The Audiophile Myths and delusions thread

[thesmokingman]

The irony...

A bit more searching reveals the article Gene from Audioholics authored, and which states, in a more scientific manner, that burn in effects are minimal for speakers at least. I tend to believe Audioholics - it was in a forum thread at Audioholics where the lack of audible difference between coat hangers and pricey speaker wire was demonstrated.

^^The article in the link isn't even from Gene. Gene actuallys posts later that even he wonders aloud about the writer of that link.

Not only that but the small differences of a driver "broken in" vs "unbroken in" are mostly swamped out once loaded into an enclosed system.

See: http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction

Danny Richie is a talented loudspeaker engineer, but some of his claims are "interesting", especially regarding exotic cables.

That said, there is break-in but there are a variety of factors at play. In other words there are many grey areas. And then what happens when it is assembled. Or what of the differences in break-in vs driver variances.

 

[krumme]

Go here for real sound:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

 

[moonbogg]

In other news, the rocket league sound track sounds great on the HD700's. It sucks when the match starts because that means the music stops. I am really enjoing the HD700's.
I think its funny when people say things like, "you need a 'proper' amp to drive those headphones". If you point out that your amp has plenty of volume they say, "NO NO, that's only part of it. You need a 'proper' amp that is a good match for those headphones. Buy something expensive that those cans will 'like'".
How do I know if my headphones "like" the amp they are using? Do I ask them? Should I expect an answer? What the hell should I do if they actually answer me? Call 911?

 

[Deders]

Do they come with a fitted mic that allows you to talk to them?

 

[wiyosaya]

The irony...


^^The article in the link isn't even from Gene. Gene actuallys posts later that even he wonders aloud about the writer of that link.

That said, there is break-in but there are a variety of factors at play. In other words there are many grey areas. And then what happens when it is assembled. Or what of the differences in break-in vs driver variances.

I see these kinds of argument in many places. They consist of people with real-world measurement data, and those with claims that are not backed by real-world measurements. In cases like these where it is possible to accurately measure effects with equipment designed to make those measurements, then I am much more likely to trust opinions and conclusions based on those measurements.

What I am gather from that article is that there is measurable burn in, but the grey area is that those measurements indicate that the burn-in does not result in a significantly perceptible difference in sound.

For me, what it comes down to are the conclusions that are drawn from the measurements, and from http://www.audioholics.com/loudspea...ction/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction-page-2
they are

In an electrodynamic driver featuring the usual surround-diaphragm-spider construction, driver suspension mechanical compliance plays a key roll in determining the measured value of various driver parameters. All of these parameters will shift as the mechanical compliance of the driver's suspension shifts in value. The bulk of a driver's compliance shift will occur at the time of initial burn in.
Subsequent shifts in compliance are largely temporary in nature. An example of one such mechanism contributing to such temporary shifts is that which arise from the elastic deformation of butadiene-styrene surrounds. Given sufficient time to recover, these changes tend to reverse themselves and the driver returns to its pre-stimulus state.
As the enclosure compliance in both totally enclosed boxes and vented cabinets dominates that of the driver for most practical implementations of either type enclosure currently in production, any potential changes in system amplitude response attributable to changes in driver suspension mechanical compliance tend to be minimized. Normal production unit-to-unit driver spec variances can affect final amplitude response of a system to a larger degree than that expected from normal pre- post-burn in driver suspension compliance changes.

As I read this, the differences speaker to speaker on a manufacturing line are more significant than the effects of burn-in on the speaker, which to me equates to saying that burn-in effects are insignificant.

Let me state this in another way: If you get a speaker and set it up as a left front, for instance, then a month or more later you get one more of the exact same speaker model as the first one and set it up as a right front speaker, you are more likely to hear differences in sound quality between the left and right speakers than you are to hear differences in each individual speaker due to burn-in of that individual speaker.

To anyone that comes to me and says that their speakers sound better after a period of use, I am likely to say "where are your measurements that support the differences you hear." Personally, I would not go so far as to say that my speakers sound different after a period of time without having the measurement data to support it. I am not noticing a difference in sound in the speakers I bought 6-weeks ago. I don't expect to either.

 

[wiyosaya]

In other news, the rocket league sound track sounds great on the HD700's. It sucks when the match starts because that means the music stops. I am really enjoing the HD700's.
I think its funny when people say things like, "you need a 'proper' amp to drive those headphones". If you point out that your amp has plenty of volume they say, "NO NO, that's only part of it. You need a 'proper' amp that is a good match for those headphones. Buy something expensive that those cans will 'like'".
How do I know if my headphones "like" the amp they are using? Do I ask them? Should I expect an answer? What the hell should I do if they actually answer me? Call 911?

911 is a good bet.

Amps can sound different. What is important is do they sound good enough to you.

Of course, you can always push back to them and ask them if they are willing to buy you a good amp with their money!

 

[Deders]

To anyone that comes to me and says that their speakers sound better after a period of use, I am likely to say "where are your measurements that support the differences you hear." Personally, I would not go so far as to say that my speakers sound different after a period of time without having the measurement data to support it. I am not noticing a difference in sound in the speakers I bought 6-weeks ago. I don't expect to either.

