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The conservative side should just declare victory on same-sex marriage

glenn1

glenn1

Lifer
Big SCOTUS rulings on DOMA and Proposition 8 this week. And as a libertarian who thinks both were good decisions, I'm completely baffled why conservatives are treating this as a loss for their side. You morons, it's not only good for your side, it happened almost completely on your terms. Conservatism won the day, if you're willing to accept the victory.

Think about it, before the big push for Same Sex Marriage, the LGBT community was a socially marginalized and ostracized group. Very few were willing to be "out of the closet," and those were typically those with the most outlier-type personality traits. Thus the "face" of the gay movement were those engaging in the most brazenly libertine culture paradigms, flouting social norms and engaging in truly offensive moral behavior. Not without reason, "respectable" society heterosexuals recoiled at this subset of the gay population.

Then along comes the concept of gay rights. And amazingly, the avenue which they decide to use to push for their rights is marriage. And just like that, the main "public face" of the LGBT community becomes ones that is adopting, or better yet fighting for exactly the type of "family values" behaviors championed by the conservative side. The public perception begins to change from "anonymous naked men engaging in public sex and scaring our children" to be instead "my nice suburban neighbors, who are well-behaved, working professionals, and keep up their house nicer than mine." Aside from gays outright converting to heterosexuality, people seeking same-sex marriages are EXACTLY the kind of people you would want as your base. Hell, they're demonstrating the power of "family values" better than almost anyone else you could pick.
 
Your reasoning is sound, from a libertarian perspective. If you're a religious conservative, you don't want public perception of gays to improve, because you believe it is inherently immoral behavior. The old stereotypes for gays are much preferred for them.

Anyway, a series of rulings that ends an unfair but deeply rooted form of discrimination is a victory for everyone, or at least, it should be viewed that way.
 
glenn1 said:
Big SCOTUS rulings on DOMA and Proposition 8 this week. And as a libertarian who thinks both were good decisions, I'm completely baffled why conservatives are treating this as a loss for their side. You morons, it's not only good for your side, it happened almost completely on your terms. Conservatism won the day, if you're willing to accept the victory.

Think about it, before the big push for Same Sex Marriage, the LGBT community was a socially marginalized and ostracized group. Very few were willing to be "out of the closet," and those were typically those with the most outlier-type personality traits. Thus the "face" of the gay movement were those engaging in the most brazenly libertine culture paradigms, flouting social norms and engaging in truly offensive moral behavior. Not without reason, "respectable" society heterosexuals recoiled at this subset of the gay population.

Then along comes the concept of gay rights. And amazingly, the avenue which they decide to use to push for their rights is marriage. And just like that, the main "public face" of the LGBT community becomes ones that is adopting, or better yet fighting for exactly the type of "family values" behaviors championed by the conservative side. The public perception begins to change from "anonymous naked men engaging in public sex and scaring our children" to be instead "my nice suburban neighbors, who are well-behaved, working professionals, and keep up their house nicer than mine." Aside from gays outright converting to heterosexuality, people seeking same-sex marriages are EXACTLY the kind of people you would want as your base. Hell, they're demonstrating the power of "family values" better than almost anyone else you could pick.
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Checking sarcasm meter....
 
woolfe9998 said:
Your reasoning is sound, from a libertarian perspective. If you're a religious conservative, you don't want public perception of gays to improve, because you believe it is inherently immoral behavior. The old stereotypes for gays are much preferred for them.

Anyway, a series of rulings that ends an unfair but deeply rooted form of discrimination is a victory for everyone, or at least, it should be viewed that way.
Click to expand...

In an ideal world the court would have separated the legal construct that we currently refer to as marriage from the religious ceremony.

Of course, that wouldn't have made any special interest group happy.
 
woolfe9998 said:
Your reasoning is sound, from a libertarian perspective. If you're a religious conservative, you don't want public perception of gays to improve, because you believe it is inherently immoral behavior. The old stereotypes for gays are much preferred for them.

Anyway, a series of rulings that ends an unfair but deeply rooted form of discrimination is a victory for everyone, or at least, it should be viewed that way.
Click to expand...

I'm religious also (attending Methodist due to wife's preference, but definitely with a very wide Unitarian/Universalist streak) and I truly don't get the "gays are inherently immoral" angle.

UberNeuman said:
Checking sarcasm meter....
Click to expand...

No sarcasm. Naive, perhaps, but as I stated before conservative views sometimes baffle me.
 
like I posted in the other thread. Republicans should use this ruling as a get out of jail free card. Focus on fiscal issues and drop the shackles of most social issues. I'm sure there are plenty of gays who stuck with the Dem party simply because the gay issue was the most important thing to them.
 
michal1980 said:
like I posted in the other thread. Republicans should use this ruling as a get out of jail free card. Focus on fiscal issues and drop the shackles of most social issues. I'm sure there are plenty of gays who stuck with the Dem party simply because the gay issue was the most important thing to them.
Click to expand...

