The Battle off Samar

[BUTCH1]

Hello all, on this memorial day I thought I'd post this, probably the most heroic fight ever involving the USN where 6 small "escort carriers", 3 destroyers and 2 "DE's", (destroyer escorts, used mainly for anti-sub duty) took on a force of the IJN (Imperial Japanese Navy) of 4 Battleships, (including the Yamoto with her "18 guns, the largest BS of all time), 6 "heavy" cruisers, 2 "light" cruisers and 11 destroyers. This group fought with such ferocity that the Japanese fleet eventually retreated thinking they were up against a lot more than they actually were, had they not prevailed tens of thousands of marines who had just occupied the islands would have been slaughtered by the combined firepower the IJN had on hand that day, here then is the story, the Battle off Sampan..http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsp3m0_battle-off-samar_shortfilms

 

[MongGrel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar

Salute.

I Remember my Grandfather even talking of the St. Lo, although he was in the Artillery with Patton across North Africa, Normandy, and into France and Germany later.

Had 5 Bronze stars, he was my hero growing up more or less, was an Artist after the war.

 

[spacejamz]

Where is Task Force 34? The world wonders....

 

[notposting]

I think it's Silent Hunter 4 that has a mission with that battle. The fleets are sooooo ridiculously mismatched lol.

Those little tin can sailors had some big brass balls.

 

[BUTCH1]

Where is Task Force 34? The world wonders....

They were lured away in attempt to finish off the remaining carriers, they assumed that the rest of the fleet would be there but in fact had circled back to attack the landing force protected by the tiny USN forces left there. Wiki has an extensive page on this battle, here is a bit about someone on the DDE Roberts,..

"Gunner's mate Paul H. Carr was in charge of the aft 5" gun mount, which had fired nearly all of its 325 stored rounds in 35 minutes before a breech explosion caused by the gun's barrel overheating. Carr was found dying at his station, begging for help loading the last round he was holding into the breech. He was awarded a Silver Star, and a guided missile frigate was later named for him.[35] The Samuel B. Roberts (FFG-58) and Copeland (FFG-25) guided missile frigates were named for the ship and its captain."

 

[cabri]

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Stand_of_the_Tin_Can_Sailors

Evans - CO - Samuel Roberts - Medal of Honor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_E._Evans

 

[JManInPhoenix]

The US destroyer navy at its finest hour :thumbsup:

 

[manimal]

fortune favors the bold! These men were heroes and deserve adulation.

 

[MongGrel]

Bumping it once because it was good.

 

[notposting]

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Stand_of_the_Tin_Can_Sailors

Evans - CO - Samuel Roberts - Medal of Honor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_E._Evans

Yep -- Book is getting here tomorrow. Had already read (again) about Ernest Evans (note, the CO of the USS Johnston).

Can't even imagine what it had to be like to be in their shoes. RIP

 

[PieIsAwesome]

So the yamato weighed more than the entire American group.

Amazing about how one of those tiny little destroyers went head to head against the Japanese capital ships and lit up their superstructures.

 

[BUTCH1]

fortune favors the bold! These men were heroes and deserve adulation.

The "fortunate" in the outcome of this battle were the 200,000 men who without the outcome of the naval battle, would have been totally fucked. The Yamoto and the other battleships, cruisers, and destroyers could have sat offshore and pounded the landing force without them being able to fight back. The ferocity of the attack convinced the IJN commander he was facing an entire task force. Church-bell-sized Balls of steel to engage heavily armored battleships and cruisers with destroyers and destroyer escorts with "5 pea-shooters and no armor. the Yamoto ALONE displaced more tonnage then ALL of her attackers COMBINED and that's not including the rest of what the IJN had at the scene. Thanks MongGrel for bumping the thread, the brave men that died that day for our benefit and those who survived are very old but still alive should NEVER be forgotten...

For a quick LOL the sailors who served on the "CVE's" nicknamed them "Combustible,Vulnerable,Expendable", they were much smaller, slower, had a single "5 at the rear for self defense. While they were quick to build vs a "fleet" carrier they were extremely hazardous to serve on.

 

[BUTCH1]

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Stand_of_the_Tin_Can_Sailors

Evans - CO - Samuel Roberts - Medal of Honor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_E._Evans

I found this naval online "library" where your allowed to borrow the Ebook, I've never heard of such a site, kind odd since the book price is a bit on the high side on Amazon, I'll join and check it out and report back, I really do want to read it..http://navy.lib.overdrive.com/B2FF01C1-FE0F-4E2A-B6C9-94CC72CAA62A/10/50/en/ContentDetails.htm?id=2F504161-88EF-4272-818A-8DE737D7BDAD#descExpand

 

[dennilfloss]

There was also the valiant efforts by destroyers HMS Ardent and Acasta against the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, though it did not save HMS Glorious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Scharnhorst#Operation_Weser.C3.BCbung

And HMS Glowworm.

http://www.maritimequest.com/daily_event_archive/2006/april/08_hms_glowworm.htm

 

[K1052]

So the yamato weighed more than the entire American group.

