The Battle of Swat

[The Green Bean]

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/co...-men-in-mingora--bi-13

I hope this is the beginning of the end of the Taliban in Pakistan. Having said that a Pakhtun laborer that had been working near my house said a few days ago that the Taliban had reached his place and he was going back to help his parents move to "someplace safer." Not exactly sure where but I can only hope his parents are fleeing from the fighting and not the Taliban. Those people are brutal. Not as brutal as JOS claims to be but brutal nonetheless. I wouldn't live under them alive!

The Taliban have given us enough trouble. But I think their brief reign over areas of the NWFP was necessary to convince moderate pakhtuns that they are indeed brutal rebels fighting in the name of Islam for Money and power.

I hope the terror of the Taliban is over before the next winter and things return to normal and we are back on the road to peace and prosperity.

Civilians have be ordered to leave immediately. I hope tanks roll into the city soon to kill every last taliban.

MINGORA: Curfew in Swat has been relaxed from 01:30 p.m. till 07:00 p.m. , the District Coordination Officer (DCO) Swat said on Tuesday.

Residents of Mingora should immediately leave the city, he said.

 

[Lemon law]

The problem the Pakistani military has is that they have brief periods of heavy fighting, they may accomplish something, but then they don't stick around to build anything that lasts. And as soon as the army leaves, the Taliban moves right back in.

Worse yet the fighting hurts the civilians but does not really touch the Taliban.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/67501.html

Sadly as brutal as the Taliban is, an out of control army can be even more damaging. If Pakistan wants to win the fight, they have to maintain a presence as the legitimate government,

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Green Bean, what is the mood amongst Pakistanis like right now? Do they want the military to eradicate the Taliban? Do you think the government will really do it?

 

[cubeless]

i feel sorry for ya, bean, for 2 things... one is that u get to live in this shit; two is that you think it will be resolved in a short period of time...

i guess hope is good, but what makes the people rise up (if they actually want to) is that they start seeing the reality of the situation and that there's no hope left... that 's when people finally do something...

but from your previous posts it seems you don't want westerners to come in to assist... do you really think that your govt and army, based on their history, are going to 'fix' this?

 

[Thump553]

Keep us posted Green Bean. I, for one, certainly appreciate a viewpoint from the inside.

I certainly hope you are right. The news channels here are much less optimistic. Among other things they are reporting the Taliban controls 40-50% of Pakistan now (in area, not population).

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: cubeless
i feel sorry for ya, bean, for 2 things... one is that u get to live in this shit; two is that you think it will be resolved in a short period of time...

i guess hope is good, but what makes the people rise up (if they actually want to) is that they start seeing the reality of the situation and that there's no hope left... that 's when people finally do something...

but from your previous posts it seems you don't want westerners to come in to assist... do you really think that your govt and army, based on their history, are going to 'fix' this?

Are you suggesting there is some other solution?

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cubeless
i feel sorry for ya, bean, for 2 things... one is that u get to live in this shit; two is that you think it will be resolved in a short period of time...

i guess hope is good, but what makes the people rise up (if they actually want to) is that they start seeing the reality of the situation and that there's no hope left... that 's when people finally do something...

but from your previous posts it seems you don't want westerners to come in to assist... do you really think that your govt and army, based on their history, are going to 'fix' this?

Are you suggesting there is some other solution?

let's see... they should all look inside themselves and stop hating themselves and live in today...

oh, wait i'm cubeless and you are moonbeam - i meant the west should clone rob'o'sheffield to go kill everyone...

there's no answer to this that is nice... it's basically ww3... if the west wants to stop 'militant' islam, it's going to have to make war on countries where it exists. when that happens it will become war on islam since there will be collateral damage (and the locals seem to like the taliban bettter than us in their hearts)... it all escalates from there... history seems, in my reading at least, pretty clear that there's no political solution to this...

as i have mentioned before, maybe this is the war to complete the cycle and end the recession...

it all sucks... but it's here and now and it's a very basic civilisation vs. civilisation thing to me... you have to look at the stated goal of the political system - the taliban will just keep going and imposing it's rule until all are under it... if you deem it an invalid system then you end up in war...

the analogy i've used before is the cop going to a domestic dispute... they want the cop to do something right until the cop intervenes and then they all jump on the cop... it's a no win...

and at the end of the day, the usa is the cop now...

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Thump553
Keep us posted Green Bean. I, for one, certainly appreciate a viewpoint from the inside.

I certainly hope you are right. The news channels here are much less optimistic. Among other things they are reporting the Taliban controls 40-50% of Pakistan now (in area, not population).