As a fiscal conservative and social liberal, I'd like to see this. Let adults do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and let's get the economy back on track. I can't be the only one.
 
Chaotic42 said:
As a fiscal conservative and social liberal, I'd like to see this. Let adults do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and let's get the economy back on track. I can't be the only one.
Click to expand...
Soon you will be one of the only ones. Blue dog democrats like you are a dying breed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dog_Coalition. They, like me who sometimes identifies as one, have been slowly turning into left-leaning libertarians.
 
glenn1 said:
Conservatism won the day, if you're willing to accept the victory.
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I have been saying something very similar. The rulings mean: more marriages, less taxation (that was the whole basis of one of the two court cases), more individual freedoms, less federal intrusion on your rights, and a shift from federal power to state power. Every single one of those things is what conservatives claim to want.
 
I personally know a few gays that are extremely upset with the ruling. They feel gays are being led like lambs to the slater into becoming soccer moms and SUV owners. They wouldn't consider getting married if someone put a gun to their head. Marriage is a straight thing, for them, and the reason they fled that type of straight suburbia hell in the first place.
Why would two gay men want to become the new American gothic poster?
Seems they feel gay is a lifestyle unique to itself, and for them is in danger.
They also feel its the lesbians pushing the entire issue of equality, and has been all along because lesbians wish to become some accepted heterosexual mother figure family unit, minus the males.
Their pretty upset about all this push for what? Forced into living like their mom and dad?
They have no desire with relating to straight society, and want to keep it that way.

Two long term gay partner friends of mine were both once married to women and both have disowned grown kids from those marriages.
Their angle is why the hell would we want to return to that nightmare of a lifestyle?
They love their leather, drag, glory holes and sexual freedom.
 
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glenn1 said:
Big SCOTUS rulings on DOMA and Proposition 8 this week. And as a libertarian who thinks both were good decisions, I'm completely baffled why conservatives are treating this as a loss for their side. You morons, it's not only good for your side, it happened almost completely on your terms. Conservatism won the day, if you're willing to accept the victory.

Think about it, before the big push for Same Sex Marriage, the LGBT community was a socially marginalized and ostracized group. Very few were willing to be "out of the closet," and those were typically those with the most outlier-type personality traits. Thus the "face" of the gay movement were those engaging in the most brazenly libertine culture paradigms, flouting social norms and engaging in truly offensive moral behavior. Not without reason, "respectable" society heterosexuals recoiled at this subset of the gay population.

Then along comes the concept of gay rights. And amazingly, the avenue which they decide to use to push for their rights is marriage. And just like that, the main "public face" of the LGBT community becomes ones that is adopting, or better yet fighting for exactly the type of "family values" behaviors championed by the conservative side. The public perception begins to change from "anonymous naked men engaging in public sex and scaring our children" to be instead "my nice suburban neighbors, who are well-behaved, working professionals, and keep up their house nicer than mine." Aside from gays outright converting to heterosexuality, people seeking same-sex marriages are EXACTLY the kind of people you would want as your base. Hell, they're demonstrating the power of "family values" better than almost anyone else you could pick.
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Good post OP. I checked my sarcasm meter, and I think it's sincere on your part, and I mostly agree, because I happen to be a conservative-ISH gay myself, and so is my mate. We usually keep to ourselves and mind our own business. Which is why I finally came out online on this issue in the SCOTUS-DOMA topic.

BTW, I did not see any news or politics article linked in your post. I thought that was a requirement of the OP starting a topic here?
 
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The government should get out of marriage completely. They shouldn't be telling people who they can and can't marry.

This is the government staying out of the way and small government. Conservatives need to be worried about much more important issues such as our spending and debt.
 
sportage said:
I personally know a few gays that are extremely upset with the ruling. They feel gays are being led like lambs to the slater into becoming soccer moms and SUV owners. They wouldn't consider getting married if someone put a gun to their head. Marriage is a straight thing, for them, and the reason they fled that type of straight suburbia hell in the first place.
Why would two gay men want to become the new American gothic poster?
Seems they feel gay is a lifestyle unique to itself, and for them is in danger.
They also feel its the lesbians pushing the entire issue of equality, and has been all along because lesbians wish to become some accepted heterosexual mother figure family unit, minus the males.
Their pretty upset about all this push for what? Forced into living like their mom and dad?
They have no desire with relating to straight society, and want to keep it that way.
Click to expand...

And most lesbos I know are also batshit crazy, sad but true. But I can understand why they would push for it more than the men do, since nothing is stopping them from procreating all they want to.