As I've mentioned before, different companies will do different levels of burn in, so saying one rule fits all isn't going to satisfy the argument.

Plus there are additional benefits. Like I mentioned previously my sub is now capable of handling a wider range of frequencies (from the same sources) without sounding muddy than it was when I first got it (I used to have to block all frequencies above 90Hz with a low pass filter, now I don't)

The hi-fi store I bought my speakers from recommended easing tweeters in gently for some time before blasting them to avoid them breaking.

 

[moonbogg]

911 is a good bet.

Amps can sound different. What is important is do they sound good enough to you.

Of course, you can always push back to them and ask them if they are willing to buy you a good amp with their money!

Now that sounds like a good idea. If sound quality is as important to them as having access to clean drinking water, which it seems to be, then I would expect them to provide me with a good amp that my cans will like. To not do this would be like letting a child die from lack of clean water, and no one with a heart would do that.

 

[thesmokingman]

The irony is that the guys who don't prescribe to certain precepts go about it just as opinionated as those they oppose. The truth tends to be somewhere in the middle...

 

[Deders]

The irony is that the guys who don't prescribe to certain precepts go about it just as opinionated as those they oppose. The truth tends to be somewhere in the middle...

Agreed

 

[krumme]

If your speakers / headphones / dac dont sound right out of the box and within the first minute get something that does. When you do you will have no doubt.

 

[Deders]

Or as the case was with my headphones, be patient and enjoy the awesome sound they will be be providing in less than 24 hours.

It's a bit inconvenient, but it's similar to having to charge a battery to its fullest on a phone/mp3 player to get the most out of it in the future. I had to charge my toothbrush for 24 hours before I could use it.

In the world of computers it is to be expected that everything should work as intended out of the box. But when you encounter a phenomenon like this and you are running a business. The time/energy spent to go put the equipment through a process that will happen naturally once the consumer starts to use it as intended will factor into each companies running costs, so they have to make a decision individually based on a number of factors including the retail price.

In my case Sony were supplying me with a product which at the time sounded better than headphones most companies would charge you more than twice the price for. if all I have to do is play music through them for 12 hours to hear its full potential, I will quite happily do that for the quality/value they were providing for this particular series.

Same goes for my speakers. Many reviewers make a point of saying they sound much closer to speakers that cost twice the price than they do ones in their actual price range. One review I read commented on how they thought the sub wasn't quite responsive enough for music, and a much bigger single speaker (instead of 2 smaller ones that push the same volume of air) would have done a better job. And I could see what he meant, but that would have cost more to make.

As disappointed as I was, I got around it by using a 90Hz low pass filter, and it did sound much much tighter. I was very pleasantly surprised later on down the line when I found the filter was no longer necessary. They are now working as the designer intended,

 

[Pacfanweb]

The "phenomenon" of speaker burn in is like one issue I see in the car business: I see this all the time, someone will come in with a new car that has about 15k on it, and say "it just started making a wind noise".

Now, the car has been making that noise the entire time....they've just been driving it long enough now that they can tune out the normal road noise and hear other, more specific noises that they did not hear at first due to having "new car fever".

Same with speakers....they get some new speakers and immediately listen to how tight the bass is and such, and a few months later they listen to some other piece of music and "think" they hear some new detail that was really there all the time.


As for the coat hangar vs speaker wire trick, Roger Russell of McIntosh was doing that back in the 70's with lamp cord. Nobody could tell the difference. When fancy speaker wire became a "thing", he said they started using it at expos simply so people would stop asking about the wire and focus on their products.
Lots of info here:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[Deders]

The "phenomenon" of speaker burn in is like one issue I see in the car business: I see this all the time, someone will come in with a new car that has about 15k on it, and say "it just started making a wind noise".

Now, the car has been making that noise the entire time....they've just been driving it long enough now that they can tune out the normal road noise and hear other, more specific noises that they did not hear at first due to having "new car fever".

Same with speakers....they get some new speakers and immediately listen to how tight the bass is and such, and a few months later they listen to some other piece of music and "think" they hear some new detail that was really there all the time.

Did you read all the comments in the thread? If you had you'd see there is more of a factual basis to the phenomenon, although it is more prominent in some hardware than others. And btw, same music tracks, same movies, same volume level. Definite difference.

As for the coat hangar vs speaker wire trick, Roger Russell of McIntosh was doing that back in the 70's with lamp cord. Nobody could tell the difference. When fancy speaker wire became a "thing", he said they started using it at expos simply so people would stop asking about the wire and focus on their products.
Lots of info here:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

I agree with this. All you need is wire that is thick enough that he signal doesn't deteriorate by the time it gets to the speakers.

 

[Loop2kil]

Imagine that, an audio thread that's full of strong opinions

 

[moonbogg]

Imagine that, an audio thread that's full of strong opinions

Nonsense! What's going on here is some of us are right, and others are wrong!