The AT World of Warcraft Thread (Where do you play) and general BS

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Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
Why do you think that? If WoW keeps making money they won't die. If all of the raiders left they'd just focus their dev'ing somewhere else. The game would probably change quite a bit, but definitely wouldn't die just because it didn't have raider support. EQ died because better stuff came along (which will happen to WoW if anything good ever comes out... which doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon).

It's kind of neat to have this discussion with you because you're a raider, and I'm not (yet) :)
 

Glayde

Senior member
Sep 30, 2004
554
0
71
Originally posted by: Anubis
it doesnt matter if they are the minority the game will die without them, just like what happened to EQ

Actually it wasn't that. There will always be a new raiding core. WoW is on such a bigger scale than EQ ever was. The thing that killed EQ, was WoW.
 

livingsacrifice

Senior member
Jul 16, 2001
442
0
0
WoW killed a lot at the time, I was into SW galaxies and I know I quit because of the stupid patch that sony messed the game up with but me and my guild both went to WoW soon after. Never played EQ though so not sure what you're referring to.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
WoW won't die without the hardcore raiders, because a significant portion of the player base is considered casual to raider. The only thing that would be different is you'd see videos with fancy techno come out much later than before ;).
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
If the raiding segment of WoW leaves it would quickly turn into a very large problem for Blizzard. Even if we say that 80% of people playing WoW don't raid(which I think it is likely closer to 50/50) those '20%' that do are the ones that facilitate the rest of the people playing to get anything done. As much as they have nerfed heroics(obnoxiously IMO) a full DS3 geared group is still going to struggle heavily to clear them in anything resembling what a casual gamer wants to partake in. Sure, you put 3 T5/T6 players and a couple under geared toons in a group and you can blow through it easily, take those raiders out of the picture and the amount of content Blizz has for 70s drops a dramatic amount.

Also- what goal is there for people to work for? Rep grinds? They are nerfed so badly compared to old world content that even a very casual player should easily hit exalted with any faction they chose in a short period of time. To compound that, for the most part you will likely only really be interested in grinding out rep for one or two factions(if you aren't raiding, you aren't likely to care about opening every craftable epic pattern, glyph and chant you can possibly get).

Another aspect is the bored epicd out toons that are willing to help the lowbies because they quite frankly have nothing else to do. I'm sure anyone that has been playing long enough has helped some random person clear out a dungeon or two(or 50 ;) ) because they didn't have anything else to work on and wanted to kill time. For some of those people, that is the only chance they get to run through instances for quite some time(my first toon 1-60 I ran through a total of 3 instances- two of them runthroughs from a rl friend).

At least once a week I bump into some random person who still remembers me helping them out as they were leveling up and how long they kept xx drop for(any I almost never remember any of them- I was just bored killing time spamming arc explosion through some thing or other ;) ). I know I am not special by any means in this respect, you take out the bored raiders and it starts to detract a lot from the game for non raiders too.

One thing I noticed about heroic PuG is that there are some people in full purple (elitist pricks) who will automatically discount your skills if they see you in blues. I had quite a few who would just drop party or make lame excuse to leave after inspecting other members. One time I had this shadow priest who cussed out our healer for a little mistake - so I promptly kick him out of the group and /ignore. Got a mage to rep him and clear the instance without any issue.

Depending on the exact circumstances I am sometimes one of those elitist pricks ;) If I have an hour to clear a heroic, I am not going to spend time with someone whose gear will not allow the instance to be cleared in that timeframe. This is nothing against that person, just the reality that I don't want to spend three hourse clearing an instance for no good reason other then certain players lack gear. Yes, gear is very clearly not the sole factor to making a toon effective, but you aren't going to break 5K dps for the group in a 5 man with a bunch of DS3 geared players no matter how well they play their toon.

I also had one instance where I was asked to come in to a heroic Seth Halls run, they were on the first boss. I came in, we dropped the boss without too much trouble and on the first pull after him wiped(tank went down FAST- and I had one of the mobs kited, he was just tanking one). It was a feral druid, looking at the combat log he had done everything properly so I asked him what his armor was at- 11K- I ported as soon as he said that :)
 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
Originally posted by: abaez
I can't get to the guild website now, but whatever the reasons, 10+ months between any new high end raid content is completely ridiculous for the amount of money that is pouring in.

