The clasic definition of a fool is somebody who, after 8 years of the worst disaster in American history,

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,236
6,338
126
Nebor: Gun issue voters are more organized and outnumber anti-abortion voters. Plus we've proven time and again that we value our guns more than the lives of children.

It can sometimes be very foolish to be single minded. Anti-abortion freaks also come to mind. Are you the fool who would chose hell if you can carry a gun? You just might be.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,236
6,338
126
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Its called voting for the lesser of two evils. Its very, very easy to do really. :)

no, it's called voting for the wrong person because you lack foresight, perspective, and/or common sense.

Really??

What has President Bush done thats really so horribly fucked up the country? Name 1 thing thats just ruined the country.

Cause last time *I* looked around my life hasnt gotten any worse due to Bush. So what did he do that was so horrible to you?

One thing that comes to mind are 4000 American soldiers dead in Iraq, needlessly and thousands more physically and mentally damaged.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Well, I agree, looking at the way Americans perceive government and its roll, and their depth of knowledge of the issues, the LP certainly will not hold much power in government. It's not that people are dumb, but ignorant, and the media and politicians are mostly to blame.

But one thing I failed to point out in my last reply to you was that eventually, there will very likely be major cuts in spending, not so much because people will demand it, but simply because the government will not be able to afford the spending. They'll either need to raise taxes to a level we have never seen before, or destroy the currency printing the money. Both of those will be unacceptable. But there will be a point where something MUST have to give. What we have now is completely unsustainable, not to mention what Obama and McCain would likely pile on top. And when, not if, but when, we get to that point, do you think the cuts are going to be gradual? Not likely. So, it is not that "we" want to get out a pair of scissors and start cutting now, it is that we would prefer to do it gradually (and keep it that way, I admit), rather than waiting until the government has to do just that.

Ya, something will have to give eventually. I agree with you there and it does upset me how much we spend money that we don't have. I just hope that this "something" doesn't mean sacrificing a lot of things that I happen to value. Many of those things are programs and services that a lot of libertarians hate, but that is just me and my values and beliefs.

However, in regards to your first statement, I disagree with how it is the media and politicians to blame. Or at least, I don't believe that they are the root cause of the problem even though they are most certainly a key element. Think of it has the chicken and the egg debate as you read through the rest of this argument.

The root cause is the people. The media is just a business. Like all businesses, they are in the business to make money first and deliver quality second. The product that they will sell is whatever product that the people are willing to spend the most money on so to speak. Unfortunately, the people have made it clear that the thing that they want to buy the most is bullshit. It is drama. It is red herrings. It is anything but the whole truth because the whole truth, while important as it may seem, is considered very boring to most people as they read about it. If the people were truly more interested in purchasing the truth then the media would sell the truth because they want money and lots of it. Who can blame them? They are just a business. A product of the free market. The free market has not delivered the quality news that we want because the people are not buying it. The government certainly has influence over them and their business, but I can guarantee that they don't have anywhere near as much influence over what the media sells as opposed to the people because the people are the ones with the money. I don't like that fact any more than the next guy, but that is the reality. It falls back on the fact that people tend to be dumb and irresponsible. They don't know what is best for them or handle the freedoms that are given to them properly. If they were, then they would only be purchasing news that is reliable and truthful.

Politicians are very much the same way. They sell the people what the people want to buy. Unfortunately, we run into the same problem as we do with the media. The people don't know what is best for them so they end up buying products that are not very good for them sometimes. If they wanted to buy what is truly best for themselves and this country then that is what politicians would sell them, but they don't and presidential campaigns are perfect examples. The candidates are selfish people too and they want to get into office and to get into office they need to buy the support of the people. The trick is to offer a product that the most people want to buy. That product is what we get in a campaign. The winner is the one who offered the most attractive product to the majority of the voters. However, just because something is attractive doesn't mean it is always for the best. With that said, the people have chosen what the politicians will sell as well as how they will try to control the media who acts as the distributor of their products.

