The Best Health Care System in the World!

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
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All I know is that an alarming rise in pitchfork wounds might inspire a greater urgency for national healthcare and maybe other important issues.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,566
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All I know is that an alarming rise in pitchfork wounds might inspire a greater urgency for national healthcare and maybe other important issues.
Politically, we've come to an important pitchfork in the road. Tines are of the essence. So, grab that pitchfork and make hay while the sun (still) shines,. Because, as any farmer will tell you when you ask directions to a more sustainable climate, without action, you can't get there from here
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
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I'm sure that this happens in some cases (especially in niche health situations), but I know many with cancer who get to a specialist and have the tests done and start treatment within a couple of weeks; my niece is an example. I am by no means saying that the US system is anywhere near ideal. I'm only saying that letting the .gov run it wouldn't be the Utopian panacea that many on the left think it would be.

This same is true in England, or any other country that has 'socialized' medicine. I know several people in Canada and England that say that they can go see a doctor, even a specialist, with out a unreasonable wait, making it comparable to the wait times in the US. The example you originally posted is what amounts to a worst case scenario, and so is mine. Now you are trying to counter it with a best case scenario. Comparing best case vs. worst case is not a fair comparison.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
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Politically, we've come to an important pitchfork in the road. Tines are of the essence. So, grab that pitchfork and make hay while the sun (still) shines,. Because, as any farmer will tell you when you ask directions to a more sustainable climate, without action, you can't get there from here
God I hope one doesn't have to be outstanding in their field to know the definition of tine. Such a dullard wouldn't make for the sharpest fork in the drawer. But still, it's tine for more blacksmiths than wordsmiths, seems to me. History tells us people can be prodded to act. Of course, if the wordsmiths want to seek justice in a more admissible way, they need to put more Republicans in the pokey.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,566
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But still, it's tine for more blacksmiths than wordsmiths, seems to me.
Then the prescription for progress is clear. Take two anvils, and call me in the morning.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,648
26,746
136
Name 1 first world country that has a population of 340M. No, China does not count.

Again - I am in NO EFFING WAY claiming that our system is the best. We definitely can improve. But unlike many on the left, I don't have faith enough in our .gov to take the healthcare system over and make it much better.

That was a pretty lame dodge. I gave you a straight question can you do it or not? The alternative is to provide actual evidence for your assertion that US healthcare delivery inherently has to be much less efficient than any other first world country. BTW you can't just cite population figures, show your work. Or is it just your feels?
 
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sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,949
16,208
126
Name 1 first world country that has a population of 340M. No, China does not count.

Again - I am in NO EFFING WAY claiming that our system is the best. We definitely can improve. But unlike many on the left, I don't have faith enough in our .gov to take the healthcare system over and make it much better.

LOL, show me a first world country with more population than USA. Hint, it doesn't exist. And if such country doesn't exist, how can you find one with universal healthcare?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
126
Darn it, I could use a good anvil.
As it happens, and as a result of my endless search to master the conservative imbecile that lives within me, including the also seemingly interminable 'apprehension' that paranoid idiot produces within me, a fear namely, that the stupidity of the bipedal Zombie destroyers of nature I walk among, will any day now do me in, I have dedicated a good deal of my recreational spare time to self medicating. And I indulge this narcotically satisfying addiction, or the taking two Advil PMs a night if you will, in the form of nicely encapsulated naive daydreaming called YouTube video bingeing. You should know then, as per your desire to own a good anvil, that I have watched, but most importantly, you can watch numerous videos as to how that wish can be actualized. But alas, it will require some other tools like an industrial strength metal lathe or a pretty healthy crucible. But if you want to do shaker furniture, too, you will be able to make your own hinges.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,566
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But if you want to do shaker furniture, too, you will be able to make your own hinges.
All the shakers and movers at the political top in our country do is rearrange the furniture. They build nothing. The entire process is . . . unhinged.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
But if you want to do shaker furniture, too, you will be able to make your own hinges.

It would be nice to create quality hardware that matches the style. My interior doors are builder specials, but nice 4 or 6 panel doors with hand forged hardware would be perfect.
 

DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
1,545
1,305
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Darn it, I could use a good anvil.

Blacksmithing is a good skill to have.

LOL, show me a first world country with more population than USA. Hint, it doesn't exist. And if such country doesn't exist, how can you find one with universal healthcare?

In a way 1 does exist, it's called the European Union and it has a population of over 500 million. Most of those 500 million have universal healthcare.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,949
16,208
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Blacksmithing is a good skill to have.



In a way 1 does exist, it's called the European Union and it has a population of over 500 million. Most of those 500 million have universal healthcare.

EU is not a county :colbert:

Regardless, Ferrel is just being his usual low info self
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126

Mine is fine, thank you, and I do appreciate that you care about my health and that's not sarcasm. So do you want to play a game, something from a movie we all know?

