THE COMPLETE BREAKDOWN OF IRAQI WMD< YOU MUST SEE THIS

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
"It is instead a presentation of what is actually known about the weapons and programmes themselves."

"No overall judgements are made in this reference file"

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I remained unconvinced until they find some freakin` REAL evidence of the existence of these WMDs.

EVIDENCE! NOT EXCUSES!

meaning:I am too lazy to read this accurate and REAL breakdown, mostly because I hate Bush and have vehemently opposed this war solely only my bias, not the facts at hand. If I were to honestly read that and acutally found out how ignorant I have seemed to those that are aware of the actual facts at hand, I might have to go drown myself from embarrasment.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: cpumaster
many of the source quoted are from CIA or State department via some obscure sources or from inside Iraq itself, such as the July 1998 documents, I'm not saying I trust Saddam and not the US govt, it's apparent that both side lied to achieve their objective, the question is how do you tell which one is lie and which is closer to the truth. Alistar7 you have obviously decided to trust the US govt 100% even before reading the material to voice your opinion. If that's the case, nothing I'd say would change your mind.
But the fact remain, of all those "unaccounted" for numbers, where are they now and isi it really easy to hide them or that hard to find them?
Like I say before, show me the unaccounted for WMD as alleged and I'll rest my mind peacefully.


I had been reading this for 24 hours before posting it, don't bother trying to take away from it's FACTUAL basis because claims are included, they are included and then compared to with what IS KNOWN, this is not a US govt, piece (British BTW), this is just a comprehensive look at what is KNOWN about their WMD and programs, AS WELL AS the claims of the CIA and UK intelligence, which are fairly and accurately compared to the actual facts.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I remained unconvinced until they find some freakin` REAL evidence of the existence of these WMDs.

EVIDENCE! NOT EXCUSES!

How does that go?

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...
gratuitous dig? ;)

I do agree with you though. I'd like to see some "Hard evidence" - meaning a real WMD find. But either way it doesn't matter much to me. What is done is done - we can't change the past, only move on from here. Will Bush take alot of heat if no WMDs are found? yup, but we've only just begun the real search for WMD in Iraq.

CkG
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I remained unconvinced until they find some freakin` REAL evidence of the existence of these WMDs.

EVIDENCE! NOT EXCUSES
like our current administration has been giving us.

Sorry I did not give you enough time to go back and edit "like our current administration has been giving us" in, but thanks for doing that, it makes my comment on your Bush bashing so much more relevant, you even added a second post just to include a Bush Bash, you're slipping bro, how could you forget the main force behind any thought you hold to be true. LMAO.

I will readily admit Bush is a moron though and anything he says needs to be weighed for it's accuracy, but I wouldn't recommend blindly thinking EVERYTHING he said was wrong, it's probaly less than 95% of the time, maybe even only 90% of the time, meaning 10% of the time he could actually know what the hell he is talking about.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Just like the UN wanted hard evidence of their destruction. Did they ever get that, nope. The only HARD EVIDENCE THERE has EVER BEEN IS THEIR EXISTENCE.

The denial in here is unbelievable though, hey all you bush bashers, there are so many other better things to bash him about than this.....


Ask yourselves why Hallibutron and Enron jets were used to ferry GOP "volunteers" to Florida for the recount battles... Remember the one guy who shut down the recounts by pounding on the windows, almost starting a riot, he works for the administration NOW...;)
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
The US govt. has announced it has perfected it's new WMD ( Weapons of Mail Delivery ) program after completing review of data compiled in their initial Anthrax tests and making apporpriate changes to ensure it's effexctiveness.

The US Govt. has also asked that all who opposed their action, general policies, or those planning on voting democratic in the next election, please send your thoughts and concerns to the White House, include a self-addresed stamped envelope (we dont own USPS anymore), you are GURANTEED A RESPONSE...;)

out for tonight...
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: tweakmm
A barrel of nerve gas is worth a thousand words.