In the case of what Libertarian politicians most often try to sell me, I don't want to buy their product either. I want a product that works and I don't think their product will work well and it is not because of the design of said product. It is because that product will end up being heavily misused for very selfish and evil purposes. Those who wish to use the product the way it is intended to be used will end up being the ones who are the victims of the misuse and abuse. Eventually, they will not want the product anymore especially since part of what libertarians promise is extremely little government interference which is a nice idea in some sense, but someone needs to enforce the rules. Someone needs to control the misusers and the abusers and stop them from harming those who do things properly. The people are not going to do it on their own and it will not just magically happen by itself either.


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,236
6,338
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Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

What factors do you believe exist in the human psyche that cause people to persist in delusions that are obviously dangerous and self destructive? Why do folk who claim to believe in personal responsibility wind up voting for a party that violates the constitution whenever it gets in their way? Why do they vote for a party that pretends to be fiscally conservative and rings up huge debt? What is it about the conservatives that causes them to cling to what they say is good but brings nothing but evil. Are we as a country better off now as a country than we were before Bush took office? Are you not McInsane and do you not see?

How long will you vote to destroy your country before you see a need to change?

Who here, after having been brainwashed all their lives on the dangers of liberals, and living through the catastrophe of the last eight years, can begin to question that something may be wrong?

I don't know, Moonbeam, why ARE you voting for another 4+ years of single-party government rule and letting the democrats run roughshod over Washington after seeing what a disaster it was the last time we let one political party have the city all to themselves?

I believe that the paralysis you worship is why we are where we are. I believe that Republicans have shown us what they are made of. I believe there will be no third party rescue anywhere is sight. I believe that the Democrats have a once in many generations chance of holding a majority that can act, and that only they offer any possibility of hope. I believe that only they can deliver and that they also know that. I believe that if they fail to they will be removed from power just as I hope the Republicans who failed now are. I see this reasoning as ineluctable and absolute and sound, all other reasonings delusional. I believe that those who are fearful are reacting to their own internal fears that have been programed into them. There is only one possibility of hope and I am willing to go there. There is no doubt in my mind the last 8 years have been a total disaster. I hope this is clear enough to you.
 

Pastore

Diamond Member
Feb 9, 2000
9,728
0
76
Nebor, you think you're going to see a dime of the social security you're paying? I guess it's time for you to take out the SSA.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,208
13,801
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Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Yes, I am sad to see the U.S. go by the way of the Roman Empire.

You say that as if the Democrats are anti-war. They aren't.

Please convince the republicans of this, because they still think Democrats are weak on the military or some such bullshit.

Clinton crippled the military during his 8 years.

Maybe you should look into when the military draw-down actually started before you spout gibberish.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,236
6,338
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
I think when you look, not just at the last 8 years, but at the last 50 or 60 years, you should begin to wonder why anyone would vote for either McCain or Obama.

What drives one to either of these guys is fear. Fear that the other would win. The lesser of two evils.

The problem is the lesser of two evils keeps getting more evil. Eventually we'll be choosing a Chavez over a Hitler.

Another ideological purist who can't face reality. The simple fact that if one's options are either the lesser or the greater of two evils with no other real options, one always works for the lesser is lost on such a mind. It's an attachment to an ideal of principal that precludes rational action. One may as well pray.

Sorry, Moonie.

I will sit down and watch you two destroy this country before I'll stand up and help you do it.

Some fools will sit on a turd that's being flushed down the toilet because, theoretically, it's the safest place in the bowl. You are stuffed full of your opinions and can't think through fundamentals. It could not be any more obvious that McSame will stay the disaster course and any more obvious that Obama will bring some form of change. You are stuck in the head with the notion that an unknown is as bad as a real turd. That is because you defer logical thought to you the ideological story you tell yourself. You are running a program and can't think. Sad really. You would rather drown than take the hand of a devil.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Duwelon
I hope he is the same as Bush in his resolve to confront evil in this world. We haven't had a terrorist attack on US soil now since 9/11 because of Bush. Freedom isn't free, if it takes another Bush to purchase our freedom through my own sweat and blood i'll gladly step up. Hopefully though, the Republicans learned their lessons about fiscal spending.

