary biologists (interesting viewpoints from people with such training imo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYJFgyqs0sM&t=80m29s

They are Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein.

Weinstein was the professor caught up in the Evergreen college controversy when all white people were asked or told or strongly suggested to (I haven't really read up too much on the situation) take a day away from the campus as a mirror event to the day when all black students and faculty stayed off the campus for a day.
As I recall the entire thing ended up almost going to court but ended up with a settlement.

I think it's a very interesting conversation on the issue because it touches on the biological reality of the question while also being nuanced. For example they both say when there is a Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby situation then it's pretty much just a formality to wait for a court case but an instance like the Sen. Franken situation is more murky and not as clear cut as the two former examples.

There is the question of false accusations being brought up... interestingly more by the female professor than either Joe or Prof. Weinstein. to support her position there was a tweet that suggested it would be a good idea to accuse Bernie Sanders of inappropriate behavior... I'm not sure if it was a joke or not but even joking about it raises eyebrows from me.

https://lawandcrime.com/exclusive/a...sely-accuse-bernie-sanders-of-sexual-assault/

according to the story most replies to the tweet were negative (thankfully).


But all of this does bring up an issue with #metoo where do you draw the line of belief. Some cases are no brainers in that you realize that with people like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby there is only a megamillion winners odds of those guys being innocent but then there are less clear-cut cases like Sen. Franken.



__________

 

[Victorian Gray]

Here is a rather long discussion of the #metoo movement that came up when Joe Roe interviewed a couple of evolutionary biologists (interesting viewpoints from people with such training imo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYJFgyqs0sM&t=80m29s

They are Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein.

Weinstein was the professor caught up in the Evergreen college controversy when all white people were asked or told or strongly suggested to (I haven't really read up too much on the situation) take a day away from the campus as a mirror event to the day when all black students and faculty stayed off the campus for a day.
As I recall the entire thing ended up almost going to court but ended up with a settlement.

I think it's a very interesting conversation on the issue because it touches on the biological reality of the question while also being nuanced. For example they both say when there is a Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby situation then it's pretty much just a formality to wait for a court case but an instance like the Sen. Franken situation is more murky and not as clear cut as the two former examples.

There is the question of false accusations being brought up... interestingly more by the female professor than either Joe or Prof. Weinstein. to support her position there was a tweet that suggested it would be a good idea to accuse Bernie Sanders of inappropriate behavior... I'm not sure if it was a joke or not but even joking about it raises eyebrows from me.

https://lawandcrime.com/exclusive/a...sely-accuse-bernie-sanders-of-sexual-assault/

according to the story most replies to the tweet were negative (thankfully).


But all of this does bring up an issue with #metoo where do you draw the line of belief. Some cases are no brainers in that you realize that with people like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby there is only a megamillion winners odds of those guys being innocent but then there are less clear-cut cases like Sen. Franken.



__________

Poor Al. Those 8 women must all be liars because he's one of the 'good guys'.

 

[dali71]

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f76_1323277426

 

[blankslate]

Poor Al. Those 8 women must all be liars because he's one of the 'good guys'.

You can try to compare Al Franken's case with either that of Weinstein or Cosby. But the differences are stark and do warrant different reactions.

I'd have preferred letting the Congressional hearing happen and then go from there based on the findings.

http://kstp.com/news/survey-franken-job-approval-plummets-many-say-he-should-resign/4678569/
the poll showed that while many thought Sen. Franken should resign without question there was also a large contingent that wanted to wait for a congressional hearling and a smaller minority that thought that Al Franken should stay in office.

While you disagree I don't think that having a Senate hearing would've harmed Al Franken's accusers (and possibly victims) to anywhere near the degree that Weinstein's or Cosby's experienced while being a more prudent step than just ostracizing Franken as Cosby and Weinstein (imo deservedly considering the sheer number of witnesses who came forward against them both and the severity of the charges) were.


_______

 

[GagHalfrunt]

This is news to you? The whole "he said, she said" thing has been at the center of EVERY sexual harassment charge since the dawn of time. There were probably male trilobites abusing their power and there probably angry female trilobites who falsely accused others. WTF has changed with #MeToo? We have a whole lot more men being accused and we have a whole lot more people trying to defend those men by claiming the accusations are false and we still have no reliable way to determine who's guilty and who is the target of somebody looking for a quick and quiet settlement.

 

[Victorian Gray]

You can try to compare Al Franken's case with either that of Weinstein or Cosby. But the differences are stark and do warrant different reactions.

I'd have preferred letting the Congressional hearing happen and then go from there based on the findings.

http://kstp.com/news/survey-franken-job-approval-plummets-many-say-he-should-resign/4678569/
the poll showed that while many thought Sen. Franken should resign without question there was also a large contingent that wanted to wait for a congressional hearling and a smaller minority that thought that Al Franken should stay in office.

