The Case for Democracy

Ozoned

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Mar 22, 2004
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Shunning a 'fear society'
By SAUL SINGER


The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror
By Natan Sharansky with Ron Dermer


George W. Bush loves Natan Sharansky's new book, and it is easy to see why. The cerebral former Soviet dissident and the more-earthy Texan president might seem to have little in common. Yet Sharansky has written a book that explains, better than Bush himself could, the intellectual underpinnings of the president's core beliefs.

The fact that Bush lacked more of a theoretical infrastructure to bolster his faith in democracy is not his fault. Few, if any, non-Americans since de Tocqueville's Democracy in America have captured this quintessentially American idea with such depth and power.

The Case for Democracy is a polemic, in the best sense of the word. It does not attempt to exhaustively treat the mechanics of promoting democracy, or all the pitfalls along the way. As the title states, it is the "case for" democracy as the critical tool in the war that we are now fighting. It presents a way of understanding our world, and provides a paradigm for taming it that, despite its idealism, is more realistic than that of the "realists" have proven to be.

Sharansky's fundamental idea is that the world can only be understood by distinguishing, first and foremost, between "free" and "fear" societies. This is a deeper distinction than its more common cousin, the distinction between democracies and dictatorships. The term democracy is often used loosely to refer to a place that has elections, without looking at the more essential measures of a free society.

Sharansky and his co-author, former Jerusalem Post columnist Ron Dermer, posit a simple "town square" test of freedom: "Can a person walk into the middle of the town square and express his or her views without fear of arrest, imprisonment or physical harm? If he can, then that person is living in a free society. If not, it's a fear society."

We must know how to identify a free society, because only such societies can be trusted to live in peace with their neighbors. The converse is also true: A fear society is incapable of maintaining peace. As the authors put it, "the mechanics of tyranny make non-democracies inherently belligerent."

Since 9/11, the idea that dictatorship breeds violence and democracy brings peace has become almost banal. Yet this certainly was not so before 9/11, and there is a huge gap between this realization and truly infusing it into national policies.

Twice, for instance, and not coincidentally right after Sharansky had long meetings with Vice President Dick Cheney (in June 2002) and last month with Bush, the president turned Mideast policy upside-down by pinning the responsibility for Palestinian statehood, not on Israel, but on Palestinian adoption of democratic government.

In one of the most fascinating aspects of the book, Sharansky describes his meetings with various Israeli and American leaders.

In the main, these leaders reacted to Sharansky as if he were from another planet. Not that they disagreed with the importance of democracy and human rights. Just not this minute.

For example, when Sharansky met the senior Bush in January 1990, Bush explained it was preferable to keep the then disintegrating Soviet Union together because Gorbachev was a man with whom the US "could do business."

Sharansky disagreed, suggesting that "nothing could or should be done to convince Lithuanians, Latvians, and Ukrainians to reject the independence they had craved for so long." America should, rather, focus on helping all parties manage the transition to democracy.

Bush, Sharansky reports, went on to ignore this advice and instead, in August 1991, went to Ukraine to give his embarrassing "Chicken Kiev" speech in which he warned that country against "suicidal nationalism," just months before they opted for independence.

If anything, Sharansky met with even greater skepticism from Israeli leaders. The greatest conflict came in Rabin's time, when Sharansky warned, at the height of the Oslo euphoria, that encouraging Arafat to create a fear society would doom the prospects for peace.

But Sharansky did not fare that much better in persuading prime ministers of the Right, such as Netanyahu and Sharon, that the name of the game was not finding a Palestinian leader with whom Israel could "do business," but whether the Palestinians lived in a free society.

One might think that at least with human rights groups, Sharansky would find a common language. Yet when he had an emotional reunion in Israel with his Amnesty International comrades who fought for his release, he could not understand the reports they were putting out. These global surveys seemed to portray democracies, such as Israel, as greater human rights violators than Saudi Arabia.

Sharansky proposed a simple solution to this imbalance, which was born in part by the ease of garnering information in free societies. Why not divide their annual report into three parts - for totalitarian regimes, authoritarian dictatorships, and democracies?

"Without these categories" Sharansky explained, "Amnesty was creating a dangerous moral equivalence between countries where human rights are sometimes abused and countries where they are always abused." Amnesty rejected this approach on the grounds that it "does not support or oppose any political system." This baffled him. How could a human rights organization "be impartial about political systems that are inherently hostile to human rights?"