Go. Outside.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: abaez
I can't get to the guild website now, but whatever the reasons, 10+ months between any new high end raid content is completely ridiculous for the amount of money that is pouring in.

Go. Outside.

i love this arguement, you do realize that even the majority of hardcore raiders dont play 8 hours a day 7 days a week

hell most of the raiders on skullcrusher play LESS then the casualls, we raid and kill stuff and then are done for the week and they stand in shat all day doing nothing
 

AntiFreze

Golden Member
Oct 23, 2007
1,459
0
0
Maybe they'll lose their "hardcore" raiders, but raiders like me will stick around. 4/6 SSC, 3/4 TK. I raid about 3 nights a week, for 2-4 hours at a time. Raids start at 10pm and can go until 2am. I wake up at 6am for work. I don't consider this crazy raiding schedule, and there are plenty of people like me who will stick around even with the nerfing.

 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
Originally posted by: Anubis
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: abaez
I can't get to the guild website now, but whatever the reasons, 10+ months between any new high end raid content is completely ridiculous for the amount of money that is pouring in.

Go. Outside.

i love this arguement, you do realize that even the majority of hardcore raiders dont play 8 hours a day 7 days a week

hell most of the raiders on skullcrusher play LESS then the casualls, we raid and kill stuff and then are done for the week and they stand in shat all day doing nothing

I disagree :)
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
I don't. He's right. Raiders log in, own the content, then some log out and some stay on. Most high end guilds can clear all of BT/Hyjal in the time it takes my piddly guild to do Kara.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Anubis
heres the post that Risen made on their site

Ok, so it's a %@!@ty title, sue me. The idea is there, and everyone knows it's true. Blizzard no longer cares about the hardcore gamers, be that the raiders or the pvpers. Well, we're done with it. It wasn't just one thing really. While we were all excited to get some tier6 for our freshly 70 alts from this new badge gear, there's a part of you that just has to feel some pain when you look back at all the time you spent farming instances...for nothing.

About 2 weeks ago it became official. No, Risen is not a dead guild. We are a group of gamers that likes being the best we can be. Well, WoW isn't about that anymore, so we are taking WoW for what it is - casual. Some of us may be around running their casual content as they release it, others of us are taking an even more casual approach and deactivating until Wrath. It's kinda funny really. Shortly after making this decision, it was announced that Karazhan would now drop TEN epic gems per clear. Wow, that's more than we get in Hyjal half the time (not to mention that can be 10 spinels, not 9 emeralds and a lionseye!). I was just about to get pissed off when I read that, then I remembered it didn't affect me anymore and a wave of calm relief passed over me.

Not having been back in Black Temple for 2 weeks was kind of nice as well. As much as I loved still trying to complete our first warglaive set (along with Nihilum, DnT, and Vodka I believe?), it's nice not having to worry about it anymore. No longer have to worry that the 200th US guild to kill Illidan has 4x the warglaives that we have (3rd US?). And looking to the future, damn am I glad we won't have to farm Sunwell like we did Naxx. Not that we have anything to show for Naxx or BT. I'm sure Sunwell will be different, right?

But ya know, forget all that. What happened to the competition? What happened to the encounters that took time to learn? In BT PTR I said this, and people told me it would be different on live. It sure didn't seem that way to me. Nihilum praised the Souls encounter and Illidan both. Neither of those seemed even remotely challenging. Well, Sunwell PTR seems even worse. Granted, we quit before some of the later encounters...but if that instance is what we've been farming BT for 8 months waiting for then well, this post speaks for itself.

Well Blizzard, it was a fun 3 years. You want a casual game, we're playing your game casually. See you again in the expac. We'll give it another try most likely, see if anything has changed. In the meanwhile, if anyone has any suggestions for us, feel free to let us know (or if any devs from other games want a top guild to help with beta-testing! ^.^)! In the meanwhile, can look us up in other games (TF2, DotA, FFXI, and more).

-Failure

This is so stupid. This is exactly why it is not a good idea to be in a hardcore raiding guild. The game will never revolve around them because they complete and grind the hell out of content far faster than the rest of the devs and the WoW community can keep up with. Naturally, this is going to make them less interested in the game. It feels more like a job and the rewards for the work are minimal to non-existent.

