The complete lowdown on cars, let's end the madness!

[teriba]

Domestics:
Most domestics are produced with price in mind. Not all, but most. The interiors are generally of lower quality and the technology used is usually old school. There are a lot of people who like this, no, some even love this. They are muscle car people and they will always find a home in American cars. These are great cars and have their place. The easiest way to drag is to get a big displacement American car.

Problems:
Pontiac throws grey plastic on everything
A lot of the styling cues involve adding bulges, ripples, etc.
Large heavy cars

Asian:
Their emphasis is style. Interiors are beautiful, build quality is great, image is distinctive (hard lines). The engines are made for city driving. They do well in small spaces, because of their light weight and small size.

Problems:
Low torque
Not much variety (mostly small cars)

European:
Their emphasis is on drivability. They are designed for either long highway cruises (BMW 7 series, Mercedes S Class) or for jetting around town (Renault Clio, VW Polo, Lupo, Golf). Too some their styling is bland to others it is clean. Suspension is excellent at high speeds (Autobahn).

Problems:
Low torque compared to domestic
High weight compared to Asian

It all depends on what kind of car you want. IMHO too many people are motivated by image and will be found driving a riced out sports car or a truck/SUV with no intentions of using it off road or for towing.

 

[trulfe]

you forgot about the recycled low quality sheet metal that goes into many asian imports, compared to domestic and european.

 

[vi edit]

Also, I wouldn't exactly say that many German cars are lacking in the torque department. It's just that many of them use DOHC engines vs. SOHC engines. The result is a decent amount of torque but at a higher RPM level. SOHC on the other hand, produces a decent amount down low, but runs out of steam quickly.

Also, I would say that German cars generally come equiped with more gadgets and gizmos than domestic or Japanese cars.

 

[boyRacer]

This will not end the madness because theres always someone out there who doesn't share your opinion.

 

[pulse8]

<< let's end the madness >>



hahahahaha...suuuuuuure....

 

[OS]

Talk about over generalization, hehe

 

[Viper GTS]

My ideal daily driver

Viper GTS

 

[Atrail]

That is an interesting choice!

 

[trulfe]

<< Also, I wouldn't exactly say that many German cars are lacking in the torque department. It's just that many of them use DOHC engines vs. SOHC engines. The result is a decent amount of torque but at a higher RPM level. SOHC on the other hand, produces a decent amount down low, but runs out of steam quickly.

Also, I would say that German cars generally come equiped with more gadgets and gizmos than domestic or Japanese cars. >>




wait, youre kidding right. German cars are known to have more low end torque. it is the japanese imports that have the high reving torque that doesnt kick in for the most part. S2000 example 240hp with a mere 153lb or torque while the stock Audi A4 has only 170 hp with 166lb of torque.

 

[boyRacer]

My daily driver... i seriously would drive this thing everyday and cook some rice with it along the way.

 

[vi edit]

trufle, there's a big difference between non-existant torque (read: Japanese) and torque available higher up the tach (read: German).

I never said that they were lacking, I just said that they were available at a different place than American cast iron pushrods.

I drive a GTi w/ the VR6. That 2.8L engine puts out a whopping 180 or so pounds of torque.

Look at the torque peaks of a "typical" GM 6 cyl and 8 cyl and compare them to a "typical" German engine. More times than not, the German car will hit their peak at a higher RPM due to the design of the engine. It's especially apparent in the 8 cylinder engines of each country.

 

[OS]

<< there's a big difference between non-existant torque (read: Japanese) >>



hey, that's not true. My Corolla clone puts out more torque/liter than a z28. Though that still puts me at a piddly 125 lb-ft. Kind of funny how my bleh car puts out more torque than a civic si.



<< I drive a GTi w/ the VR6. That 2.8L engine puts out a whopping 180 or so pounds of torque. >>



hahaha, 180 lb-ft is hardly whopping, especially given the size. My parents have a clunker two liter volvo that puts out more than that.