When Bush invited Sharansky to the White House to discuss his book [last month], Sharansky gave him the ultimate compliment: He called Bush a "dissident."

The irony is that, even in our post 9/11 world, Sharansky and Bush are almost alone in their belief that democracy has practical, not just theoretical, power to transform the world. When the rest of the world comes around, The Case for Democracy will be recognized as a seminal and prescient classic.



Some of us know and live the idea of freedom, and live in a free and open society. :thumbsup:

Some of us don't. :(

Required reading for those of you that still don't understand that the seeds have been sewn for a new century and the seeds are the low maintenance variety.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Ozoned
Link

Shunning a 'fear society'
By SAUL SINGER


The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror
By Natan Sharansky with Ron Dermer


George W. Bush loves Natan Sharansky's new book, and it is easy to see why. The cerebral former Soviet dissident and the more-earthy Texan president might seem to have little in common. Yet Sharansky has written a book that explains, better than Bush himself could, the intellectual underpinnings of the president's core beliefs.

The fact that Bush lacked more of a theoretical infrastructure to bolster his faith in democracy is not his fault. Few, if any, non-Americans since de Tocqueville's Democracy in America have captured this quintessentially American idea with such depth and power.

The Case for Democracy is a polemic, in the best sense of the word. It does not attempt to exhaustively treat the mechanics of promoting democracy, or all the pitfalls along the way. As the title states, it is the "case for" democracy as the critical tool in the war that we are now fighting. It presents a way of understanding our world, and provides a paradigm for taming it that, despite its idealism, is more realistic than that of the "realists" have proven to be.

Sharansky's fundamental idea is that the world can only be understood by distinguishing, first and foremost, between "free" and "fear" societies. This is a deeper distinction than its more common cousin, the distinction between democracies and dictatorships. The term democracy is often used loosely to refer to a place that has elections, without looking at the more essential measures of a free society.

Sharansky and his co-author, former Jerusalem Post columnist Ron Dermer, posit a simple "town square" test of freedom: "Can a person walk into the middle of the town square and express his or her views without fear of arrest, imprisonment or physical harm? If he can, then that person is living in a free society. If not, it's a fear society."

We must know how to identify a free society, because only such societies can be trusted to live in peace with their neighbors. The converse is also true: A fear society is incapable of maintaining peace. As the authors put it, "the mechanics of tyranny make non-democracies inherently belligerent."

Since 9/11, the idea that dictatorship breeds violence and democracy brings peace has become almost banal. Yet this certainly was not so before 9/11, and there is a huge gap between this realization and truly infusing it into national policies.

Twice, for instance, and not coincidentally right after Sharansky had long meetings with Vice President Dick Cheney (in June 2002) and last month with Bush, the president turned Mideast policy upside-down by pinning the responsibility for Palestinian statehood, not on Israel, but on Palestinian adoption of democratic government.

In one of the most fascinating aspects of the book, Sharansky describes his meetings with various Israeli and American leaders.

In the main, these leaders reacted to Sharansky as if he were from another planet. Not that they disagreed with the importance of democracy and human rights. Just not this minute.

For example, when Sharansky met the senior Bush in January 1990, Bush explained it was preferable to keep the then disintegrating Soviet Union together because Gorbachev was a man with whom the US "could do business."

Sharansky disagreed, suggesting that "nothing could or should be done to convince Lithuanians, Latvians, and Ukrainians to reject the independence they had craved for so long." America should, rather, focus on helping all parties manage the transition to democracy.

Bush, Sharansky reports, went on to ignore this advice and instead, in August 1991, went to Ukraine to give his embarrassing "Chicken Kiev" speech in which he warned that country against "suicidal nationalism," just months before they opted for independence.

If anything, Sharansky met with even greater skepticism from Israeli leaders. The greatest conflict came in Rabin's time, when Sharansky warned, at the height of the Oslo euphoria, that encouraging Arafat to create a fear society would doom the prospects for peace.

But Sharansky did not fare that much better in persuading prime ministers of the Right, such as Netanyahu and Sharon, that the name of the game was not finding a Palestinian leader with whom Israel could "do business," but whether the Palestinians lived in a free society.