LOL @ 40-50% of Pakistan's area! I can truly say that's the American media brainwashing it's public. The fact is that even though the Taliban were present in Swat, the government was policing the streets of Swat. The Taliban were only to carry out judicial matters in consultation by a Qazi (Muslim judge) appointed by a council. They were to subsequently disarm. In the mean time they were in the hills of Swat and then decided to venture in Buner and Dir to try and impose their influence on those areas. The government then decided to take action against the Taliban venturing there. In revenge the Taliban threatened to void their pact where they would disarm if their version of the judicial was imposed in Swat and some surrounding areas. But when the government realized that it's not going to work and the Taliban will never disarm. If they were even slightly serious they would never have invaded into Dir and Buner. The Taliban announced that the pact was void and moved captured some government buildings in Swat. An operation is underway against them. Today about 64 militants were killed in Swat and Buner. Dir has been reported to have been cleared of militants.

40%-50% of the Pakistan area is bonkers. The NWFP is less than half the size of that area. And the Taliban hardly have their influence over one district. The Bajaur area that had been problematic near the border has been reportedly cleared. The Taliban are despised in Punjab and Sindh. Balochistan has an insurgency of it's own which has calmed down to the level of non-existence since Musharraf was overthrown. And there is noway you can stop the Taliban moving from city to city can you?

And the main supporters of the Taliban: their ethnic brothers; the pakhtuns are going tired of the Taliban and have realized that instead of justice, they bring oppression. Instead of Islam they bring barbaric tribal laws.

Do you not think that even if 10% of the area of Pakistan was under Taliban control; the world panic level would be on red alert? We have more than 150 nukes and I would guess every 10% of land has its fair share.

Having said that. It's not going to be an easy war. It will be won in the cities by the people and not by the army in Swat or Buner. I think the Taliban are only leading themselves to a defeat. Pakistan is not Afghanistan after the Soviets left!

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Green Bean, what is the mood amongst Pakistanis like right now? Do they want the military to eradicate the Taliban? Do you think the government will really do it?

The general mood is anger against the Taliban. I think the army will have to do something. They are. And sometimes I feel that the media hypes it too much. If the Taliban had any power they could've unleashed hell all over Pakistan after the peace deal collapsed. 2 days. And no support. People are happier than before that the deal didn't work. The army consumes a good chunk of our GDP. There is no reason why they shouldn't deal with all our security threats!

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cubeless
i feel sorry for ya, bean, for 2 things... one is that u get to live in this shit; two is that you think it will be resolved in a short period of time...

i guess hope is good, but what makes the people rise up (if they actually want to) is that they start seeing the reality of the situation and that there's no hope left... that 's when people finally do something...

but from your previous posts it seems you don't want westerners to come in to assist... do you really think that your govt and army, based on their history, are going to 'fix' this?

Are you suggesting there is some other solution?

let's see... they should all look inside themselves and stop hating themselves and live in today...

oh, wait i'm cubeless and you are moonbeam - i meant the west should clone rob'o'sheffield to go kill everyone...

there's no answer to this that is nice... it's basically ww3... if the west wants to stop 'militant' islam, it's going to have to make war on countries where it exists. when that happens it will become war on islam since there will be collateral damage (and the locals seem to like the taliban bettter than us in their hearts)... it all escalates from there... history seems, in my reading at least, pretty clear that there's no political solution to this...

as i have mentioned before, maybe this is the war to complete the cycle and end the recession...

it all sucks... but it's here and now and it's a very basic civilisation vs. civilisation thing to me... you have to look at the stated goal of the political system - the taliban will just keep going and imposing it's rule until all are under it... if you deem it an invalid system then you end up in war...

the analogy i've used before is the cop going to a domestic dispute... they want the cop to do something right until the cop intervenes and then they all jump on the cop... it's a no win...

and at the end of the day, the usa is the cop now...

I disagree. The Taliban is a bigger threat to us than it is to you. The Taliban is just a militant group who say they are figthing for Islam. They have less than 1% support in the muslim world.

Having said that in the long term the Muslim world has to devise a strategy to eliminate the Israeli threat for good. Hopefully soon when we're done with this.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: cubeless
i feel sorry for ya, bean, for 2 things... one is that u get to live in this shit; two is that you think it will be resolved in a short period of time...

i guess hope is good, but what makes the people rise up (if they actually want to) is that they start seeing the reality of the situation and that there's no hope left... that 's when people finally do something...

but from your previous posts it seems you don't want westerners to come in to assist... do you really think that your govt and army, based on their history, are going to 'fix' this?

Pakistan's taliban policy is working better than yours in Afghanistan. Lessee how many civilians did you kill do? More than 100+ ... To bad you don't care about what the Afghans think about your operation. That only breeds more Taliban.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cubeless
i feel sorry for ya, bean, for 2 things... one is that u get to live in this shit; two is that you think it will be resolved in a short period of time...

i guess hope is good, but what makes the people rise up (if they actually want to) is that they start seeing the reality of the situation and that there's no hope left... that 's when people finally do something...

but from your previous posts it seems you don't want westerners to come in to assist... do you really think that your govt and army, based on their history, are going to 'fix' this?