You are brainwashed and delusional. Bush's worthless 'war on terrar' has created more enemies of this country than we had before 9/11.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
I remember when Moonbeam was railing about Kerry voted for the war, he's a POS, etc.

And then of course his partisanship took over and of course he became a full supporter for and voted for Kerry.

Nothing different here. He's a partisan democrat who likes to think he is a modern day socrates. Most see through his bullshit.

Me, well McCain definitely reset my expectations today with Palin. Romney would have set me on a 3rd party or obama path. Now we have a race.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,236
6,338
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
I remember when Moonbeam was railing about Kerry voted for the war, he's a POS, etc.

And then of course his partisanship took over and of course he became a full supporter for and voted for Kerry.

Nothing different here. He's a partisan democrat who likes to think he is a modern day socrates. Most see through his bullshit.

Me, well McCain definitely reset my expectations today with Palin. Romney would have set me on a 3rd party or obama path. Now we have a race.

Some fools imagine themselves to be brilliant critics who can fit a cow in a shoe simply because both are covered in leather.

Kerry was the best chance we had for change, just that simple. And of course the Socratic exceptional, like myself see through your bullshit.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Some fools will sit on a turd that's being flushed down the toilet because, theoretically, it's the safest place in the bowl.

This is just the dumbest thing I have ever see you post. Its not just a stupid analogy, it just doesn't even make any sense at all.

You are stuffed full of your opinions and can't think through fundamentals.

The only people who can't think through fundamentals are the ones out there supporting Obama and McCain, and their respective political parties. You all are so short-sighted. Your fear of each other has led to your blindness of what you result to supporting.

It could not be any more obvious that McSame will stay the disaster course and any more obvious that Obama will bring some form of change.

And you completely fail to see that Obama will "stay the disaster course" as well. He's not change of anything real. His idea of change is an illusion. He's just gonna juggle the contents of the same box. He's an interventionist overseas and big government at home. Your confusing of real and illusion are due to fear and hatred, whether that fear and hatred have merit is irrelevant.

You are stuck in the head with the notion that an unknown is as bad as a real turd.

Negative. I have looked at Obama very closely. He's not "unknown" to me. I am quite familiar with what he wants to do and what he believes.

That is because you defer logical thought to you the ideological story you tell yourself. You are running a program and can't think.

Look in the mirror.

Sad really. You would rather drown than take the hand of a devil.

Goddamn right.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Xavier434
People are not and never will be responsible and smart enough to handle the kind of freedom you wish to give them. If you give it to them, they will misuse it and abuse it. They did it before and they will do it again. The result will be a demand for change. It will be a demand for someone to take control of the problem. It will be a demand for more government. I guarantee it. I also think that it is unfortunate, but that's the truth.

Jawohl mein fuhrer!

You're the kind of liberal that makes me proud to be be a libertarian.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Hehe, as if that were the obvious question. I guess if you go straight ahead we'll never know the answer.
Turning 10 degrees to one side or the other will almost surely have the same consequences. The only way to be safe is to look around for alternative paths, even if the only feasible one is behind you.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,208
13,801
136
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Some fools will sit on a turd that's being flushed down the toilet because, theoretically, it's the safest place in the bowl.

This is just the dumbest thing I have ever see you post. Its not just a stupid analogy, it just doesn't even make any sense at all.

What if it's a double-flusher?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Some fools will sit on a turd that's being flushed down the toilet because, theoretically, it's the safest place in the bowl.

This is just the dumbest thing I have ever see you post. Its not just a stupid analogy, it just doesn't even make any sense at all.

What if it's a double-flusher?

I don't care if a gorilla jumped on it, had its way with it, and gave it a reach around.
 

Blueychan

Senior member
Feb 1, 2008
602
0
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What factors do you believe exist in the human psyche that cause people to persist in delusions that are obviously dangerous and self destructive? Why do folk who claim to believe in personal responsibility wind up voting for a party that violates the constitution whenever it gets in their way? Why do they vote for a party that pretends to be fiscally conservative and rings up huge debt? What is it about the conservatives that causes them to cling to what they say is good but brings nothing but evil. Are we as a country better off now as a country than we were before Bush took office? Are you not McInsane and do you not see?

