The benefits of DX11

[Jacen]

Saw this on Youtube today though it isn't really brand new. These devs cover the benefits of DX11 and why it matters.

DX11 video

Personally I am more curious as to when it will really be applicable. I know the rumors state a AMD launch close to Windows 7 but there is still some time before games actually make good use of it.

I do hope the movement towards 11 goes a bit faster than 10 did. It seemed like forever before really saw the noticeable benefits.

 

[Kakkoii]

DirectX 11 AMD Demos 1 \ 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...mrkkr4&feature=channel
DirectX 11 AMD Demos 2 \ 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...tBxAzE&feature=channel
DirectX 11 AMD Demos 3 \ 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...HvoCSg&feature=channel
DirectX 11 AMD Demos 4 \ 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yLfbN0&feature=channel

DirectX 11 Froblins demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmzBJAyF5lU

 

[BFG10K]

I predict DX11?s adoption will be faster than DX10?s because I predict Windows 7 will be more popular than Vista.

 

[gigahertz20]

Hardware always gets pushed out much faster then software is written for it, not sure if we will see DX11 games this year, at least not any good ones. I don't think a game company would even want to release a DX11 game this year, since Windows 7 doesn't come out until October 22nd. I heard MS was going to make DX11 available for Vista, but that's probably not until after Windows 7 releases....once that happens, more people will have it and developers will be more likely to use all the features.

 

[Scali]

AMD has been teaming up with lots of developers to promote DX11.
You can port a D3D10 engine into D3D11 in a matter of hours. That's going to be an important factor in the adoption of D3D11. Going from D3D9 to D3D10 required you to rewrite a whole lot of your code, especially if you also wanted decent performance out of D3D10. It just worked in a completely different way. D3D11 on the other hand mostly just expands on D3D10, with only a few minor changes.

Another big factor is that the D3D11 API is not exclusive to DX11 level hardware. It has a 'downlevel' feature, which means you can use a subset of the D3D11 API on DX10 and even DX9 hardware. So you can support the whole range of hardware with a single API. You no longer need to support D3D9 and D3D10 side-by-side in your code (well, except for supporting XP, sadly).

Finally, unlike D3D10, D3D11 is not going to be exclusive to Windows 7 at introduction. It will also be available on Vista. So you get a much larger installed base.

I think all these factors combined will make for a quick adoption of D3D11. You will probably see some developers skipping D3D10 altogether, and going straight from D3D9 to D3D11.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: gigahertz20
Hardware always gets pushed out much faster then software is written for it, not sure if we will see DX11 games this year, at least not any good ones. I don't think a game company would even want to release a DX11 game this year, since Windows 7 doesn't come out until October 22nd. I heard MS was going to make DX11 available for Vista, but that's probably not until after Windows 7 releases....once that happens, more people will have it and developers will be more likely to use all the features.

I heard too DX11 will be on Vista after Win7 is released.

I predict DX11?s adoption will be faster than DX10?s because I predict Windows 7 will be more popular than Vista.

Can only hope ,end of the day its down to game software companies not the OS,personally I blame them since they have been slow adopting DX10 ,I'm sure DX11 will be popular especially if it appears on both Vista and Win7.

 

[Scali]

Originally posted by: Mem
I heard too DX11 will be on Vista after Win7 is released.

The beta of DX11 included in the DirectX SDK is already working on Vista. The final DX11 should be released for Vista at about the same time as Windows 7, hopefully even sooner.

 

[Wreckage]

I doubt we will see any games next year.

 

[apoppin]

How long before DX11 is common?

2011

 

[Jacen]

That is a good point on the vista vs. 7 adoption rate. But that still doesn't mean devs will be pushing the limits with DX11 any sooner. If anything OS adoption will only benefit DX11 a couple years down the road when it becomes obvious just how well win 7 is or isnt taking off.

 

[Modelworks]

Probably quite some time. Remember it isn't when the tech is being offered to the public that determines when we will see things using it. It is that time + development time. Games take usually at least 2 years . So even if the cards were on the market starting today, it would likely be another 2 years before games would start shipping that fully supported it.


I want DX11.1 just for the tessellation features. That alone would make my work a lot easier.