Amazing about how one of those tiny little destroyers went head to head against the Japanese capital ships and lit up their superstructures.

Japanese fire control was almost in the stone age compared to what was attached to the 5/38 guns on the US ships. They made it rain 5 inch shells with great accuracy.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Japanese fire control was almost in the stone age compared to what was attached to the 5/38 guns on the US ships. They made it rain 5 inch shells with great accuracy.

that still does not down play what those brave heroes accomplished!!

 

[BUTCH1]

Japanese fire control was almost in the stone age compared to what was attached to the 5/38 guns on the US ships. They made it rain 5 inch shells with great accuracy.

This is true but the only part of the Japanese ships (with the exception of the destroyers) that could be damaged by a "5 shell was the upper parts of the conning tower, where radar, sighting ect. took place, hitting the Yamato's main batteries or hull with a "5 shell was meaningless because they were protected by "17 of steel plate, same deal with the cruisers and other battleships. A "5 naval gun was mostly meant to be used against surfaced subs and merchant vessels, it was not designed to attack heavy cruisers and battleships with but that's what they had and that's what they used. The USN did have a great radar-directed fire control system though and even if a "5 shell won't sink your ship, get hit by a hundred of them and your gonna start some fires, destroy AA guns ect. Even the attacking planes lacked the necessary ordinance, some were dropping depth-charges on the decks and when everything else was gone they just came in for straight strafing runs with the wing-mounted 50 cal's, one pilot was so pissed off when he ran out of ammo he did a strafing run with a .38 pistol!, some did "dry" runs with nothing at all, just in hopes of distracting the attention away from the destroyers who eventually took an incredible pummeling.

 

[K1052]

that still does not down play what those brave heroes accomplished!!

I did not say that it did.

 

[BUTCH1]

There was also the valiant efforts by destroyers HMS Ardent and Acasta against the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, though it did not save HMS Glorious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Scharnhorst#Operation_Weser.C3.BCbung

And HMS Glowworm.

http://www.maritimequest.com/daily_event_archive/2006/april/08_hms_glowworm.htm

Quite a nice gesture by the Captain of the Hipper to stop his ship(at great peril) and rescue the survivors of the Glowworm. For some reason or other the Royal Navy was particularly bad about picking up survivors after a battle, in the battle involving Ardent, Acasta and Glorious over 800 men froze to death while the cruiser HMS Devonshire had passed within 30-50 miles of the battle but did not divert course to look for survivors. Also when they sank the Bismark only 114 survivors were picked up, the ships left the scene quickly leaving 400+ to drown in the frigid waters, reports of a Uboat in the area were discounted after the war and had one been there it surly would have tried to help Bismark by firing on the Battleships. An interesting story came from Bismark's death, a cat was rescued and nicknamed "unsinkable Sam" after he was picked up by the HMS Cossack who became that ships mascot for a few months until she was torpedoed and sank, the cat was ashore for a short while until it was the mascot of the HMS Ark Royal (who's planes had crippled Bismark's rudder and led to her destruction) which was you guessed it, torpedoed and sank, the HMS lightning and HMS Legion both ferried Sam to Gibraltar to life out his live in a sailors home until 1955. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the "Lightning" or "Legion" the former, you guessed it, torpedoed and sank, the Legion sustained battle damage and was towed back and while in dock waiting for repair, you guessed it, was bombed, hitting the magazine which caused her to rupture and sink. I'd dare say that was a cursed kitty!..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsinkable_Sam

 

[K1052]

This is true but the only part of the Japanese ships (with the exception of the destroyers) that could be damaged by a "5 shell was the upper parts of the conning tower, where radar, sighting ect. took place, hitting the Yamato's main batteries or hull with a "5 shell was meaningless because they were protected by "17 of steel plate, same deal with the cruisers and other battleships. A "5 naval gun was mostly meant to be used against surfaced subs and merchant vessels, it was not designed to attack heavy cruisers and battleships with but that's what they had and that's what they used. The USN did have a great radar-directed fire control system though and even if a "5 shell won't sink your ship, get hit by a hundred of them and your gonna start some fires, destroy AA guns ect. Even the attacking planes lacked the necessary ordinance, some were dropping depth-charges on the decks and when everything else was gone they just came in for straight strafing runs with the wing-mounted 50 cal's, one pilot was so pissed off when he ran out of ammo he did a strafing run with a .38 pistol!, some did "dry" runs with nothing at all, just in hopes of distracting the attention away from the destroyers who eventually took an incredible pummeling.

At a minimum they distracted the bigger ships long enough to get in close for torpedo runs and bought the CVEs more time. The Japanese were quite surprised by the volume and accuracy the of fire the destroyers laid on them, enough that some mistook them for heavier ships. While smaller mad ballistically disadvantaged the destroyers did arguably have superior technology that made their sacrifice worthwhile.