You could drink the whole thing down and deny it hurt with a thousand words while you died too.......

Saddams 1,000 proclamations they just magically disappeared didn't convinve UN inspectors, 1 document might have, one site offered for testing to prove at least WHERE they werer destroyed.

Quite a bit on info for a program that doesnt exist, why were they still makking WMD in 1998?
 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
0
0
Evaluation. It should be noted firstly that the UK and US have never claimed that Iraq continued to produce chemical or biological weapons in the period of UNSCOM inspections, between 1991 and 1998 (although they do claim that infrastructure and equipment for the production of non-conventional weapons was developed). As a result, a stockpile of existing weapons must consist of those produced prior to 1991, or after 1998. Any material produced after 1998 is discussed below, in the sections on production.

Up to 1998, a substantial part of the work of the weapons inspectors in Iraq was to track down chemical and biological agents that Iraq had produced before their entry in 1991, and to check the documentation that showed how much of each agent Iraq had manufactured. However, the amount Iraq is thought to have produced in the 1980s was found to be greater than the quantity that Iraq or the inspectors verified as having destroyed. The discrepancy between the two levels is the amount that remains - in the inspectors' language - "unaccounted for".

The levels of agents that are unaccounted for in this way is large, as many of the US and UK claims above rightly identify. But the fact that these quantities are unaccounted for does not mean that they still exist. Iraq has never provided a full declaration of its use of chemical weapons against Iran in the 1980-88 war, and it claims to have destroyed large quantities of its own stocks of these weapons in 1991 without keeping sufficient proof of its actions.

btw, I am not an avid Bush basher, just sometimes he's just too tempting a target to not do it :)

another quote regarding Iraq destroying their WMD program, there's actually hard proof, again, who do you believe case...
Iraq has also cooperated in the destruction of remaining mustard items. 10 artillery shells were found by UNSCOM but were not destroyed before UNSCOM withdrew in 1998. As requested, Iraq kept these shells at al-Mutanna facility, where they were identified by UNMOVIC on 4 December 2002. On 11 February 2003, UNMOVIC reported:

"An UNMOVIC chemical team went to Al Mutanna, approximately 140 km north of Baghdad in preparation for the beginning of the process of destroying 10 155mm artillery shells and four plastic containers filled with mustard gas. The destruction process will begin tomorrow and is expected to last four to five days to complete. UNMOVIC chemical inspectors will work with an Iraqi team in the destruction process. These artillery shells were scheduled to be destroyed by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) in 1998 but the plan was halted when UNSCOM withdrew from Iraq."

Technical problems were subsequently reported, but destruction continued from 25 February 2003, and was completed by 5 March 2003
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I remained unconvinced until they find some freakin` REAL evidence of the existence of these WMDs.

EVIDENCE! NOT EXCUSES!

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
I apologixe for those that could not accept this for what was, much like the 12,000 page Saddam submitted to the UN outlining his WMD programs.



"It is instead a presentation of what is actually known about the weapons and programmes themselves."

Are these the "excuses" you are talking about?

This was to be used as a basis for LEGITIMATE debate about Iraq's WMD programs, it's capabilites, methods, facilities, and stockpiles, most notable what is not accounted for to this day. This was not generated as an excuse for anyone or anything so your post is not only off mark it's way out there.

"No overall judgements are made in this reference file, but material is presented that should allow a more well informed opinion to be reached."

I guess you had a problem with that?

Use your brain, read it, there is plenty for BOTH sides to use as points, however there are always going to be unaccounted ones at hand, not too mention ones made after 1991 that were likely never disclosed.






The evaluation of these claims is made using a broader variety of sources. These include:

Reports of the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) from 1991 to 1999. In particular, its final substantive reports of 25 January 1999 (annex to doc. S/1999/94).

Reports of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), and its factsheet of 25 April 2002 entitled "Iraq's Nuclear Weapons Programme".