They say that all of their time spent farming feels like it was for nothing. My big question for them is why did they do the grind in the first place? What were they trying to achieve that they feel got stolen from them? To me, it is really simple. I play video games to have fun. That's it. My fun with the game does not involve anything regarding the other players and their goals or experiences with exception of my guild since that is my team. If I am not having fun then I don't play which might be the real reason why they are stopping. However, to me, it seems like one of their core reasons to grind raids is to fulfill some sort of superiority complex. I have no idea why else these changes would upset them since they already got to experience the content and have fun with it.

News Flash! Blizzard is not designing their game to fulfill a superiority complex! They are designing it so that their whole community can have fun and that is exactly what they are achieving. If some people want to use the game as a tool to fulfill this sort of complex then that is fine. However, never expect Blizz to cater to your whims if your plans for the game include goals which Blizz is not intending to provide. Such expectations are down right foolish. Despite Blizz's efforts to make an exciting game for all, they are still a business and no one should ever forget that when evaluating expectations. They need to focus their energies on the majority and not revolve around a minority.

The percentage of the community which will stop raiding or stop playing period is going to be very minimal and they will be forgotten in a matter of weeks because there are plenty of other guilds that will continue playing. The raiding community is not going to die.

 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Anubis
heres the post that Risen made on their site

Ok, so it's a %@!@ty title, sue me. The idea is there, and everyone knows it's true. Blizzard no longer cares about the hardcore gamers, be that the raiders or the pvpers. Well, we're done with it. It wasn't just one thing really. While we were all excited to get some tier6 for our freshly 70 alts from this new badge gear, there's a part of you that just has to feel some pain when you look back at all the time you spent farming instances...for nothing.

About 2 weeks ago it became official. No, Risen is not a dead guild. We are a group of gamers that likes being the best we can be. Well, WoW isn't about that anymore, so we are taking WoW for what it is - casual. Some of us may be around running their casual content as they release it, others of us are taking an even more casual approach and deactivating until Wrath. It's kinda funny really. Shortly after making this decision, it was announced that Karazhan would now drop TEN epic gems per clear. Wow, that's more than we get in Hyjal half the time (not to mention that can be 10 spinels, not 9 emeralds and a lionseye!). I was just about to get pissed off when I read that, then I remembered it didn't affect me anymore and a wave of calm relief passed over me.

Not having been back in Black Temple for 2 weeks was kind of nice as well. As much as I loved still trying to complete our first warglaive set (along with Nihilum, DnT, and Vodka I believe?), it's nice not having to worry about it anymore. No longer have to worry that the 200th US guild to kill Illidan has 4x the warglaives that we have (3rd US?). And looking to the future, damn am I glad we won't have to farm Sunwell like we did Naxx. Not that we have anything to show for Naxx or BT. I'm sure Sunwell will be different, right?

But ya know, forget all that. What happened to the competition? What happened to the encounters that took time to learn? In BT PTR I said this, and people told me it would be different on live. It sure didn't seem that way to me. Nihilum praised the Souls encounter and Illidan both. Neither of those seemed even remotely challenging. Well, Sunwell PTR seems even worse. Granted, we quit before some of the later encounters...but if that instance is what we've been farming BT for 8 months waiting for then well, this post speaks for itself.

Well Blizzard, it was a fun 3 years. You want a casual game, we're playing your game casually. See you again in the expac. We'll give it another try most likely, see if anything has changed. In the meanwhile, if anyone has any suggestions for us, feel free to let us know (or if any devs from other games want a top guild to help with beta-testing! ^.^)! In the meanwhile, can look us up in other games (TF2, DotA, FFXI, and more).

-Failure

This is so stupid. This is exactly why it is not a good idea to be in a hardcore raiding guild. The game will never revolve around them because they complete and grind the hell out of content far faster than the rest of the devs and the WoW community can keep up with. Naturally, this is going to make them less interested in the game. It feels more like a job and the rewards for the work are minimal to non-existent.