 

[BUTCH1]

At a minimum they distracted the bigger ships long enough to get in close for torpedo runs and bought the CVEs more time. The Japanese were quite surprised by the volume and accuracy the of fire the destroyers laid on them, enough that some mistook them for heavier ships. While smaller mad ballistically disadvantaged the destroyers did arguably have superior technology that made their sacrifice worthwhile.

Yea, no doubt, if the landing forces had to endure the kind of shelling battleships can dish out it would have been an ugly scene indeed, those 1,000 that died that day probably saved 10-20X that had they not managed to turn the rest of the Japanese fleet away.

 

[slag]

The "fortunate" in the outcome of this battle were the 200,000 men who without the outcome of the naval battle, would have been totally fucked. The Yamoto and the other battleships, cruisers, and destroyers could have sat offshore and pounded the landing force without them being able to fight back. The ferocity of the attack convinced the IJN commander he was facing an entire task force. Church-bell-sized Balls of steel to engage heavily armored battleships and cruisers with destroyers and destroyer escorts with "5 pea-shooters and no armor. the Yamoto ALONE displaced more tonnage then ALL of her attackers COMBINED and that's not including the rest of what the IJN had at the scene. Thanks MongGrel for bumping the thread, the brave men that died that day for our benefit and those who survived are very old but still alive should NEVER be forgotten...

For a quick LOL the sailors who served on the "CVE's" nicknamed them "Combustible,Vulnerable,Expendable", they were much smaller, slower, had a single "5 at the rear for self defense. While they were quick to build vs a "fleet" carrier they were extremely hazardous to serve on.

I don't think Halsey's task force was that far away - A day, perhaps 2 (october 23rd-25th) He would have been back within striking range in 24-36 hours tops and would have annihilated the remaining japanese fleet that was in the Leyte gulf area had they chosen to remain there and shell the American troops before they even had visual confirmation. In fact, he did manage to sink 4 Japanese carriers after he got back. Halsey's "blunder", while unfortunate, was not a turning point in the war, nor did it make that big of a difference even if the remaining American force had turned and ran. There would have been some casualties, sure, but nowhere close to 200,000 and all of the ships would have been destroyed instead of letting many of them slip back to Japan.

 

[BUTCH1]

I don't think Halsey's task force was that far away - A day, perhaps 2 (october 23rd-25th) He would have been back within striking range in 24-36 hours tops and would have annihilated the remaining japanese fleet that was in the Leyte gulf area had they chosen to remain there and shell the American troops before they even had visual confirmation. In fact, he did manage to sink 4 Japanese carriers after he got back. Halsey's "blunder", while unfortunate, was not a turning point in the war, nor did it make that big of a difference even if the remaining American force had turned and ran. There would have been some casualties, sure, but nowhere close to 200,000 and all of the ships would have been destroyed instead of letting many of them slip back to Japan.

Yea, I'm not sure how long it would have taken for Halsey to get back, the 4 "Iowa" class battleships would have laid waste to them alone and then he had carriers as well. Tough to tell what the casualty's would have been but I don't think these were any places to hide, all they could have done was dig in low and hope, between the Yamoto, the other 4 Battleships and cruisers (and destroyers) I'm guessing the toll would have been rather high.

 

[cabri]

I found this naval online "library" where your allowed to borrow the Ebook, I've never heard of such a site, kind odd since the book price is a bit on the high side on Amazon, I'll join and check it out and report back, I really do want to read it..http://navy.lib.overdrive.com/B2FF0...504161-88EF-4272-818A-8DE737D7BDAD#descExpand

Check your local library,; they may have it or are able to request it via inter-library exchange service

 

[cabri]

I don't think Halsey's task force was that far away - A day, perhaps 2 (october 23rd-25th) He would have been back within striking range in 24-36 hours tops and would have annihilated the remaining japanese fleet that was in the Leyte gulf area had they chosen to remain there and shell the American troops before they even had visual confirmation. In fact, he did manage to sink 4 Japanese carriers after he got back. Halsey's "blunder", while unfortunate, was not a turning point in the war, nor did it make that big of a difference even if the remaining American force had turned and ran. There would have been some casualties, sure, but nowhere close to 200,000 and all of the ships would have been destroyed instead of letting many of them slip back to Japan.

Yea, I'm not sure how long it would have taken for Halsey to get back, the 4 "Iowa" class battleships would have laid waste to them alone and then he had carriers as well. Tough to tell what the casualty's would have been but I don't think these were any places to hide, all they could have done was dig in low and hope, between the Yamoto, the other 4 Battleships and cruisers (and destroyers) I'm guessing the toll would have been rather high.

Hasley's heavy forces were on the other side of the Philippines; where he believed the Japanese naval forces were coming through.
Carrier planes could have been overhead in 24 hours if he turned around the carriers.
However, 24 hours of continual shelling by the Japanese would have decimated the ground troops.

No one really knows how the Iowa class would have stacked up against the pair of Yamoto class monsters