While you disagree I don't think that having a Senate hearing would've harmed Al Franken's accusers (and possibly victims) to anywhere near the degree that Weinstein's or Cosby's experienced while being a more prudent step than just ostracizing Franken as Cosby and Weinstein (imo deservedly considering the sheer number of witnesses who came forward against them both and the severity of the charges) were.


_______

He didn't rape anyone like Weinstein. Wow! What a great guy. Just misunderstood.

• Leeann Tweeden, a radio news anchor, says Franken groped and forcibly kissed her during a USO tour in 2006, before the former comedian was a senator. She says Franken "aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth" when the pair rehearsed a skit that featured a kiss. A photo also surfaced showing Franken looking at a camera while pretending to grab Tweeden's breasts as she was sleeping while clothed. The senator apologized for the photo but said he remembered the skit incident differently.
• Lindsay Menz says Franken grabbed her buttocks when the pair posed for a photo at the Minnesota State Fair in 2010. Franken later said he did not remember taking the picture but "felt badly" that Menz felt disrespected.
• Two other unidentified women told HuffPost that Franken grabbed their buttocks at separate events in 2007 and 2008. One of the women says Franken suggested that he and she should go to the bathroom together. Franken said he did not remember the events and denied asking anyone to visit the bathroom with him.
• Stephanie Kemplin, an Army veteran, says Franken put his hand on her breast during a USO tour in 2003. In a statement following that accusation, Franken's office said he has not "intentionally engage in" the "kind of conduct" described.
• A woman described as a "former elected official in New England" told the Jezebel website that Franken tried to give her a "wet, open-mouthed kiss" during an event in 2006. The senator has not appeared to respond specifically to the allegation.
• An unnamed former Democratic congressional aide told Politico that the senator tried to forcibly kiss her after he taped a radio show in 2006. She says she avoided the kiss, then heard Franken say "it's my right as an entertainer." Franken called the allegation "categorically not true."
• Tina Dupuy writes in The Atlantic that Franken put his hand around her waist while the pair posed for a photo and squeezed "at least twice" during an event in 2009. The senator has not specifically responded to that allegation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/07/al-franken-news-list-of-sexual-misconduct-allegations.html

 

[Ackmed]

It's more than two women.

It is funny though, that certain people wait until its a person that they like, and is on their "side", to bring up the fact that innocent people are being accused. The mere mention will get someone fired, or lose an election. Funny how some are deemed guilty by the left, with zero facts to back up anything, then when one of their own gets accused, innocent! More hypocrisy.

 

[blankslate]

He didn't rape anyone like Weinstein. Wow! What a great guy. Just misunderstood.

• Leeann Tweeden, a radio news anchor, says Franken groped and forcibly kissed her during a USO tour in 2006, before the former comedian was a senator. She says Franken "aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth" when the pair rehearsed a skit that featured a kiss. A photo also surfaced showing Franken looking at a camera while pretending to grab Tweeden's breasts as she was sleeping while clothed. The senator apologized for the photo but said he remembered the skit incident differently.
• Lindsay Menz says Franken grabbed her buttocks when the pair posed for a photo at the Minnesota State Fair in 2010. Franken later said he did not remember taking the picture but "felt badly" that Menz felt disrespected.
• Two other unidentified women told HuffPost that Franken grabbed their buttocks at separate events in 2007 and 2008. One of the women says Franken suggested that he and she should go to the bathroom together. Franken said he did not remember the events and denied asking anyone to visit the bathroom with him.
• Stephanie Kemplin, an Army veteran, says Franken put his hand on her breast during a USO tour in 2003. In a statement following that accusation, Franken's office said he has not "intentionally engage in" the "kind of conduct" described.
• A woman described as a "former elected official in New England" told the Jezebel website that Franken tried to give her a "wet, open-mouthed kiss" during an event in 2006. The senator has not appeared to respond specifically to the allegation.
• An unnamed former Democratic congressional aide told Politico that the senator tried to forcibly kiss her after he taped a radio show in 2006. She says she avoided the kiss, then heard Franken say "it's my right as an entertainer." Franken called the allegation "categorically not true."
• Tina Dupuy writes in The Atlantic that Franken put his hand around her waist while the pair posed for a photo and squeezed "at least twice" during an event in 2009. The senator has not specifically responded to that allegation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/07/al-franken-news-list-of-sexual-misconduct-allegations.html

Your sarcasm is noted however there is still a gulf between what Senator Franken is accused of and the examples of Weinstein and Cosby.

The Senate hearings were warranted and very well may have resulted in his leaving the Senate anyway. Outside of the mountains of evidence in some cases where the accused is accused of crimes beyond the pale as in Cosby's case and the sheer number of accusers in Weinstein's case."
I'd still err on the side of waiting for the hearing in the Senate.


__________

 

[OutHouse]

the reality is that most sexual assault and harassment is perpetrated by men, and frequently it's because they're conditioned to believe they're entitled to women's bodies

unless you are a female teacher and see your 7th grade males as a opportunity for some hot naughty action.

where the #stopteachersrapingstudents movement.