Also figure in that development of pc games is shrinking. DX11 will pose a challenge for developers because it only works on the pc. So any game will have to only support the pc, or the developer is going to have to maintain separate engines for DX11 and the console version, which generally means the pc version will be inferior.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

I voted "later", as in whenever DX11 consoles come out.

 

[Scali]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Probably quite some time. Remember it isn't when the tech is being offered to the public that determines when we will see things using it. It is that time + development time. Games take usually at least 2 years . So even if the cards were on the market starting today, it would likely be another 2 years before games would start shipping that fully supported it.

Not entirely, since developers have had access to DX11 since November 2008, when the DX SDK shipped with the first public beta of DX11.
So if we take your 2 years development, then theoretically we could see DX11 games in November 2010.
However, DX11 doesn't require a full development cycle. It's an incremental step from DX10, and you can convert your DX10 engine to DX11 at any step in the process.

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Also figure in that development of pc games is shrinking. DX11 will pose a challenge for developers because it only works on the pc. So any game will have to only support the pc, or the developer is going to have to maintain separate engines for DX11 and the console version, which generally means the pc version will be inferior.

This is nothing new. DX10 also was PC-only. Besides... There is only one console that supports DX at all, and that's the XBox. And even that implementation isn't entirely like the version on PC, so you will already have a special console variation of your engine anyway, even for XBox.
Other consoles always need separate engines, no matter what version of DX you use on PC.
Nothing changes, as far as developers are concerned. No extra challenge compared to what they already faced for years.

 

[vj8usa]

Originally posted by: njdevilsfan87
I voted "later", as in whenever DX11 consoles come out.

We still don't have any DX10 console hardware yet (the PS3/360 use 7800/X1800 generation GPUs), but we do have games that can make use of DX10.

 

[Kakkoii]

Most game developers that are already using DX10 will most likely switch to DX11, due to how easy it is to go from DX10 to DX11. And there being no reason not to, unlike there was with DX10.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Kakkoii
Most game developers that are already using DX10 will most likely switch to DX11, due to how easy it is to go from DX10 to DX11. And there being no reason not to, unlike there was with DX10.

what are there?
--30 games with DX10 ?

"most devs"

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Scali

This is nothing new. DX10 also was PC-only. Besides... There is only one console that supports DX at all, and that's the XBox. And even that implementation isn't entirely like the version on PC, so you will already have a special console variation of your engine anyway, even for XBox.
Other consoles always need separate engines, no matter what version of DX you use on PC.
Nothing changes, as far as developers are concerned. No extra challenge compared to what they already faced for years.

DX10 was pc only and maybe that is why there are so few dx10 games.

Most developers are using game engines that are compatible with the xbox 360 which meant that the pc would at least get a console port because it was easy to do. That is why I don't see games for dx11 anytime soon. There are very few DX10 based game engines to port to dx11, and even less engines that are dx11 native, I know of 1. The majority are dx9 since they can run on xbox and pc . It is a major selling point for a lot of the popular engines.

The difference now is that their is less incentive than ever to develop for the pc. If I were writing a new game engine, the last thing I would make it is native dx11 unless it was going to be a pc only title and I doubt many stuidos are in the position now to support only the pc.

Why would I support DX11 and only be able to sell to the pc market, when I can support dx9 and sell to both markets with little change in the engine I am using ?

 

[Kakkoii]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Kakkoii
Most game developers that are already using DX10 will most likely switch to DX11, due to how easy it is to go from DX10 to DX11. And there being no reason not to, unlike there was with DX10.

what are there?
--30 games with DX10 ?

"most devs"

You took "most devs" out of context. Read a sentence as a whole next time please.

 

[Scali]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Scali

This is nothing new. DX10 also was PC-only. Besides... There is only one console that supports DX at all, and that's the XBox. And even that implementation isn't entirely like the version on PC, so you will already have a special console variation of your engine anyway, even for XBox.
Other consoles always need separate engines, no matter what version of DX you use on PC.
Nothing changes, as far as developers are concerned. No extra challenge compared to what they already faced for years.

DX10 was pc only and maybe that is why there are so few dx10 games.