One might think that at least with human rights groups, Sharansky would find a common language. Yet when he had an emotional reunion in Israel with his Amnesty International comrades who fought for his release, he could not understand the reports they were putting out. These global surveys seemed to portray democracies, such as Israel, as greater human rights violators than Saudi Arabia.

Sharansky proposed a simple solution to this imbalance, which was born in part by the ease of garnering information in free societies. Why not divide their annual report into three parts - for totalitarian regimes, authoritarian dictatorships, and democracies?

"Without these categories" Sharansky explained, "Amnesty was creating a dangerous moral equivalence between countries where human rights are sometimes abused and countries where they are always abused." Amnesty rejected this approach on the grounds that it "does not support or oppose any political system." This baffled him. How could a human rights organization "be impartial about political systems that are inherently hostile to human rights?"

When Bush invited Sharansky to the White House to discuss his book [last month], Sharansky gave him the ultimate compliment: He called Bush a "dissident."

The irony is that, even in our post 9/11 world, Sharansky and Bush are almost alone in their belief that democracy has practical, not just theoretical, power to transform the world. When the rest of the world comes around, The Case for Democracy will be recognized as a seminal and prescient classic.



Some of us know and live the idea of freedom, and live in a free and open society. :thumbsup:

Some of us don't. :(

Required reading for those of you that still don't understand that the seeds have been sewn for a new century and the seeds are the low maintenance variety.

What a joke. Anyone who thinks we are free only need be reminded of three little letters: IRS. Anyone who knows anything about money and banking only need be reminded of three other letters: FRS (Federal Reserve System). Let's also not forget that wonderful little piece of legislation called the Bank Secrecy Act that allows the IRS or other federal agencies to snoop in your bank accounts and empty them without even notifying you. For decades the American people have been subjected to social engineering and collectivism. You call that freedom? I sure don't.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.

Would you consider Germany and Japan free Societies?

And a point if I may:

[*]Freedom is not a political ideology.


 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
What a joke. Anyone who thinks we are free only need be reminded of three little letters: IRS. Anyone who knows anything about money and banking only need be reminded of three other letters: FRS (Federal Reserve System). Let's also not forget that wonderful little piece of legislation called the Bank Secrecy Act that allows the IRS or other federal agencies to snoop in your bank accounts and empty them without even notifying you. For decades the American people have been subjected to social engineering and collectivism. You call that freedom? I sure don't.

Granted, the IRS and its methods are a problem, but that doesn't make us an un-free society. And yes, we have a lot of areas where Collectivism has poisoned our Individualist underpinnings, but it still has not--and I would wager will not--managed to strip us of freedom.

It's good to be vigilant, and I commend your efforts; but let's not overstate the problem.

Jason
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.

Would you consider Germany and Japan free Societies?

And a point if I may:

[*]Freedom is not a political ideology.

Japan and Germany were countries that forfeited their freedoms when they attacked. Since 91 the Iraqi people harmed no one, yet we saw fit to war on them.

Interesting thing about freedom. You equate freedom with Democracy. I with self determination. If the Iraqis wanted a religious government and the US forced "Democracy" on them, then we have removed their freedom to choose. Maybe they want elections. Maybe they want to be just as you would have them. What if they do not? Your will over theirs is not freedom.
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
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0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.

On the contrary, Liberty ALWAYS has moral precedence over tyranny, period. A free people ALWAYS have the right, though not the duty, to overthrow a tyrant in order to free the people who suffer under his rule.

Jason
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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What...the...fvck

This is the biggest piece of junk I have EVER read. The morons writing this article come out like Democracy is some failing idea that needs a caped crusader (in the form of Bush, apparently) to rescue it. It even has the audacity to say that Bush is one of the only people who has faith in Democracy to have praticle power to change the world.

I'm sorry, but this is just too much. It's attempting to paint Bush as some savior to an ideal that really does not need saving, especially from him.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.

On the contrary, Liberty ALWAYS has moral precedence over tyranny, period. A free people ALWAYS have the right, though not the duty, to overthrow a tyrant in order to free the people who suffer under his rule.

Jason

So there is no limit on what you may do as long as it is in the name of "Liberty" as you understand it.

Sounds like a new justification for an old evil to me.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.

Would you consider Germany and Japan free Societies?

And a point if I may:

[*]Freedom is not a political ideology.