Press releases of the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) since the resumption of inspections in November 2002.
Updates and reports to the Security Council by UNMOVIC executive chairman Hans Blix (19 December 2002, 9 January 2003, 27 January 2003, 14 February 2003, 7 March 2003) and IAEA Director-General Mohamed ElBaradei (19 December 2002, 9 January 2003, 27 January 2003 (and report), 14 February 2003, 7 March 2003).
UNMOVIC Working Document of 6 March 2003: "Unresolved Disarmament Issues: Iraq's Proscribed Weapons Programmes"

Published testimony of UN weapons inspectors and former inspectors.

The Persian Gulf War Illnesses Task Force of the US Department of Defense.

Briefings of the Congressional Research Service from 1996 to the present, listed here.

Strategic assessments of credible institutions, particularly the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), the Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS), and the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS).

Credible press reports on facilities inside Iraq and imports into Iraq.

Consultation with independent experts in the fields of relevance. "

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Maybe you would like a look at a UN disarmament report from 1999

4. From the inception of the relevant work, in 1991, Iraq's compliance has been limited. Iraq acknowledges that, in that year, it decided to limit its disclosures for the purpose of retaining substantial prohibited weapons and capabilities.

5. Actions by Iraq in three main respects have had a significant negative impact upon the Commission?s disarmament work:

Iraq?s disclosure statements have never been complete;

contrary to the requirement that destruction be conducted under international supervision, Iraq undertook extensive, unilateral and secret destruction of large quantities of proscribed weapons and items;

it also pursued a practice of concealment of proscribed items, including weapons, and a cover up of its activities in contravention of Council resolutions.

11. In the BW area, the report has to cover all elements of Iraq?s biological warfare programme as Iraq?s declaration in this area cannot, in its totality, be verified by the Commission as being full, final and complete. For this reason it is not possible to present a material balance in this area when there is no firm basis for either side of such a balance.

14. Thirdly, these overall circumstances have meant that, in spite of the years that have passed and the extensive work that has been undertaken, it has not been possible to verify, fully, Iraq's statements with respect to the nature and magnitude of its proscribed weapons programmes and their current disposition.

17. In response to the Commission's requests for relevant documents, Iraq has repeatedly claimed that they no longer exist or cannot be located, a claim which often has been shown to be false, either because inspection activities have in fact located precisely such documents or because Iraq has reversed its stated position and then produced relevant documents.

26. Analysis at the laboratories designated by the Commission has detected the presence of degradation products of nerve agents, in particular VX, on a number of warhead remnants which had been excavated at the sites of the unilateral destruction. The October 1998 meeting of international experts convened by the Commission concluded that "the existence of VX degradation products conflicts with Iraq?s declarations that the unilaterally destroyed special warheads had never been filled with any chemical warfare agents.

28. The full and verifiable accounting for proscribed missile conventional warheads remains outstanding in the verification of the premise that Iraq has not retained any holding of proscribed missiles and that all proscribed missiles and their warheads indeed had been destroyed. Issues related to remnants of warheads that have not been recovered, but which have been declared by Iraq as unilaterally destroyed (some 25 imported warheads and some 25 Iraqi manufactured warheads), remain unresolved in the accounting of proscribed warheads that Iraq claimed to have destroyed unilaterally. Iraq has not provided a definite explanatory statement for the Commission to be able to determine the reasons why no remnants to account for some 50 warheads declared as unilaterally destroyed, were recovered.

29. The full accounting for imported proscribed missile propellants is outstanding. Any retention of such propellants would be an indication that not all proscribed missiles were destroyed as claimed by Iraq. The propellants at issue are used exclusively for such proscribed missiles only. Documents, including an inventory list on their declared unilateral destruction, requested by the Commission, have not been made available by Iraq to support its declaration on the quantities (over 500 tonnes) of proscribed propellants it claims to have destroyed unilaterally.