For myself, I think I'm going to try yet again to let nature play out its course in health care threads. I'll fail eventually but I should stop burning up electrons on the topic. You too may do what your nature demands.

Perhaps a "duel" with paintball guns? AT's first PPV for charity? Rubber knives perhaps? The image is rather absurd and funny at the same time. Two old horses going at it for the amusement of others.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
Perhaps a "duel" with paintball guns? AT's first PPV for charity? Rubber knives perhaps? The image is rather absurd and funny at the same time. Two old horses going at it for the amusement of others.

I suggest competitive tilting at windmills.
 
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Chromagnus

Senior member
Feb 28, 2017
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Most of the people who want some sort of single payer setup do not want the government to "run health care."
We want the hospitals and doctors offices to be run by the doctors and nurses.

The "thing" we want to replace is the health insurance industry since it wastes time and money for everyone.

The way to make it work, is to ensure that congress, senate do not have an option for a different or better plan. Make 1 public universal plan.

This is in no way meant as a blanket defense of health insurers because they do some things that aren't great for the market but I think you are wrong about your assumption that removing health insurers from the system is going to magically reduce costs. Health insurers are basically the only ones in the health care cycle that tries to manage costs and a lot of the bad things they do are to those ends. Doctor/hospital/pharma/med-device don't care how much things costs and in a lot of ways they have an incentive to try and get you to spend more. The individual doesn't care how expensive something is if they've hit their deductible/out of pocket max, they just want the best care possible at any price.

Insurance companies can be shitty but they are the ones trying to get people to spend less. They are trying to restrict care to lower prices (which can be a problem) and they negotiate lower rates with hospitals to try and save money. There are plenty of ways that the insurance system we have could be improved but just cutting it out completely does nothing to address how much healthcare costs.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,949
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This is in no way meant as a blanket defense of health insurers because they do some things that aren't great for the market but I think you are wrong about your assumption that removing health insurers from the system is going to magically reduce costs. Health insurers are basically the only ones in the health care cycle that tries to manage costs and a lot of the bad things they do are to those ends. Doctor/hospital/pharma/med-device don't care how much things costs and in a lot of ways they have an incentive to try and get you to spend more. The individual doesn't care how expensive something is if they've hit their deductible/out of pocket max, they just want the best care possible at any price.

Insurance companies can be shitty but they are the ones trying to get people to spend less. They are trying to restrict care to lower prices (which can be a problem) and they negotiate lower rates with hospitals to try and save money. There are plenty of ways that the insurance system we have could be improved but just cutting it out completely does nothing to address how much healthcare costs.


We still have health insurers up here. We are not talking about elliminating health insurance, rather, provide a baseline insurance for everyone.
I am covered by universal healthcare, but I still have private insurance on top.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
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Insurance companies can be shitty but they are the ones trying to get people to spend less. They are trying to restrict care to lower prices (which can be a problem) and they negotiate lower rates with hospitals to try and save money. There are plenty of ways that the insurance system we have could be improved but just cutting it out completely does nothing to address how much healthcare costs.

He didn't say remove it, he said replace it. The problem with insurance is that they are attempting to lower costs for themselves and care nothing at all if the costs are lower for the patient or not, in fact since more and more hospitals and clinics are now owned by those same insurance companies they are not interested in keeping costs down for the patient at all, just in mitigating how much of that cost they pay.

What we want is a replacement for the insurance company that is actually working on our behalf to keep prices down instead of a profit driven motive that only works for me incidentally. There is several ways to do this, but it seems that socialized healthcare is the way most other places have found to work so we should really pay attention to the work they already did in this area.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,167
1,638
126
This is in no way meant as a blanket defense of health insurers because they do some things that aren't great for the market but I think you are wrong about your assumption that removing health insurers from the system is going to magically reduce costs. Health insurers are basically the only ones in the health care cycle that tries to manage costs and a lot of the bad things they do are to those ends. Doctor/hospital/pharma/med-device don't care how much things costs and in a lot of ways they have an incentive to try and get you to spend more. The individual doesn't care how expensive something is if they've hit their deductible/out of pocket max, they just want the best care possible at any price.

Insurance companies can be shitty but they are the ones trying to get people to spend less. They are trying to restrict care to lower prices (which can be a problem) and they negotiate lower rates with hospitals to try and save money. There are plenty of ways that the insurance system we have could be improved but just cutting it out completely does nothing to address how much healthcare costs.
You are of course right about this. Its not simple, it is very complicated.

The reason why removing insurance from the program may reduce rates is that every doctors office and hospital won't need to have a dozen people dedicated to filing claims, working on prior auths, doing collections, or figuring out third party processing/billing standards for a bunch of different plans. Have you ever seen the NDCPD D.0 handbook, its like 500 pages, and that is just for pharmacy third party billing. With a single payer, you will automatically remove SOME complexity.

One of the other elements of "saving" with universal coverage is simply that more people will get preventative care, which usually costs a LOT less than getting the care after something goes wrong.
 
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