Japan and Germany were countries that forfeited their freedoms when they attacked. Since 91 the Iraqi people harmed no one, yet we saw fit to war on them.

Interesting thing about freedom. You equate freedom with Democracy. I with self determination. If the Iraqis wanted a religious government and the US forced "Democracy" on them, then we have removed their freedom to choose. Maybe they want elections. Maybe they want to be just as you would have them. What if they do not? Your will over theirs is not freedom.

If we are justified only by restoring freedom that once existed, then perhaps we should look back and find a period in time when their were freedoms in Iraq. Evolution or creationism. Your choice...

Another point if I may:


[*]We are not at war against the Iraqi people, we are at war against those that oppose freedom.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: dahunan
WE FVCKING HELPED ELECT SADDAM .. who are we trying to fool now?


My mind doesn't work like yours. I don't,,,,,,,hate.

 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
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I don't think you guys understand what we have been doing for the last 50 years. We have systematically disenfranchised billions of people. To think that they would welcome us with open arms now is simply naive.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.

Would you consider Germany and Japan free Societies?

And a point if I may:

[*]Freedom is not a political ideology.

Japan and Germany were countries that forfeited their freedoms when they attacked. Since 91 the Iraqi people harmed no one, yet we saw fit to war on them.

Interesting thing about freedom. You equate freedom with Democracy. I with self determination. If the Iraqis wanted a religious government and the US forced "Democracy" on them, then we have removed their freedom to choose. Maybe they want elections. Maybe they want to be just as you would have them. What if they do not? Your will over theirs is not freedom.

If we are justified only by restoring freedom that once existed, then perhaps we should look back and find a period in time when their were freedoms in Iraq. Evolution or creationism. Your choice...

Another point if I may:


[*]We are not at war against the Iraqi people, we are at war against those that oppose freedom.

You haven't addressed the issue of if the Iraqis have the right of self determination as THEY define it.

The problem with your words is they sound wonderful, but aren't really attached to objective reality. As the post between yours and mine points out, we supported Saddam when it was in the percieved best interests of the US. That he was then just as he was when we removed him made little difference. We used him. Giving freedom now? Why not then? Oh look, it seems Uncle Sam's halo has a spot of red on it.

I know better than many how this works. We say what sounds good and we do what we feel is in our best interest. If it seemed that another Saddam would be good, then another Saddam would appear. It isn't about the Iraqis, it's about us.

Lastly, we bombed the Iraqis. We have killed tens of thousands. What proportion of those are against "freedom"?

This was is so much like VN it isn't funny. We killed and were killed because of OUR ideology, our idea of freedom. They died. We died too, and it wasn't at all about liberation. It was a sham, just as saying that sending troops in and attacking a people and cities isn't a war on them. Incredibly Orwellian. Your logic is also circular. We are at war to free people who may not wish freedom as you would have it so they are enemies of freedom and we are at war with them. That is tantamount to saying that if you aren't for us, you are against freedom and must die.

That's spooky.


 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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On the contrary, Liberty ALWAYS has moral precedence over tyranny, period. A free people ALWAYS have the right, though not the duty, to overthrow a tyrant in order to free the people who suffer under his rule.

I do believe you have a very clear understanding of freedom, tyranny and the moral implications of both. :thumbsup:


This is an interesting read, thanks Ozoned. As much as some people want to dance around the realities, Western-style social systems are they key to peace and prosperity... and eventually, some day, this world will largely be that way. I have faith in the evidence demonstrating the superiority of some principles, ideals, and concepts over others.

As lousy a speaker as Bush is, and as misguided he is on the peripheral details, he does embody this basic but monumental notion. Trust me, it aint the UN (full of feudal elites and unfree nations) that will bring the world closer to peace and prosperity. It will be lead by the United States, just as it has since 1776 and ESPECIALLY since 1941.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
On the contrary, Liberty ALWAYS has moral precedence over tyranny, period. A free people ALWAYS have the right, though not the duty, to overthrow a tyrant in order to free the people who suffer under his rule.

I do believe you have a very clear understanding of freedom, tyranny and the moral implications of both. :thumbsup:


This is an interesting read, thanks Ozoned. As much as some people want to dance around the realities, Western-style social systems are they key to peace and prosperity... and eventually, some day, this world will largely be that way. I have faith in the evidence demonstrating the superiority of some principles, ideals, and concepts over others.