30. An inventory of proscribed missiles that Iraq declared as destroyed unilaterally contained a reference to seven indigenously produced missiles which were in possession of the Army in 1991. No remnants which could prove such destruction, have been recovered. The Commission has not been able to verify the nature and destruction of these missiles and repeatedly requested Iraq to confirm, through physical evidence, the declared unilateral destruction of these seven missiles. The verification in this area is considered essential as it might involve operational missiles produced indigenously by Iraq. The November 1997 Emergency Session of the Commission determined that the accounting for these seven missiles was one of the priority requirements.

33. Iraq declared that 550 shells filled with mustard had been "lost" shortly after the Gulf War. To date, no evidence of the missing munitions has been found. Iraq claimed that the chemical warfare agents filled into these weapons would be degraded a long time ago and, therefore, there would be no need for their accounting. However, a dozen mustard-filled shells were recovered at a former CW storage facility in the period 1997-1998. The chemical sampling of these munitions, in April 1998, revealed that the mustard was still of the highest quality. After seven years, the purity of mustard ranged between 94 and 97%. Thus, Iraq has to account for these munitions which would be ready for combat use. The resolution of this specific issue would also increase confidence in accepting Iraq?s other declarations on losses of chemical weapons which it has not been possible to verify

34. Among 1,550 R-400 bombs produced by Iraq, more than 1,000 bombs were declared as destroyed unilaterally by Iraq, including 157 bombs stated as having been filled with biological warfare agents.

35. The degree of verification achieved is not satisfactory. Iraq declared that it had produced a total of 3.9 tonnes of VX. Iraq provided documents on production in 1988, but failed to provide verifiable evidence for its activities in 1990. Iraq also denies that it weaponized VX. Sampling by the Commission of special warheads has thrown significant doubt upon this claim. Iraq needs to provide verifiable evidence and clarifications to support its declarations on the production and weaponization of VX. Technical meetings with the Iraqi specialists and field verification are required.

On 1 July 1995, Iraq, for the first time, acknowledged that it had had an offensive BW programme but still denied any weaponization. Subsequently, in August 1995, after the departure form Iraq of Lt. Gen. Hussein Kamel Hassan, Iraq admitted that it had weaponized BW agents and deployed biological weapons for combat use.

38. Since August 1995, Iraq has submitted a number of "Full, Final and Complete Disclosures" (FFCD) of its declared BW programme. These declarations have been assessed by the Commission and by international experts as incomplete, inadequate and containing substantial deficiencies. They were not accepted as a full account of the scale and the scope of Iraq?s BW programme. This refers in particular to weaponization of produced BW agents, bulk BW agent production and acquisitions for the BW programme.

41. Finally, it needs to be recognised that Iraq possesses an industrial capability and knowledge base, through which biological warfare agents could be produced quickly and in volume, if the Government of Iraq decided to do so.



time for some people to wake the fvck up already.... Thats from your precious beloved ineffectual UN.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Iraq?s Declarations
Accounting Status

Munition Type ( fill)* Quantity
1. Munitions declared by Iraq as remaining

After the 1991 Gulf war

250 gauge aerial bombs (mustard) 1,243 1,233 aerial bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM. They were destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision during 1992 and 1993.
250 gauge aerial bombs
(Unfilled)
8,122 1) 7,627 aerial bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM. They were destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision during 1991 and 1993.
2) About 500 aerial bombs have not been found. According to Iraq, 500 aerial bombs were delivered damaged by a foreign supplier.

500 gauge aerial bombs (mustard) 1,426 1) 980 aerial bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM. They were destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision in 1992-1993.
2) Remnants of several hundred destroyed aerial bombs from 438 bombs declared by Iraq as destroyed in a fire accident in 1988, were seen by UNSCOM.

500 gauge aerial bombs (unfilled) 422 1) 331 aerial bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM and destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision.
2) Some 100 aerial bombs have not been found. According to Iraq, 100 aerial bombs were delivered damaged by a supplier.