 

[trulfe]

<< trufle, there's a big difference between non-existant torque (read: Japanese) and torque available higher up the tach (read: German).

I never said that they were lacking, I just said that they were available at a different place than American cast iron pushrods.

I drive a GTi w/ the VR6. That 2.8L engine puts out a whopping 180 or so pounds of torque. >>




I drive the 1.8T engine and i get plenty of low end torque stock, when you factor in a APR chips boost it is incredible. unless you are comparing daily drivers like the A4, passat, certain BMW's to american muscle cars which are defintely in two different classes, then the fact is German cars puts out substantial amounts of low end torque even compared to domestics.

 

[Migroo]

OK the Torque issue:

First of all, the number of camshafts, and then valves per cylinder, have nothing directly to do with torque.

Taking engines that are the SAME capacity:

Torquey engine:
Each piston is relatively small in width, and has a long stroke through the cylinder. There is a long con-rod. Because of the long throw, there is a high mechanical advantage on the crank, and so there is a lot of (low down) torque, however, due to the physical distance that the cylinder must travel, the high engine speeds associated with cars from Honda for example are not possible.

Not - so - torquey:
Each piston is wide, and has a short stroke. Con rods are short. This means that there is relatively low mechanical advantage on the crank, yet the engine can achieve higher speed due to the fact that the pistons have less distance to travel.


NOW: why is it therefore, that low torque engines are generally DOHC, and high torque engines are SOHC?

Well, high torque engine features a thin cylinder... therefore the space that the valve has to fill is vertical - the fuel/air mix only needs to spread down, not really sideways... so one intake valve is enough.

low torque (relatively) engine - wide pistons, so one valve wouldnt really be efficient in filling the wide and short capacity of the cyllinder. Therefore DOHC was introduced, meaning 4 valves (2 intake, 2 exhaust) so there are 2 entry points for the air/fuel mix, and they can fill the wide capacity better.

Does this clear the issue up?

 

[vi edit]

<< hahaha, 180 lb-ft is hardly whopping, especially given the size. My parents have a clunker two liter volvo that puts out more than that. >>



That's not too bad for a N/A gasoline engine only pushing 2.8L. Your parent's Volvo probably has a turbo in it. With a turbo, I could easily be pushing 300 pounds of torque in my car (baring problems with compression)

 

[S0me1X]

<< The complete lowdown on cars, let's end the madness! >>

... get a Vespa

 

[Viperoni]

<< My ideal daily driver

Viper GTS >>



NICE

 

[OS]

<< That's not too bad for a N/A gasoline engine only pushing 2.8L. >>



It's not bad, but it's hardly whopping.




<< Your parent's Volvo probably has a turbo in it. >>



haha, touche. But the car is almost 15 years old.


edit, look what I found;

2k+2 V6 accord specs



<< Base Engine Size: 3 liters
Base Engine Type: V6
Horsepower: 200 hp @ 5500 rpm
Torque: 195 ft-lbs. @ 4700 rpm >>



195/3=65

Your car;

180/2.8=64.29

A V6 accord makes more torque per liter than your VR6. Ha on you and torqueless japanese cars.

 

[vi edit]

Well, in my stupidity, I confused the torque and HP peaks. That's what I get for not eating in the last 10 hours...can't concentrate.

I think we've squared away the torque thing, with Migroo's very informative post.

Oh, and OS, compared to other cars in my cars class, which include Integras and Celicas, my car does have a "whopping" amount of torque

 

[vi edit]

In all fairness the engine in my car is based off of a 10 year old (if not older) design as well.

They are brining out a revised VR6 this fall boasting 201HP and torque around 190 lbs.

Still not bad considering they are doing it with .2 less liters than Honda

 

[OS]

<< In all fairness the engine in my car is based off of a 10 year old (if not older) design as well.

They are brining out a revised VR6 this fall boasting 201HP and torque around 190 lbs.

Still not bad considering they are doing it with .2 less liters than Honda >>




Yeah I know, I'm just giving you a hard time. Don't mind me.