As lousy a speaker as Bush is, and as misguided he is on the peripheral details, he does embody this basic but monumental notion. Trust me, it aint the UN (full of feudal elites and unfree nations) that will bring the world closer to peace and prosperity. It will be lead by the United States, just as it has since 1776 and ESPECIALLY since 1941.


We need breathing room anyway.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.

Would you consider Germany and Japan free Societies?

And a point if I may:

[*]Freedom is not a political ideology.

Japan and Germany were countries that forfeited their freedoms when they attacked. Since 91 the Iraqi people harmed no one, yet we saw fit to war on them.

Interesting thing about freedom. You equate freedom with Democracy. I with self determination. If the Iraqis wanted a religious government and the US forced "Democracy" on them, then we have removed their freedom to choose. Maybe they want elections. Maybe they want to be just as you would have them. What if they do not? Your will over theirs is not freedom.

If we are justified only by restoring freedom that once existed, then perhaps we should look back and find a period in time when their were freedoms in Iraq. Evolution or creationism. Your choice...

Another point if I may:


[*]We are not at war against the Iraqi people, we are at war against those that oppose freedom.

You haven't addressed the issue of if the Iraqis have the right of self determination as THEY define it.

The problem with your words is they sound wonderful, but aren't really attached to objective reality. As the post between yours and mine points out, we supported Saddam when it was in the percieved best interests of the US. That he was then just as he was when we removed him made little difference. We used him. Giving freedom now? Why not then? Oh look, it seems Uncle Sam's halo has a spot of red on it.

I know better than many how this works. We say what sounds good and we do what we feel is in our best interest. If it seemed that another Saddam would be good, then another Saddam would appear. It isn't about the Iraqis, it's about us.

Lastly, we bombed the Iraqis. We have killed tens of thousands. What proportion of those are against "freedom"?

This was is so much like VN it isn't funny. We killed and were killed because of OUR ideology, our idea of freedom. They died. We died too, and it wasn't at all about liberation. It was a sham, just as saying that sending troops in and attacking a people and cities isn't a war on them. Incredibly Orwellian. Your logic is also circular. We are at war to free people who may not wish freedom as you would have it so they are enemies of freedom and we are at war with them. That is tantamount to saying that if you aren't for us, you are against freedom and must die.

That's spooky.
Knowing what freedom is and knowing how many have died for me to have it, I know of absolutely no circumstance where I could fathom making any sort of argument against freedom.



"You haven't addressed the issue of if the Iraqis have the right of self determination as THEY define it."



No, Under Sadamm, they did not. I would suggest that they do now, or that they will soon enjoy this right as well as many others, that they have never known.

Regarding the mechanics of Delivering the opportunity for freedom or as you call it spooky

My thoughts are that success or failure can only come from an attempt.
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,569
901
126
The notion of democracy doesn't mean shvt to people in Asia, Africa, the Middle East or anywhere else when they can't come up with enough food to keep their families alive day in and day out.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
If a people want a democracy then I think they should have it but not on my terms and not with their blood without their permission. For me to demand they accept my political ideology by force of arms is not freedom.

Would you consider Germany and Japan free Societies?

And a point if I may:

[*]Freedom is not a political ideology.

Japan and Germany were countries that forfeited their freedoms when they attacked. Since 91 the Iraqi people harmed no one, yet we saw fit to war on them.

Interesting thing about freedom. You equate freedom with Democracy. I with self determination. If the Iraqis wanted a religious government and the US forced "Democracy" on them, then we have removed their freedom to choose. Maybe they want elections. Maybe they want to be just as you would have them. What if they do not? Your will over theirs is not freedom.

If we are justified only by restoring freedom that once existed, then perhaps we should look back and find a period in time when their were freedoms in Iraq. Evolution or creationism. Your choice...

Another point if I may:


[*]We are not at war against the Iraqi people, we are at war against those that oppose freedom.

You haven't addressed the issue of if the Iraqis have the right of self determination as THEY define it.

The problem with your words is they sound wonderful, but aren't really attached to objective reality. As the post between yours and mine points out, we supported Saddam when it was in the percieved best interests of the US. That he was then just as he was when we removed him made little difference. We used him. Giving freedom now? Why not then? Oh look, it seems Uncle Sam's halo has a spot of red on it.