Most developers are using game engines that are compatible with the xbox 360 which meant that the pc would at least get a console port because it was easy to do. That is why I don't see games for dx11 anytime soon. There are very few DX10 based game engines to port to dx11, and even less engines that are dx11 native, I know of 1. The majority are dx9 since they can run on xbox and pc . It is a major selling point for a lot of the popular engines.

The difference now is that their is less incentive than ever to develop for the pc. If I were writing a new game engine, the last thing I would make it is native dx11 unless it was going to be a pc only title and I doubt many stuidos are in the position now to support only the pc.

Why would I support DX11 and only be able to sell to the pc market, when I can support dx9 and sell to both markets with little change in the engine I am using ?

Your whole post is based on a misconception, which ironically I already addressed in the post you responded to.
As I said, even if you have a D3D9 engine, it won't just run on an XBox 360. Its Direct3D is different, and requires modifications, especially if you also want to make use of the special features that it offers for maximum performance. Most developers do so.

Aside from that, you seem to equate 'consoles' with XBox360, and completely ignore the PS3, which does not support D3D at all, yet many game developers develop games for PS3 and PC/XBox.
So they already have cross-platform engines anyway. UnrealEngine3 was one of the first engines to support DX10 actually, while UE3 is also one of the most popular engines currently used in games, because it works on PC, XBox and PS3.
Since most developers use a third-party engine such as UE3 anyway, it's not an issue for them anyway, they already get DX10 support when they license the engine. Doesn't take any extra work.

So lots of misconceptions on your behalf. A game doesn't have to EXCLUSIVELY support DX11, it can support DX9 and consoles aswell, many games already work this way.

 

[SSChevy2001]

Originally posted by: Kakkoii
DirectX 11 AMD Demos 1 \ 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...mrkkr4&feature=channel
DirectX 11 AMD Demos 2 \ 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...tBxAzE&feature=channel
DirectX 11 AMD Demos 3 \ 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...HvoCSg&feature=channel
DirectX 11 AMD Demos 4 \ 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yLfbN0&feature=channel

DirectX 11 Froblins demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmzBJAyF5lU

The Froblins Demo is actually using DX10.1 API, and will run on a HD 4800 series card.
http://developer.amd.com/sampl...os/pages/froblins.aspx

Most game developers that are already using DX10 will most likely switch to DX11, due to how easy it is to go from DX10 to DX11. And there being no reason not to, unlike there was with DX10.

So far the only native DX10 title I know of is Stormrise, all the rest are still built around DX9, because console gaming is where developers are focused.

Once the next generation of consoles come out, we should start seeing the benefits of DX11. So I voted Later.

 

[Scali]

Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
So far the only native DX10 title I know of is Stormrise, all the rest are still built around DX9, because console gaming is where developers are focused.

Not sure what your idea of 'native DX10' is, but D3D9 and D3D10 are completely separate APIs.
You can't 'build a game around DX9' and still use D3D10, because you have to rewrite large parts of your engine to even use D3D10 in the first place. The D3D10 API looks nothing like D3D9. It actually takes quite a bit of work.

D3D11 on the other hand is a superset of D3D10, and with a bit of search&replace you can upgrade a D3D10 engine to D3D11 in just a few hours.
Since D3D10 support is already out there, there's not much of a hurdle to take.
Going from D3D9 to D3D10 was a much larger hurdle, but many developers put in D3D10 anyway. Hence the argument that developers wouldn't want to put in the effort is not a valid one.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Scali

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Scali

This is nothing new. DX10 also was PC-only. Besides... There is only one console that supports DX at all, and that's the XBox. And even that implementation isn't entirely like the version on PC, so you will already have a special console variation of your engine anyway, even for XBox.
Other consoles always need separate engines, no matter what version of DX you use on PC.
Nothing changes, as far as developers are concerned. No extra challenge compared to what they already faced for years.

DX10 was pc only and maybe that is why there are so few dx10 games.

Most developers are using game engines that are compatible with the xbox 360 which meant that the pc would at least get a console port because it was easy to do. That is why I don't see games for dx11 anytime soon. There are very few DX10 based game engines to port to dx11, and even less engines that are dx11 native, I know of 1. The majority are dx9 since they can run on xbox and pc . It is a major selling point for a lot of the popular engines.