Are you suggesting there is some other solution?

let's see... they should all look inside themselves and stop hating themselves and live in today...

oh, wait i'm cubeless and you are moonbeam - i meant the west should clone rob'o'sheffield to go kill everyone...

there's no answer to this that is nice... it's basically ww3... if the west wants to stop 'militant' islam, it's going to have to make war on countries where it exists. when that happens it will become war on islam since there will be collateral damage (and the locals seem to like the taliban bettter than us in their hearts)... it all escalates from there... history seems, in my reading at least, pretty clear that there's no political solution to this...

as i have mentioned before, maybe this is the war to complete the cycle and end the recession...

it all sucks... but it's here and now and it's a very basic civilisation vs. civilisation thing to me... you have to look at the stated goal of the political system - the taliban will just keep going and imposing it's rule until all are under it... if you deem it an invalid system then you end up in war...

the analogy i've used before is the cop going to a domestic dispute... they want the cop to do something right until the cop intervenes and then they all jump on the cop... it's a no win...

and at the end of the day, the usa is the cop now...

I disagree. The Taliban is a bigger threat to us than it is to you. The Taliban is just a militant group who say they are figthing for Islam. They have less than 1% support in the muslim world.

Having said that in the long term the Muslim world has to devise a strategy to eliminate the Israeli threat for good. Hopefully soon when we're done with this.

Destroy an evil then replace it. Sounds logical.

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cubeless
i feel sorry for ya, bean, for 2 things... one is that u get to live in this shit; two is that you think it will be resolved in a short period of time...

i guess hope is good, but what makes the people rise up (if they actually want to) is that they start seeing the reality of the situation and that there's no hope left... that 's when people finally do something...

but from your previous posts it seems you don't want westerners to come in to assist... do you really think that your govt and army, based on their history, are going to 'fix' this?

Are you suggesting there is some other solution?

let's see... they should all look inside themselves and stop hating themselves and live in today...

oh, wait i'm cubeless and you are moonbeam - i meant the west should clone rob'o'sheffield to go kill everyone...

there's no answer to this that is nice... it's basically ww3... if the west wants to stop 'militant' islam, it's going to have to make war on countries where it exists. when that happens it will become war on islam since there will be collateral damage (and the locals seem to like the taliban bettter than us in their hearts)... it all escalates from there... history seems, in my reading at least, pretty clear that there's no political solution to this...

as i have mentioned before, maybe this is the war to complete the cycle and end the recession...

it all sucks... but it's here and now and it's a very basic civilisation vs. civilisation thing to me... you have to look at the stated goal of the political system - the taliban will just keep going and imposing it's rule until all are under it... if you deem it an invalid system then you end up in war...

the analogy i've used before is the cop going to a domestic dispute... they want the cop to do something right until the cop intervenes and then they all jump on the cop... it's a no win...

and at the end of the day, the usa is the cop now...

I disagree. The Taliban is a bigger threat to us than it is to you. The Taliban is just a militant group who say they are figthing for Islam. They have less than 1% support in the muslim world.

Having said that in the long term the Muslim world has to devise a strategy to eliminate the Israeli threat for good. Hopefully soon when we're done with this.

Destroy an evil then replace it. Sounds logical.

way to lose sympathy, bean... and just what has israel done to pakistan or afganistan? so you believe in a muslim world theocracy, just not the taliban or israeli flavors (and i guess not the western or christian versions)?

now i hope you burn... you are no better than the taliban... have a nice life in the stone age...

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: cubeless

way to lose sympathy, bean... and just what has israel done to pakistan or afganistan? so you believe in a muslim world theocracy, just not the taliban or israeli flavors (and i guess not the western or christian versions)?

now i hope you burn... you are no better than the taliban... have a nice life in the stone age...

You do know that you wishing I burn is on the same lines as I calling for the destruction of the evil Israeli defense force that oppresses Palestinians? And I don't want your sympathy. We can do just fine without your interference in the region. Everything was fine before your illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I believe the Muslim world has to unite to counter the threat to them from the west and east. The west has been responsible for 2 illegal wars in the last 10 years and occupies a large portion of our land. A muslim philosohper said "Oppressors live short lives." We have seen that throughout history. And after 9/11 the USA has become oppressive against us. Maybe you don't notice it. The common man in Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Saudi Arabia does. I'm sure people from other muslim countries feel the same. If the Egyptian president were overthrown and true democracy came there; there would be a revolution. We don't oppose modernization. We oppose westernization. We have a lot to learn from the West. But their backward culture is not one of them. I also think that our leadership have been polishing Washington's shoes for too long. That's not the people want. The people want transparency and self-sufficiency.