R-400 aerial bombs
(binary components of sarin)
337 1) 337 aerial bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM. 336 bombs were destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision in 1992.
2) One bomb was removed for analysis outside Iraq by UNSCOM.

3) Evidence of a few R-400 bombs produced by Iraq for BW purposes has been found among 337 CW bombs declared by Iraq.

R-400 aerial bombs (unfilled) 58 58 aerial bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM and destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision.
DB-2 aerial bombs (unfilled) 1,203 1,203 aerial bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM. They were destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision during 1992 and 1993.
122-mm rockets
(sarin)
6,610 6,454 rockets were accounted for by UNSCOM. They were destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision during 1992 and 1993.
122-mm rockets
(unfilled)
6,880 7,305 rockets were accounted for by UNSCOM and destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision.
155-mm artillery shells (mustard) 13,000 12,792 shells were accounted for by UNSCOM. They were destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision in the period 1992-1994.
155-mm artillery shells (unfilled) 16,950 1) 1,700 shells were accounted for by UNSCOM and destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision.
2) In 1998, Iraq presented documents on the conversion of 15,616 shells to conventional munitions. Of these, 1,779 converted shells were accounted for by UNSCOM.

Special missile warheads (sarin/binary components of sarin) 30 1) All 30 warheads were accounted for by UNSCOM.
2) Of those, 29 warheads were destroyed by Iraq under UNSCOM supervision during 1992 and 1993, and

3) One warhead was removed for analysis outside Iraq by UNSCOM.

Sub total of munitions remaining after the 1991 Gulf war 56,281







2. Munitions declared by Iraq as

destroyed during the 1991 Gulf war

500 gauge aerial bombs
(CS)
116 1) No remnants of destroyed bombs have been found.
2) In 1995, documentary evidence was provided by Iraq that 116 bombs filled with CS had been stored at a facility destroyed during the Gulf war.

R-400 aerial bombs
(binary components of sarin)
160 1) In 1992, remnants of bombs consistent with the declared quantity of bombs were seen by UNSCOM.
2) The circumstances of destruction have not been fully clarified.

DB-2 aerial bomb
(sarin)
12 1) In 1991, remnants of up to 50 bombs were seen by UNSCOM.
2) In 1996, documentary evidence was found by UNSCOM that DB-2 bombs had also been filled with mustard (which was not declared). In 1997, Iraq stated that only a few bombs were filled with mustard for trials.

122-mm rockets
(sarin)
4,660 1) In 1991, two locations were seen by UNSCOM where rockets had been destroyed. Evidence of many destroyed rockets was found.
2) In the period 1991-1998, remnants of about 4,000 rockets were recovered and accounted for by UNSCOM.

122-mm rockets
(unfilled)
36,500 1) Completely destroyed hangers where rockets had been destroyed were seen by UNSCOM. Evidence of many destroyed rockets was found. Accounting for the remnants was not possible due to the extent of the destruction.
2) In 1995, documentary evidence was provided by Iraq that 36,500 rockets had been stored at a facility destroyed during the Gulf war.

155-mm artillery shells (mustard) 550 1) No evidence has been found of 550 shells declared by Iraq as having been lost shortly after the Gulf war.
2) In July 1998, Iraq provided a progress report on its ongoing internal investigation.

Sub total of munitions destroyed during the 1991 Gulf war 1 41,998

3. Munitions declared by Iraq as

destroyed unilaterally

250 gauge aerial bombs
(CS)
125 Remnants of bombs consistent with the declared quantity were seen by UNSCOM.
250 gauge aerial bombs (unfilled) 2,000 1) Remnants of 1,400 destroyed bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM.
2) UNSCOM was presented with ingots declared to be from the melting of 600 bombs. The material presented could not be assessed as adequate for proper verification.