The difference now is that their is less incentive than ever to develop for the pc. If I were writing a new game engine, the last thing I would make it is native dx11 unless it was going to be a pc only title and I doubt many stuidos are in the position now to support only the pc.

Why would I support DX11 and only be able to sell to the pc market, when I can support dx9 and sell to both markets with little change in the engine I am using ?

Your whole post is based on a misconception, which ironically I already addressed in the post you responded to.
As I said, even if you have a D3D9 engine, it won't just run on an XBox 360. Its Direct3D is different, and requires modifications, especially if you also want to make use of the special features that it offers for maximum performance. Most developers do so.

You are right a D3D9 engine will not just run on a 360, you have to spend 30 seconds of your time to change the target platform in the compiler.

Aside from that, you seem to equate 'consoles' with XBox360, and completely ignore the PS3, which does not support D3D at all, yet many game developers develop games for PS3 and PC/XBox.

The PS3 and Wii do not figure into it because they do not have the ability to run the same game on two platforms with little work.
Show me the list of games that are on the PS3 and PC but not the Xbox.

So they already have cross-platform engines anyway. UnrealEngine3 was one of the first engines to support DX10 actually, while UE3 is also one of the most popular engines currently used in games, because it works on PC, XBox and PS3.
Since most developers use a third-party engine such as UE3 anyway, it's not an issue for them anyway, they already get DX10 support when they license the engine. Doesn't take any extra work.

It is still an issue. I truly wish it were as easy as buying a license to UE3 and bang, you got D3D10, 11, 12, etc support along with all the consoles. But that is not how it works, especially not with UE3. I was just at the epic offices last week because of a situation related to that, although involving OpenGL , not directx. One of the problems is that different platforms require different assets . The more different the platform the worse that gets. And it takes a lot of extra work to make assets for different platforms. The pc and 360 can share the same assets, sometimes you can also use them with the ps3, depending on the game. The wii is a whole different story.... :disgust:, I don't even like to think about it.

So lots of misconceptions on your behalf. A game doesn't have to EXCLUSIVELY support DX11, it can support DX9 and consoles aswell, many games already work this way.

The likelihood of seeing a game that supports DX9 and DX11 is next to zero. A game can only support multiple platforms as long as the return is worth it. Right now pc gaming is looking pretty bad in the financial area, to the point that I do not see developers devoting support to it unless that support is easy to add. DX11 would require a totally different approach to the way the game is designed if it is to make use of DX11. Otherwise it would be like the DX9 games we have now with DX10 support tacked on that make little difference.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: SSChevy2001

So far the only native DX10 title I know of is Stormrise, all the rest are still built around DX9, because console gaming is where developers are focused.

Once the next generation of consoles come out, we should start seeing the benefits of DX11. So I voted Later.

They also tried DX10 only with Lost Planet, but I don't think that went very well.

 

[SSChevy2001]

Originally posted by: Scali

Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
So far the only native DX10 title I know of is Stormrise, all the rest are still built around DX9, because console gaming is where developers are focused.

Not sure what your idea of 'native DX10' is, but D3D9 and D3D10 are completely separate APIs.
You can't 'build a game around DX9' and still use D3D10, because you have to rewrite large parts of your engine to even use D3D10 in the first place. The D3D10 API looks nothing like D3D9. It actually takes quite a bit of work.

D3D11 on the other hand is a superset of D3D10, and with a bit of search&replace you can upgrade a D3D10 engine to D3D11 in just a few hours.
Since D3D10 support is already out there, there's not much of a hurdle to take.
Going from D3D9 to D3D10 was a much larger hurdle, but many developers put in D3D10 anyway. Hence the argument that developers wouldn't want to put in the effort is not a valid one.

'Native DX10' means that from the start the developer was focused on using DX10.

It will be interesting to see what the 1st DX11 title has to offer over DX10 and 10.1, but in most cases I don't expect much. Like you pointed out developers can just convert their titles in a short time frame.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: SSChevy2001


It will be interesting to see what the 1st DX11 title has to offer over DX10 and 10.1, but in most cases I don't expect much.

I'm afraid what we will get is a bunch of games that say DX11 on the box, but are no better than they would have been if they were dx10.