I just hope it's not long before the Muslim Nation is freed from the second phase of colonization. I'm a muslim first and only then a Pakistani.

And when you ask what Israel has done:

In 1998 they had plans of bombing are nuclear test site from India. They have now been saying that the biggest threat to Israel is not Iran but Pakistan. The MOSSAD is said to have been funding the Balochistan insurgency along with the Indian intelligence agencies. And as I said; it has killed to many of our muslim brothers to sit idle and not do nothing. If there was a 9/11 10x the scale of the American version in London; would you or would you not declare war on the state responsible? This is 100x worse.

Besides; Israeli is an illegal country. The IDF occupies Palestine. That's what my country's legal standpoint is too. And 99% of Pakistanis would jump for joy if Palestine had its rightful rulers back.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: cubeless

way to lose sympathy, bean... and just what has israel done to pakistan or afganistan? so you believe in a muslim world theocracy, just not the taliban or israeli flavors (and i guess not the western or christian versions)?

now i hope you burn... you are no better than the taliban... have a nice life in the stone age...

You do know that you wishing I burn is on the same lines as I calling for the destruction of the evil Israeli defense force that oppresses Palestinians? And I don't want your sympathy. We can do just fine without your interference in the region. Everything was fine before your illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I believe the Muslim world has to unite to counter the threat to them from the west and east. The west has been responsible for 2 illegal wars in the last 10 years and occupies a large portion of our land. A muslim philosohper said "Oppressors live short lives." We have seen that throughout history. And after 9/11 the USA has become oppressive against us. Maybe you don't notice it. The common man in Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Saudi Arabia does. I'm sure people from other muslim countries feel the same. If the Egyptian president were overthrown and true democracy came there; there would be a revolution. We don't oppose modernization. We oppose westernization. We have a lot to learn from the West. But their backward culture is not one of them. I also think that our leadership have been polishing Washington's shoes for too long. That's not the people want. The people want transparency and self-sufficiency.

I just hope it's not long before the Muslim Nation is freed from the second phase of colonization. I'm a muslim first and only then a Pakistani.

And when you ask what Israel has done:

In 1998 they had plans of bombing are nuclear test site from India. They have now been saying that the biggest threat to Israel is not Iran but Pakistan. The MOSSAD is said to have been funding the Balochistan insurgency along with the Indian intelligence agencies. And as I said; it has killed to many of our muslim brothers to sit idle and not do nothing. If there was a 9/11 10x the scale of the American version in London; would you or would you not declare war on the state responsible? This is 100x worse.

Besides; Israeli is an illegal country. The IDF occupies Palestine. That's what my country's legal standpoint is too. And 99% of Pakistanis would jump for joy if Palestine had its rightful rulers back.

Everything was fine in the ME before our wars? Our backwards culture? Bwahahahaha. You're delusional dude.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: cubeless

way to lose sympathy, bean... and just what has israel done to pakistan or afganistan? so you believe in a muslim world theocracy, just not the taliban or israeli flavors (and i guess not the western or christian versions)?

now i hope you burn... you are no better than the taliban... have a nice life in the stone age...

You do know that you wishing I burn is on the same lines as I calling for the destruction of the evil Israeli defense force that oppresses Palestinians? And I don't want your sympathy. We can do just fine without your interference in the region. Everything was fine before your illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I believe the Muslim world has to unite to counter the threat to them from the west and east. The west has been responsible for 2 illegal wars in the last 10 years and occupies a large portion of our land. A muslim philosohper said "Oppressors live short lives." We have seen that throughout history. And after 9/11 the USA has become oppressive against us. Maybe you don't notice it. The common man in Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Saudi Arabia does. I'm sure people from other muslim countries feel the same. If the Egyptian president were overthrown and true democracy came there; there would be a revolution. We don't oppose modernization. We oppose westernization. We have a lot to learn from the West. But their backward culture is not one of them. I also think that our leadership have been polishing Washington's shoes for too long. That's not the people want. The people want transparency and self-sufficiency.

I just hope it's not long before the Muslim Nation is freed from the second phase of colonization. I'm a muslim first and only then a Pakistani.

And when you ask what Israel has done:

In 1998 they had plans of bombing are nuclear test site from India. They have now been saying that the biggest threat to Israel is not Iran but Pakistan. The MOSSAD is said to have been funding the Balochistan insurgency along with the Indian intelligence agencies. And as I said; it has killed to many of our muslim brothers to sit idle and not do nothing. If there was a 9/11 10x the scale of the American version in London; would you or would you not declare war on the state responsible? This is 100x worse.

Besides; Israeli is an illegal country. The IDF occupies Palestine. That's what my country's legal standpoint is too. And 99% of Pakistanis would jump for joy if Palestine had its rightful rulers back.