R-400 aerial bombs
(binary components of sarin)
527 1) Remnants of bombs consistent with the declared quantity were seen by UNSCOM.
2) Iraq presented supporting documents on the destruction of 527 bombs .

R-400 aerial bombs (biological warfare agents) 157 1) In the period 1992-1998, remnants of up to 60 bombs were accounted for by UNSCOM.
2) Supporting documents on the destruction were presented by Iraq (without reference to the type of agents filled into them).

R-400 aerial bombs (unfilled) 308 1) No evidence was presented of 117 bombs declared by Iraq as having been melted.
2) No evidence was presented of 191 melted bombs declared as defective.

122-mm rockets
(unfilled)
26,500 1) Remnants of 11,500 rockets destroyed through demolition were seen by UNSCOM. Accounting was not possible due to the state of destruction.
2) UNSCOM was presented with ingots declared to be from the melting of 15,000 rockets. The material presented could not be assessed as adequate for proper verification.

Special missile warheads (binary components of sarin / biological warfare agents) 45 1) In the period from 1992 to 1998, remnants of 43-45 special warheads were recovered and accounted for by UNSCOM.
2) In the period from 1997 to 1998, remnants of 3 additional warheads declared as special training warheads were recovered.

3) In 1998, degradation products of CW agent VX were found on some of the remnants of special warheads.

4) Supporting documents were provided by Iraq on the overall accounting for special warheads and on the unilateral destruction of 45 warheads.

Sub total of munitions destroyed unilaterally 29,662
 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
0
0
Great work Alistar7 ;)

now let's assume you're right there are thousands of unaccounted for B&C material and warhead filled with B&C agents,
Can anyone answer these questions:
1. Why did Saddam never used it in this war? He shouldn't have any moral conflict since he already proven and admitted to use them in Iraq-Iran war and against the Kurds and Shi'ite muslims, so why? sudden nervous breakdown?
2. Where are those unaccounted for WMDs? Did he shipped it out to terrorist already? Did he still have them with him inside his bunker 1000 ft underground Baghdad?

If it's true that Saddam still has thousands of WMD and yet we're unable to find them even after taking over the country, we should really be scare, maybe they're already here in US, waiting to be put in action.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
1 - 20,000 motor bombs filled with the riot control agent CS, which were destroyed during the Gulf war at one of the storage facilities, are not included in the table.

2 - Components of special munitions, including boosters and fuzes, are not included in the table.

The majority of these components were not presented by Iraq for verification. According to

Iraq, single-use components were destroyed unilaterally and dual-use components were used

for conventional purposes. UNSCOM was able to verify their disposition partially.

* - The following unfilled munitions were produced indigenously by Iraq:

250 and 500 gauge aerial bombs, R-400 aerial bombs, DB-2 aerial bombs, warheads for 122-mm rockets, missile warheads.

The following empty munitions were procured by Iraq:

250 and 500 gauge aerial bombs, 155-mm shells and 122-mm rockets.

Bulk CW Agents

12. Iraq declared the overall production of 3,859 tonnes of CW agents during the entire period of the implementation of its CW programme. According to Iraq's declarations, mustard, tabun and sarin were produced in large quantities. Not withstanding the admitted production of 3.9 tonnes of VX, Iraq states that attempts to produce VX had failed.

13. According to Iraq, of the declared total quantity of 3,859 tonnes of CW

agents produced, 3,315 tonnes of agents were weaponized. Iraq declared that about 80% of the weaponized CW agents were consumed in the period from 1982 to 1988. In addition, some 130 tonnes of non-weaponized CW agents were claimed to have been discarded by Iraq in the 1980s.

14. The Special Commission reported to the Security Council (S/1997/774 of 6 October 1997) that Iraq?s declarations on its total production and holdings of CW agents could not be verified fully due to the absence of sufficient evidence provided by Iraq and its former foreign suppliers of the procurement of CW precursor chemicals, production and weaponization of CW agents prior to 1988.