How long will you vote to destroy your country before you see a need to change?

Who here, after having been brainwashed all their lives on the dangers of liberals, and living through the catastrophe of the last eight years, can begin to question that something may be wrong?

You are on the other end of the spectrum too, brainwashed all your life by liberalism.
 

mxyzptlk

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2008
1,888
0
0
Originally posted by: Pastore
Nebor, you think you're going to see a dime of the social security you're paying? I guess it's time for you to take out the SSA.

shhhh, he's so happy about it.. don't spoil it for him.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: alchemize
I remember when Moonbeam was railing about Kerry voted for the war, he's a POS, etc.

And then of course his partisanship took over and of course he became a full supporter for and voted for Kerry.

Nothing different here. He's a partisan democrat who likes to think he is a modern day socrates. Most see through his bullshit.

Me, well McCain definitely reset my expectations today with Palin. Romney would have set me on a 3rd party or obama path. Now we have a race.

Some fools imagine themselves to be brilliant critics who can fit a cow in a shoe simply because both are covered in leather.

Kerry was the best chance we had for change, just that simple. And of course the Socratic exceptional, like myself see through your bullshit.
I rest my case.

 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What factors do you believe exist in the human psyche that cause people to persist in delusions that are obviously dangerous and self destructive?

Ignorance and fear.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What factors do you believe exist in the human psyche that cause people to persist in delusions that are obviously dangerous and self destructive?

Ignorance and fear.

The Republicans have run every single election since 9/11 on fear. This isn't to say it's a bad idea as it worked well for 5 years, but it's true. When you hear people talk it's usually not how John McCain is going to make this country great again, it's how either 1.) John McCain will protect you from people you should be afraid of, or it is how you should be afraid of Obama. Either way it tends not to be about how he is good, but how other people are bad.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
I thought it was terrible when Bush defeated McCain in the 2000 primaries, and then was appointed President, because his tax cuts would bankrupt the country. I didn't know he would also get us into an unwinnable and unnecessary war, and use propaganda and fear to become the greatest threat to our democracy in history.

I consider it false to say that McCain will be 4 more years of ALL the same failed policies. I don't support him, but I don't fear him. He will correct most of the excesses of Bush, however he will waste more time in Iraq and I doubt he can fix the fiscal mess we are in.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Tom
I thought it was terrible when Bush defeated McCain in the 2000 primaries, and then was appointed President, because his tax cuts would bankrupt the country. I didn't know he would also get us into an unwinnable and unnecessary war, and use propaganda and fear to become the greatest threat to our democracy in history.

I consider it false to say that McCain will be 4 more years of ALL the same failed policies. I don't support him, but I don't fear him. He will correct most of the excesses of Bush, however he will waste more time in Iraq and I doubt he can fix the fiscal mess we are in.
Bush will leave a real big mess and I don't think either guy would be able to clean it up in just 4 years.

For Conservatives McCain losing actually could be a win win situation as Obama would get stuck with this Albatross that Bush will leave and the Republicans then could run a real Conservative in 2012 against him with a pretty good chance of winning.

 

MikeyLSU

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2005
2,747
0
71
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Yes, I am sad to see the U.S. go by the way of the Roman Empire.

You say that as if the Democrats are anti-war. They aren't.

Please convince the republicans of this, because they still think Democrats are weak on the military or some such bullshit.

Clinton crippled the military during his 8 years.

Maybe you should look into when the military draw-down actually started before you spout gibberish.

not gibberish at all, it started to slowly decrease, but Clinton brought it down by a much larger margin and kept going.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
Originally posted by: Pastore
Nebor, you think you're going to see a dime of the social security you're paying? I guess it's time for you to take out the SSA.

shhhh, he's so happy about it.. don't spoil it for him.

Are you guys saying Uncle Sugar isn't going to provide for my retirement? That's ridiculous, Americans have a right to a generous retirement.