 

[Migroo]

<< with Migroo's very informative post. >>



Hopefully I didnt mix myself up.. its 01:30 here *yawn*. You get the idea of what I'm on about though - hopefully...

FOR example: I drive a Civic, yes I know they are common in the US, but they are a relatively rare sight on the UKs roads, so you can forgive me .

1.4 litre
SOHC
90hp @ 6200rpm
Peak torque (not sure of the figure) @ 4600rpm

My engine bucks the trend slightly, as its a very revvy motor with pitiful low down torque. I'm really unhappy that I really have to sacrifice MPG in order to get moving. However I cant complain at 4000+ revs, as it really accelerates.

What pisses me off, is that a VW style engine will get a lot of low down torque, yet you wont get a lot more output if you really go for it (mine is the opposite, not much lower down, but you DO get a LOT MORE at high revs). SO VW engines get more torque (acceleration basically) for the same amount of fuel! (ie: at a given number of low revs...)

*annoyed by UK's high Petrol prices*

 

[DSTA]

Let's not forget weight when talking about power/torque!

German mainstream cars have become way too heavy for my taste (infact, make that all modern mainstream cars ). It's all weight relativily well used - to comply with safety regulations, passenger comfort, refinement etc - but IMO it kills all the fun.

Example from the econobox league: last week I drove a friend's 75hp VW Lupo and it felt downright sluggish. My mom used to have a 75hp Toyota Starlet which weighed about 450 lbs less and that was one quick box. Could get it to 180 kph easily (autobahn), even the suspension wasn't too shoddy. Only problems were the brakes. After a couple of heavy braking manoeuvers braking distance got to long to feel safe.

I usually rent cars* for business use and from the many different ones I've driven lately there's only one that I really think is innovative: the Audi A2.

Had to get from central Germany to Austria and back over a weekend and was not amused when the gal at the Budget counter told me that Golf TDI I booked was not available. Only Diesel they had left was an A2 (1.4l/75hp), which I took grudgingly (fuel is feffing expensive here, otherwise the Alfa TSpark they offered me would have been sweet...). Still, I was in for a surprise! This strange Audi only weighs around 900kg and is pretty effiecent aerodynamics wise. 190 kph vmax easily and nice grunt from the turbo diesel on the little austrian mountain roads (I could more or less keep up with the natives, who all drive like there's no tomorrow ). Fuel consumption average over 2200 kms: 5.5 l/100 (around 42mpg). This would not be so exciting for normal driving, but I was in a hurry and that thing was on full throttle for 90% of the way.


*reason is that I live in a city with good public transportation so I can afford to use something as unpractical one of these as a not so daily driver .

 

[Cyberian]

<< low torque (relatively) engine - wide pistons, so one valve wouldnt really be efficient in filling the wide and short capacity of the cyllinder. Therefore DOHC was introduced, meaning 4 valves (2 intake, 2 exhaust) so there are 2 entry points for the air/fuel mix, and they can fill the wide capacity better.
>>


Good point!
Two (or more) smaller intake valves of the same area as one large valve will also admit more fuel/air mixture, increasing volumetric efficiency. The inherent 'swirl' induced also helps distribute the fuel/air more evenly for faster, cleaner burning and therefore increasing thermal efficiency as well.

 

[Migroo]

DSTA: 42mpg while driving enthusiastically? I MUST change my car. It gets 40 MPG when driven sedately, but its Japanese, so all the fun is at 4000 + rpm, so if I drive normally (ie: sometimes driving sedately, sometimes gunning it) i get about 26 mpg!!

Cyberian: Yes exactly. However two intave valves (or more) are only worth it if the cylinder is wide enough to benefit. In a thin cylinder, the piston has a long throw, so the fuel gets compressed into a decent mixture around inside the cavity. With a wide cylinder / short stroke engine, if there was one intake valve, then due to hw wide the cylinder is, there may be a case where the fuel is on one side of the cylinder, and hasnt radiated to the other side yet...