15. Iraq declared that 412.5 tonnes of bulk CW agents available in Iraq as of January 1991. These have been accounted for as follows:

411 tonnes of bulk CW agents were destroyed under UNSCOM supervision,

1.5 tonnes of CW agent VX were discarded unilaterally by Iraq and remain unaccounted for.

16. The material balance of 412.5 tonnes of bulk CW agents remaining in Iraq as of January 1991 is provided in table 2.



Gotta love that UN, ton's of great info, seems they had little faith in Saddam themselves.

 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
0
0
no body said Saddam was an honest car dealer anyway, that's why we send them UN inspectors there to inspect his WMD (and maybe inadvertly spy on him too ;) )
the point is it's not easy to hide WMDs especially against the modern high-tech detection equipment plus satellite. Case in point, back in 1997 (or 98) India tried to hide it's nuke building program and we manage to detect it and warn them about it, and that's without any inspectors or North and South no fly zone to limit their movement.
Yet for all those unaccounted for material and bomb, it couldn't be found while the UN was there from 1991-1998 and 2002-2003 and now after Saddam regime is no more, what happened to the trusted sources of State department and the CIA?
Agreed that the mobile labs was really suspicious yet now that the army has found them, turn out they're not in operation and seemed like they've been used for legal purpose, ie farming... well, maybe condy Rice was right, the bits and parts were scattered all across Iraq, ready to be assembled for WMD or used instead for legitimate purpose, but that's not the reason Bush said we should go to war against Iraq...
anyway, what done is done, and this administration has lost my trust in them and the high hope I had for them earlier (after 9/11)...
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
How are these WMD's if they used thousands of them and still didn't win the Iran Iraq war?
Seems to me like these chemical weapons just kill whoever is unfortunate enough to be in the immediate area, which is no different than any other sort of munition.
I really think it's all overblown. If Iraq had nukes or smallpox, then maybe I could call that WMD, but chemical weapons are just unconventional weapons but not really WMD's.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Besides those unaccounted for...

41. Finally, it needs to be recognised that Iraq possesses an industrial capability and knowledge base, through which biological warfare agents could be produced quickly and in volume, if the Government of Iraq decided to do so.


remember what 6 anthrax letters did?

Think of a bio weapon, totally airborne, with a 90% or better fatality rate. 3.5 billion+ dead, possible elimination of man. One self infected person could carry this around the world in days. That was the danger that was at hand, not so much someone dumping 400 tons of vx on NYC.

Good questions CPU, WHERE are they, the UN wanted those answers for 12 years, and we still don't know. I hope the reports of currently surrendered scientists are correct, most if not all left were destroyed only months before the war, better that than floating around with god knows who.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
How are these WMD's if they used thousands of them and still didn't win the Iran Iraq war?
Seems to me like these chemical weapons just kill whoever is unfortunate enough to be in the immediate area, which is no different than any other sort of munition.
I really think it's all overblown. If Iraq had nukes or smallpox, then maybe I could call that WMD, but chemical weapons are just unconventional weapons but not really WMD's.

I agree somewhat, my fear at least has always been a bio weapon more so than a typical chemical WMD.

Remember the things stolen from the health ministry, the polio, etc...including the unknown substances, like to know exactly what they were. The US contended bio weapons were developed there. All those nasty bugs were "looted", yet not one illness reported by Iraqi citizens from exposure to them. Whoever "looted" those knows how to handle, transport, and store them properly, even the "unknown" ones, reassuring thought....
 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
How are these WMD's if they used thousands of them and still didn't win the Iran Iraq war?
Seems to me like these chemical weapons just kill whoever is unfortunate enough to be in the immediate area, which is no different than any other sort of munition.
I really think it's all overblown. If Iraq had nukes or smallpox, then maybe I could call that WMD, but chemical weapons are just unconventional weapons but not really WMD's.