In fact, I have had lesbos who wanted to have my baby and I refused to provide one. Some wanted to raise it themselves, and the others wanted me to have one myself because they thought I would make a great dad, which I already did once already, thanks but no thanks. So the fallacy that gays cannot have or do not want kids is just another red herring the political fundies like to bandy about who know nothing about that which they speak and ridicule gays over.
 
glenn1 said:
Big SCOTUS rulings on DOMA and Proposition 8 this week. And as a libertarian who thinks both were good decisions, I'm completely baffled why conservatives are treating this as a loss for their side. You morons, it's not only good for your side, it happened almost completely on your terms. Conservatism won the day, if you're willing to accept the victory.

Think about it, before the big push for Same Sex Marriage, the LGBT community was a socially marginalized and ostracized group. Very few were willing to be "out of the closet," and those were typically those with the most outlier-type personality traits. Thus the "face" of the gay movement were those engaging in the most brazenly libertine culture paradigms, flouting social norms and engaging in truly offensive moral behavior. Not without reason, "respectable" society heterosexuals recoiled at this subset of the gay population.

Then along comes the concept of gay rights. And amazingly, the avenue which they decide to use to push for their rights is marriage. And just like that, the main "public face" of the LGBT community becomes ones that is adopting, or better yet fighting for exactly the type of "family values" behaviors championed by the conservative side. The public perception begins to change from "anonymous naked men engaging in public sex and scaring our children" to be instead "my nice suburban neighbors, who are well-behaved, working professionals, and keep up their house nicer than mine." Aside from gays outright converting to heterosexuality, people seeking same-sex marriages are EXACTLY the kind of people you would want as your base. Hell, they're demonstrating the power of "family values" better than almost anyone else you could pick.
Click to expand...

you fail to recognize that most republicans vote conservative because of social issues, not because of fiscal. Thats not going to change any time soon.
 
SlickSnake said:
And most lesbos I know are also batshit crazy, sad but true. But I can understand why they would push for it more than the men do, since nothing is stopping them from procreating all they want to.

In fact, I have had lesbos who wanted to have my baby and I refused to provide one. Some wanted to raise it themselves, and the others wanted me to have one myself because they thought I would make a great dad, which I already did once already, thanks but no thanks. So the fallacy that gays cannot have or do not want kids is just another red herring the political fundies like to bandy about who know nothing about that which they speak and ridicule gays over.
Click to expand...

2 married lesbians cannot have kid together; try attending a non-Texas sex ed class maybe. A lesbian trying to have kid with you, a straight man, is not an argument for SSM, it is an argument for her to marry you 😀.

As to the OP: How is turning marriage into nothing more than a benefits grabbing circle-jerk a victory for anyone? And especially for conservatives?
 
TerryMathews said:
In an ideal world the court would have separated the legal construct that we currently refer to as marriage from the religious ceremony.

Of course, that wouldn't have made any special interest group happy.
Click to expand...

It would also have been predicated on the liberal lie that marriage is basically a religious ceremony that the government had no business intruding in.

And it would have been insane. Separating the legal and SOCIAL(not religious) aspects of marriage would be like a court ruling you have a right to own guns, but not bullets.
 
TerryMathews said:
In an ideal world the court would have separated the legal construct that we currently refer to as marriage from the religious ceremony.

Of course, that wouldn't have made any special interest group happy.
Click to expand...

It already is. You can already marry in a chruch without legally marrying or legally marry without attending a religious ceremony.
 
The religious conservatives will never accept gays. They will still teach to discriminate against them. There children will grow up thinking the gay person is going to hell. There is nothing the media and or society will do that will change their viewpoints. If others start to discriminate against the religious for having their views, they will just hide it more, but the feelings will still be there.

God to the religious is like a constitution. The rules just can't be broken. There is a higher power at work that you can't cross. It's more important than what the media say or the rest of society thinks.

All in all, there are 2 different sides of a fence. Just because one side is currently in favor doesn't change the fact that there is a division, and that will never change.
 
shadow9d9 said:
Yes, they should declare victory for losing...
Click to expand...

Basically, yes. The gutting of social security act doesn't sound good. But calling it the "saving" of social security sounds downright heroic. Same deal with "the rights forfeiture for government protection" act. Calling it the "Patriot Act" sounds better, patriotically giving up your hard won rights. Doing one thing and calling it another is all the rage lately. 🙂
 
While I agree with you (OP) in principle, I'm honestly not sure it will ever happen. One of the many problems the Right has at the moment is their reliance on a very socially conservative voting bloc. The emotional appeal issues are what gets them to the polls (gays, god, guns, abortion) and they risk watering down their brand and creating apathy amongst their most reliable bloc if they start to back down on Gay Marriage.

Problem is, in cases like this, those votes they are reliant on are on the wrong side of history. Which is why many think the GOP is going to have problems going forward.
 
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