Please clarify the following bolded?

The west has been responsible for 2 illegal wars in the last 10 years and occupies a large portion of our land

Is the occupation that you speak of, requested by a government or forced upon the people.
By occupation; is it that the West is there or dictating how the country will live? Is there a governemnt that has asked for the asistance from the West.

w/ respect to Israel, you are making some broad statements. Can you provide linkages to back up your assertions?

In 1998 they had plans of bombing are nuclear test site from India. They have now been saying that the biggest threat to Israel is not Iran but Pakistan. The MOSSAD is said to have been funding the Balochistan insurgency along with the Indian intelligence agencies. And as I said; it has killed to many of our muslim brothers to sit idle and not do nothing.

Realize that while Israel has killed many of your Muslim brothers; they have been attacked by such same brothers multiple times witht he intent of exterminating the country.

Besides; Israeli is an illegal country. The IDF occupies Palestine. That's what my country's legal standpoint is too. And 99% of Pakistanis would jump for joy if Palestine had its rightful rulers back

Israel was granted statedhood by the UN. How does that make it an illegal country? Pakistan was a country carved out of another - what is the difference?
The Arabs within the Middle East did not want a state of Palestine(Arab) and they did much to destroy it. You still have Arabs/Muslims that want to create trouble rather than push for peace.

The only fear that Israel would have from Pakistan is the distribution of nuclear weapons/technology. That in itself, has been proven to be realistic.

We have a lot to learn from the West. But their backward culture is not one of them.

I am curious to determien what yuou feel is the backward culture. The west's culture may be different - how can you consider it to be backward. Much of your technology has come from the west.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Robor
Everything was fine in the ME before our wars? Our backwards culture? Bwahahahaha. You're delusional dude.

Culture is not something rational. From one perspective something may be backward while another would say that is modern. From my perspective Western culture is moving towards barbarism. My grounds? One example is nudism. Left wings Americans claim that nudism is modern. Anybody who says that it is, is closer to the stone age than any Pakistani. Stone age people wore less. And the further back you go in time the closer you get to nudism. It seems like in the west the further you go you get closer to the same conclusion. I would say the left in the west is indicative of where they are heading. I say Islamic culture is the top of the peak. There is no moving forward from it. We look backward because we have moved away from it because of influences from elsewhere.

If you enjoy making fun of me and ignore reality you are free to do so. AT- PN used to be so much more intellectual.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

I disagree. The Taliban is a bigger threat to us than it is to you. The Taliban is just a militant group who say they are figthing for Islam. They have less than 1% support in the muslim world.

Having said that in the long term the Muslim world has to devise a strategy to eliminate the Israeli threat for good. Hopefully soon when we're done with this.

Hopefully we devise a way to eliminate every racist like you

And what do you propose as your final solution to the "Israeli" problem?

 

[EagleKeeper]

To use your example; what is indicates is that the advancement of freedom of expression and chioce. This is opposed to religious control of views and ideals; dictated by a religious head that supposedly knows more than the followers.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Robor
Everything was fine in the ME before our wars? Our backwards culture? Bwahahahaha. You're delusional dude.

Culture is not something rational. From one perspective something may be backward while another would say that is modern. From my perspective Western culture is moving towards barbarism. My grounds? One example is nudism. Left wings Americans claim that nudism is modern. Anybody who says that it is, is closer to the stone age than any Pakistani. Stone age people wore less. And the further back you go in time the closer you get to nudism. It seems like in the west the further you go you get closer to the same conclusion. I would say the left in the west is indicative of where they are heading. I say Islamic culture is the top of the peak. There is no moving forward from it. We look backward because we have moved away from it because of influences from elsewhere.

If you enjoy making fun of me and ignore reality you are free to do so. AT- PN used to be so much more intellectual.

I don't consider your bigoted and hateful views intellectual in any way and you obviously know very little about western culture - at least the US. FWIW, you can keep your theocratic 'utopia'. :roll:

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Is the occupation that you speak of, requested by a government or forced upon the people.
By occupation; is it that the West is there or dictating how the country will live? Is there a governemnt that has asked for the asistance from the West.

It's requested by the government to safeguard their position against the people. And yes the USA is dictating the Muslim world how they should live. They are forcing upon us democracy and threatening us with sanctions if we do not abide. That is dictation and occupying our legal and political system with something far inferior. You should not confuse the wants of the people with democracy. Majority is not an indication of right. It's a complicated debate. The people have rights which THEY should get. Freedom is one of them. Freedom has different meanings. Phone taps and surveillance certainly isn't part of freedom in Islamic terms. Neither is nudism. You can't have a society with total freedom. There has to be some law. The term "freedom" is just a misguidance. True freedom can only be found in Utopia and that's a communist/socialist concept.

w/ respect to Israel, you are making some broad statements. Can you provide linkages to back up your assertions?