I know better than many how this works. We say what sounds good and we do what we feel is in our best interest. If it seemed that another Saddam would be good, then another Saddam would appear. It isn't about the Iraqis, it's about us.

Lastly, we bombed the Iraqis. We have killed tens of thousands. What proportion of those are against "freedom"?

This was is so much like VN it isn't funny. We killed and were killed because of OUR ideology, our idea of freedom. They died. We died too, and it wasn't at all about liberation. It was a sham, just as saying that sending troops in and attacking a people and cities isn't a war on them. Incredibly Orwellian. Your logic is also circular. We are at war to free people who may not wish freedom as you would have it so they are enemies of freedom and we are at war with them. That is tantamount to saying that if you aren't for us, you are against freedom and must die.

That's spooky.
Knowing what freedom is and knowing how many have died for me to have it, I know of absolutely no circumstance where I could fathom making any sort of argument against freedom.



"You haven't addressed the issue of if the Iraqis have the right of self determination as THEY define it."



No, Under Sadamm, they did not. I would suggest that they do now, or that they will soon enjoy this right as well as many others, that they have never known.

Regarding the mechanics of Delivering the opportunity for freedom or as you call it spooky

My thoughts are that success or failure can only come from an attempt.

I submit they have no real choice but to accept what we put before them. What they want we care not. That they are like us is paramount. This is a fundamental disconnect that Bush and his had when we went into Iraq. They were completely flummuxed that the flowers and roses did not follow the "liberation". So, whoever does not support the US vision is a de facto terrorist. THey are dead enders, Saddam loyalists, everything but people who do not view us as we want them to. True there are those who attack the Iraqis. I have no sympathy with them, nor the means by which we let them come to attack.

You engage in Newspeak. "Delivering the opportunity for Freedom" is in this case war. It was war or nothing. I and others had ideas to wrest the control of Iraq from Saddam. We were ignored. War is easy.

A big problem is that you can substitute "Freedom" "Democracy" "Proletariat" "Fatherland" "Holy Roman Empire" or whatever you want into the equation, but when it adds up to the powerful attacking a non aggressor nation in the name of some "ism" then there is something lacking in the quality of the attacking nation.

Somewhere in Iraq there is a child crying over the body of her father. She does not care if it was for freedom, or Saddam, or Democracy or Bush or insurgents. All she knows is that her beloved father is no more. She has lost him forever. Someone took his life. If that man did no harm, then his killer should burn in Hell, regardless of his words.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Dissipate
What a joke. Anyone who thinks we are free only need be reminded of three little letters: IRS. Anyone who knows anything about money and banking only need be reminded of three other letters: FRS (Federal Reserve System). Let's also not forget that wonderful little piece of legislation called the Bank Secrecy Act that allows the IRS or other federal agencies to snoop in your bank accounts and empty them without even notifying you. For decades the American people have been subjected to social engineering and collectivism. You call that freedom? I sure don't.

Granted, the IRS and its methods are a problem, but that doesn't make us an un-free society. And yes, we have a lot of areas where Collectivism has poisoned our Individualist underpinnings, but it still has not--and I would wager will not--managed to strip us of freedom.

It's good to be vigilant, and I commend your efforts; but let's not overstate the problem.

Jason

I really do not understand how I could possibly overstate the problem. Thousands (if not millions) of people have been completely financially ruined by the IRS, but that is only the most blatant case. The FDA, FBI, DEA, BATF, EPA etc. etc. etc. have ruined not thousands of people's lives, but millions. Especially the FDA which has directly caused thousands of ill people to die by denying them experimental drugs. Through systematic and dogmatic bureaucracy these agencies have caused immeasurable misery and destruction. Democracy has failed. All democracy has produced is a system in which every person is a potential looter and violater of your property. A better term for this is chaos, and over the past 100 years the chaos has only gotten worse. We now have centralized fractional reserve banks that are based entirely on paper, an educational system that has become virtually irrelevant in terms of the demands of the 21st century, a welfare state on the brink of bankruptcy, and an enormously expensive war of which the total costs in terms of human life and money cannot be accurately quantified.

By the way, Bush is the epitome of democracy. He represents democracy in a way better than anyone could ever describe. Not only has he perpetuated the above tentacles of government, he has expanded them at home and abroad. The government is now growing at the fastest rate in history since the Johnson administration.