I watch one of the news/local channel where they showed Scott Ritter gave a speech about his work as UN inspector in Iraq after GW1, he explained that Iraq chemical WMD are not as effective as other more developed countries chemical WMD, that's why when they used it in Iraq-Iran war, it only killed small number of Iranian soldiers and has to be deployed in large number to achieve those effect, they are more for psychology than for real battle. In fact he said in any war, he will take 1 US marine with automatic rifle over a bomb with chemical warhead, the marine could kill more people with one round of ammunition compare to the bomb.

Iraq biological weapon is not as advance also and it's actually harder to maintain than the chemical. In order to be effective, bio wmd has to be delivered in the middle of population and under very helpful circumstances could it spread, or it could be grinned to small particle such as the anthrax case we have in US post 9/11...then it also need favorable environment to cause enough destruction. All in all, 1 US marine are more effective than those weapon... :)
 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
0
0
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Besides those unaccounted for...

41. Finally, it needs to be recognised that Iraq possesses an industrial capability and knowledge base, through which biological warfare agents could be produced quickly and in volume, if the Government of Iraq decided to do so.


remember what 6 anthrax letters did?

it killed one or two people and scare the sh*t out of postal workers and the public, but it doesn't kill in massive number...maybe if Saddam send bunch of Christmas cards...

Think of a bio weapon, totally airborne, with a 90% or better fatality rate. 3.5 billion+ dead, possible elimination of man. One self infected person could carry this around the world in days. That was the danger that was at hand, not so much someone dumping 400 tons of vx on NYC.
no bio weapon currently in possesion of any countries are as effective as the nature bio-weapon, AIDS has killed more people than any bio weapon in war combined, spanish fever killed 14million worldwide, I don't know about SARS, hopefully it could be stop early, yet it already killed more than any bio weapon used in this war (0).

Good questions CPU, WHERE are they, the UN wanted those answers for 12 years, and we still don't know. I hope the reports of currently surrendered scientists are correct, most if not all left were destroyed only months before the war, better that than floating around with god knows who.

well check this article, the bottom paragraphs
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Last night - on FOX News (Of all places) there was an analasys of this 'Documentation of WMD Evidence' , and what was discussed was that the INC (Iraqi National Congress) the one that he Pentagons Puppet Chabaldi (Sp -?) heads up, the one that the Administration is trying to impose to lead Iraq, as 'Our Friend' (who's wanted for Bank Fraud in the adjacent countries) is the "Reliable Source" that gave Powell the 'Agent on the ground - within Iraq' intelligence information of Biological Weapons Facilities, Mobile Laboratories, and the Nuclear Weapons information that the UN Inspectors found to be fradulent.

This looks like they were cooking the books for their own agenda, and had the eyes ears of the Chicken-Hawks and Neo-Cons, who in their gleeful exuberance grabbed onto anything that even remotely looked like it would support their pre-conceived reasons for war.

What a shame.

Tell me this - What purpose does it serve for the Iraqi Scientists to deny that there are any weapons left? Every one of them is saying that they were destroyed. If they were to say 'Yes - still got 'em' that would be what Bushies Boys want to hear, and they would be greatly rewarded and coddeled to just for showing it. The Regime is crushed, the threat is gone, but there are still no WMD's found.

Yes, we still need a Regime change - this time to get rid of our liars.

Oh, yeah - forgot to add: At the end of Gulf-1, our military under Swartzkoff destroyed many bunkers of weapons, and refused to list, record, or document in any way what was in them. Many of the Gulf-1 soldiers stated that they looked like stockpiles of weapons left over from the Iran-Iraq war, and probably contained chemical weapons. That in itself would account for why Iraq could not provide proof of their disposal, our Army destroyed it and didn't bother accounting for it.
 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
0
0
yeah I remember story about that, didn't some of our soldiers suffered from GW syndrome after involved in that destroying activities, exhibiting some of the chemical attack sign...