I will attach some quotations at the end of my post as to avoid confusion.

Realize that while Israel has killed many of your Muslim brothers; they have been attacked by such same brothers multiple times witht he intent of exterminating the country.

That's something we regret. But two wrongs don't make one right.

Israel was granted statedhood by the UN. How does that make it an illegal country? Pakistan was a country carved out of another - what is the difference?
The Arabs within the Middle East did not want a state of Palestine(Arab) and they did much to destroy it. You still have Arabs/Muslims that want to create trouble rather than push for peace.

Look at the British mandate. Besides the jews are of German origin. The war is over. They should go back.

The only fear that Israel would have from Pakistan is the distribution of nuclear weapons/technology. That i

I am curious to determien what yuou feel is the backward culture. The west's culture may be different - how can you consider it to be backward. Much of your technology has come from the west.

Please read my other post.

Israel has a hand in Pakistan?s events: Mottaki

ISNA - Tehran
Service: Foreign Policy


TEHRAN (ISNA)-Iran?s Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki emphasized Israel has a hand in Pakistan?s events.

Some US army officials have commented on the collapse of Pakistan and in fact the warning could be considered as a hidden signal towards those who seek this objective, he told his audience of university students on Monday.

Describing the wrong move of some powers regarding Pakistan issues similar to what happened in Afghanistan, he said Tehran is trying to make them aware about their mistakes because it considers the issue a regional crisis whose resolution lies within the region.

Referring to the triple meetings of Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan foreign ministers and the upcoming summit of presidents, he said they would set a roadmap to employ trilateral potentialities or other parties to gain the global support for the issue.

Tehran believes it should aid Pakistan?s stability and the two sides have made agreements that would help boost Iran?s eastern and central security, he noted.

Meanwhile, over ties with US the chief of Iran?s diplomacy said ?Iran-US relations in a diplomatic and political sense is not on the agenda but there are different issues that influence the two countries and regarding such things the viewpoints and opinions are presented, the differences are illustrated and sometimes there are common interpretations as well.?

Tehran monitors US behavior towards Iran, West of Asia and the Middle East but it does not mean ?that we have defined a strategy for eternal antagonism between the two countries.?

?Iran respectfully and precisely monitors the arguments raised by Obama regarding change, if there is an attempt in Washington for change of tune and vocabulary we will welcome it.?

The increase of awareness and failure of US policies indicates that change is not an option but a must for the US, Mottaki said and added ?Obama acts as if he has perceived the message of necessity of change.?

Regarding ties with Cairo he said Egypt is a very important country in the Middle East and the world of Islam, however, governments? policies may have agreements and disagreements towards one another.

?We consider Egypt?s stances in regard with certain issues to be advanced but in other cases we have serious criticisms,? he continued ?our attitude in this regard is realistic and we consider Egypt?s capacities as an opportunity for the region.?

Tehran criticized Cairo?s stances when Israel attacked Lebanon and later Egypt rectified its stances, also there are differences regarding Gaza issue and Tehran tries to get more cooperation of Egypt with Palestinians because of Cairo?s influence, he explained.

There is no such a topic in Tehran?s agenda as resuming Iran-Egypt ties, Mottaki asserted ?but regional issues are important and we pay attention to Egypt?s position.?

http://www.isna.ir/ISNA/NewsVi...spx?ID=N...1587&Lang=E

q[Pak, Afghan Biggest Threat For Israel: Israeli F.M.
4/23/2009 5:39 AM ET

(RTTNews) - The threat perception of Iran's nuclear program to Israel has been relegated to the second position with Pakistan and Afghanistan being identified as the biggest threat to the Jewish nation, according to the new Israeli foreign minister.

In his first interview to a Russian daily after taking charge, Israel's hardliner Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has said that since he began warning against the nuclear threat from Iran, nuclear threats have become more prevalent. However, he said, a more serious problem has developed in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

With an unstable nuclear-armed Pakistan faced with a potential Taliban takeover [/quote]


http://www.rttnews.com/Article....aspx?Id=921253&SMap=1

I think that's just a pretext for more anti Pakistani activities.

?The terrorist attacks in Mumbai will be used by Zionist Jews as justification for a US invasion of Pakistan, yet another ?enemy? of Israel??The Mumbai operation was too sophisticated for the alleged Deccan Mujahideen to carry out, which, according to FBI, ?e-mailed news organizations on Thursday claiming it had carried out the attacks,? - Brother Nathanael Kapner, a born Jew, who has converted to Christianity.

?The NWFP belongs to India and Punjab is on the way,? - India?s prime minister Indira Gandhi told Zionist Jew Secretary of States, Henry Kissinger.


How India?s successive governments with assisstance from certain foreign powers to destablize Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, and Nepal - is exposed by several writers in the book titled The India Doctrine by Munshi.

Some of India?s founding fathers, such as, Mahtama Gandhi, Nehru, Krishna Menon, etc. were against Europe?s imposition of its ?Jewish Problem? upon Palestinians. However, with the passage of time the Congress Party was hijacked by extremist Hindu groups and slowly Indian society was turned into a modern-day Shivaji fighting against ?Islamophobia? - as James Laine wrote in his book Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India. And the Hindu extremists could not have found better friends than amongst the anti-Muslim Zionists.

On September 10, 2008 - Israel Occupation Force (IOF) General Avi Mizrahi visted India. He met India?a Army, Naval and Air Force top officials in New Delhi. He also visited Akhnur military base in the Indian occupied Jammu & Kashmir valley and addressed a group of Indian military officers on how to fight the local ?resistance? by ?Israeli-style? - that?s mass killing of youth and smashing skulls of babies. During a meeting both Gen. Mizrahi and Indian Army Chief, Gen. Deepak Kapoor agreed on military cooperation between IOF and Indian Army to fight various freedom movements in India. It was Mizrahi?s second visit to India. Earlier he visited Jammu & Kashmir in February 2007 along with Major General Moshe Kaplinsky and a team of IOF officers.

The atheist leaders of World Zionist movement covertly took Hebrew religious words (Israel, Semites, etc.) to fool the world and their fellow Jews. When David Ben Gurion created Mossad in 1949 - he chose its motto from Jewish Bible (Proverbs 24:6): ?For by wise counsel thou shalt wage thy war? - which has recently been changed for a less aggressive quote from Proverbs 11:14 - ?Where there is no Guidance, the people fall, but in abundance of counselers, there is victory?.

Mossad has long history of its terrorist operations in the Indian sub-continent. For example, on January 12, 2001 - Indian intelligence (RAW)officers detained 11 foreigners dressed like Islamic preachers in Calcutta who were about to board a Dhakka-bound Bangladesh Biman flight. The Bangladesh government refused to acknowledge them as Islamic preachers and issue visas. Later, they were released under Israeli pressure according to one of the arresting officers. According to Indian intelligence analyst, Ashok Debbarma: ?It?s not unlikely for Mossad to recruit 11 Afghans in Iran and grant them Israeli citizen to penetrate a network such as Bin Laden?s. They would begin infiltrating them into an Islamic radical group in an unlikely place, like Bangladesh?.

Not only Mossad has been given a free hand by several Indian state authorites - Israel has become the second largest arms supplier to India after Russia. In 2008 - India?s defence minister Pranab Mukherjee told the law-makers that New Delhi had awarded US$2.76 billion military contracts to Israel during 2002-2005 alone.

Recent tragedies, both in India and Pakistan (Mumbai carnage, Islamabad Marriot bombing, attack on Sri Lankan Cricket Team and Police training centre in Lahore) - bore all the hallmarks of Mossad ?false flag? oprations being blamed on Pakistan and Islamist groups.

On the international arena Mossad?s record as world?s most deadly killing machine is hardly reported in the Jewish-controlled western mass-media. For example, the 2002 bombing of Israeli owned Hotel Paradise in Mombassa, Kenya was a Mossad operation according to Israeli Hebrew daily Maariv (translated by Gilad Atzmon). Some of the other Israel?s other false flag operations include attack on USS Liberty, Lavon affair, Assassination of president John F. Kennedy, Operation Trojan (Libya), Pan Am 103 bombing, September 11 attack, Bali bombing, etc. etc.

A Pakistani daily

http://www.daily.pk/world/asia...asion-of-Pakistan.html

?Israel must act as King David did, felling the Goliath of Iran ? and then U.S. will follow suit and prevent Taliban from snatching Pakistan?s nuclear weapons.? So says MK Yaakov Katz (Ketzaleh).

As the world learns that Taliban/Al-Qaeda is nearing Pakistan?s capital Islamabad and control of Pakistan?s nuclear bombs, and as Iran nears completion of its nuclear weapons program, MK Katz says that Israel must provide an example in solving these twin threats.

Speaking on Sunday with Arutz-7?s Hebrew newsmagazine, the leader of the National Union party said he sees many parallels between the situation today and that of World War II:
Just like King David and his handful of rocks, we must not be afraid.


?Six million Jews were killed then, and today, in the State that arose on the ashes of the Holocaust, we are nearly six million as well. In addition, it was appeasement that caused the calamity then, and it is appeasement again today that is endangering us once more.

?There is one thing that we cannot allow ourselves, and certainly not our leaders, and that is to be naïve. My old friend Shlomo Baum, a War of Independence hero, used to say that under age 40, one can act naively; but to act that way after age 40 is not naivete, but downright stupidity. Both our Prime Minister and U.S. President Obama are way past age 40, and they must beware of acting stupidly. I am referring to the following:

?Pakistan?s capital city of Islamabad is in danger of being taken over by the Moslem Taliban, with Al-Qaeda playing a major role. If they get control of the nuclear weapons there, we know that they will freely bomb their enemies all over the world. They have no god, they fear no one, and they have shown their evil often in the past. Iran, too, is coming close to a nuclear weapon, and has stated its desire to see Israel wiped off the map. I call on our Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, to take action, just like King David did.

?Yes, there are many millions of them, but just like King David and his handful of rocks, we must not be afraid. He saw Goliath mocking and scorning Israel and G-d, and he saw the ministers of King Saul?s government allowing it to continue ? but with a well-aimed rock to the giant?s forehead, he put an end to the story named Goliath. Today as well, the Moslem extremists mock and scorn and threaten us ? the US believes in G-d, and they admire King David and the Psalms he wrote, and their beliefs are being mocked as well. Netanyahu must arise right now, today, this week ? the week of Independence Day ? and put an end to the Iranian threat. And then, Obama and the American people will arise as well to put an end to the Taliban threats on the world.?

Asked if he truly believes that Israel could carry out a strike against Iran without American permission, Ketzaleh said,


?Menachem Begin did it, when he bombed the nuclear reactor and put an end to Iraq?s nuclear program. And Ben-Gurion did it as well, when he stood up and declared independence, even though the Americans were not in favor. And even the pioneers who built this country worked the land even though the Americans supported the Arabs. Netanyahu must lead the way, and show the world, like David did before he became king, how this problem can be solved. It will help the US solve the Taliban problem as well. The danger is real; we must act today, not tomorrow.?

An Israeli site

http://www.israelnationalnews.com


P.S I have not read each and everyone one in detail.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
To use your example; what is indicates is that the advancement of freedom of expression and chioce. This is opposed to religious control of views and ideals; dictated by a religious head that supposedly knows more than the followers.

Exactly. You believe that all men are equal in intellect. I believe that they are not. And if God exists; and he is omnipotent and all-knowing, and hell and heaven exist it is imperative that there is a guide that should be followed. What the guide is has different interpretations. My scale of advancement is that guide. Yours is something else. Tolerance is accepting that we have different scales and that may or may not conflict. If they don't harm you you should stay out. You can use brute force but that seldom works in the long term.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

I disagree. The Taliban is a bigger threat to us than it is to you. The Taliban is just a militant group who say they are figthing for Islam. They have less than 1% support in the muslim world.

Having said that in the long term the Muslim world has to devise a strategy to eliminate the Israeli threat for good. Hopefully soon when we're done with this.

Hopefully we devise a way to eliminate every racist like you

And what do you propose as your final solution to the "Israeli" problem?

Israel is a country not a race. Zionism is a religion. I don't wish to eliminate all Israelis or jews. I just wish that Jeruselum and the cities around were under Arab Muslim control like they were before. The final solution is the IDF disarm and there be an joint army. The government should also have Muslim and Jewish ministers. The president should be an Arab Muslim. That won't be easy and will take years.

First a UN force 200,000 strong made up of Western and Muslim armies should be deployed in Palestine. Then both sides should disarm and trust each other and the UN. Next, there should be a free; and fair election and a mixed government should be formed. The army can be made over the next 30 years when old grudges are finally settled and when the Arabs are finally as rich as the Jews.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Robor

I don't consider your bigoted and hateful views intellectual in any way and you obviously know very little about western culture - at least the US. FWIW, you can keep your theocratic 'utopia'. :roll:

I hope your country actually has some tolerant and intellectual people like the claim to be. I know far more about US culture than any of you know about Islamic culture. My views are not hateful. They maybe vengeful but not hateful. I really don't care what you do in your backyard. You're the ones who are invading countries and telling the people that their practices and views are barbaric and forcing them to change.

 

[Lemon law]

Before we get too far into counting chickens before they are hatched, its time say this offensive is only two days old which is way too soon to come to any conclusions.

For what its worth, I have been on the road all day so this the first time I am able to comment today on this thread. The National public radio take a was basically that many of the fleeing refugees blamed the Pakistani government and not the Taliban. But right now, the Pakistani army seems to be taking the fight effectively to the Taliban who may of been caught by surprise.

And both the Afghan and Pakistani leaders who are now meeting with Obama, and at least Pakistan can say they are doing something. And because its now somewhat of a two front war for the Taliban, its short term good news for Nato because not as many Taliban can be allocated to the Afghan front.

In terms of the long term, its way way way too early to conclude anything because the current situation is so volatile and human attitudes are being changed.