They say that all of their time spent farming feels like it was for nothing. My big question for them is why did they do the grind in the first place? What were they trying to achieve that they feel got stolen from them? To me, it is really simple. I play video games to have fun. That's it. If I am not having fun then I don't play which might be the real reason why they are stopping. However, to me, it seems like one of their core reasons to grind raids is to fulfill some sort of superiority complex. I have no idea why else these changes would upset them since they already got to experience the content and have fun with it.

News Flash! Blizzard is not designing their game to fulfill a superiority complex! They are designing it so that their whole community can have fun and that is exactly what they are achieving. If some people want to use the game as a tool to fulfill this sort of complex then that is fine. However, never expect Blizz to cater to your whims if your plans for the game include goals which Blizz is not intending to provide. Such expectations are down right foolish. Despite Blizz's efforts to make an exciting game for all, they are still a business and no one should ever forget that when evaluating expectations. They need to focus their energies on the majority and not revolve around a minority.

The percentage of the community which will stop raiding or stop playing period is going to be very minimal and they will be forgotten in a matter of weeks because there are plenty of other guilds that will continue playing. The raiding community is not going to die.

:thumbsup:
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
[snip]They say that all of their time spent farming feels like it was for nothing. My big question for them is why did they do the grind in the first place?[/snip]

This is the part that really stood out to me when I first read it. How stupid do you have to be to say something like this? Does he feel the same way when expansions come out? BC made everything you did in classic WoW completely useless and obsolete. His name really suits him.
 

JAH

Member
Mar 4, 2005
165
0
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Anubis
heres the post that Risen made on their site

Ok, so it's a %@!@ty title, sue me. The idea is there, and everyone knows it's true. Blizzard no longer cares about the hardcore gamers, be that the raiders or the pvpers. Well, we're done with it. It wasn't just one thing really. While we were all excited to get some tier6 for our freshly 70 alts from this new badge gear, there's a part of you that just has to feel some pain when you look back at all the time you spent farming instances...for nothing.

About 2 weeks ago it became official. No, Risen is not a dead guild. We are a group of gamers that likes being the best we can be. Well, WoW isn't about that anymore, so we are taking WoW for what it is - casual. Some of us may be around running their casual content as they release it, others of us are taking an even more casual approach and deactivating until Wrath. It's kinda funny really. Shortly after making this decision, it was announced that Karazhan would now drop TEN epic gems per clear. Wow, that's more than we get in Hyjal half the time (not to mention that can be 10 spinels, not 9 emeralds and a lionseye!). I was just about to get pissed off when I read that, then I remembered it didn't affect me anymore and a wave of calm relief passed over me.

Not having been back in Black Temple for 2 weeks was kind of nice as well. As much as I loved still trying to complete our first warglaive set (along with Nihilum, DnT, and Vodka I believe?), it's nice not having to worry about it anymore. No longer have to worry that the 200th US guild to kill Illidan has 4x the warglaives that we have (3rd US?). And looking to the future, damn am I glad we won't have to farm Sunwell like we did Naxx. Not that we have anything to show for Naxx or BT. I'm sure Sunwell will be different, right?

But ya know, forget all that. What happened to the competition? What happened to the encounters that took time to learn? In BT PTR I said this, and people told me it would be different on live. It sure didn't seem that way to me. Nihilum praised the Souls encounter and Illidan both. Neither of those seemed even remotely challenging. Well, Sunwell PTR seems even worse. Granted, we quit before some of the later encounters...but if that instance is what we've been farming BT for 8 months waiting for then well, this post speaks for itself.

Well Blizzard, it was a fun 3 years. You want a casual game, we're playing your game casually. See you again in the expac. We'll give it another try most likely, see if anything has changed. In the meanwhile, if anyone has any suggestions for us, feel free to let us know (or if any devs from other games want a top guild to help with beta-testing! ^.^)! In the meanwhile, can look us up in other games (TF2, DotA, FFXI, and more).

-Failure

This is so stupid. This is exactly why it is not a good idea to be in a hardcore raiding guild. The game will never revolve around them because they complete and grind the hell out of content far faster than the rest of the devs and the WoW community can keep up with. Naturally, this is going to make them less interested in the game. It feels more like a job and the rewards for the work are minimal to non-existent.

They say that all of their time spent farming feels like it was for nothing. My big question for them is why did they do the grind in the first place? What were they trying to achieve that they feel got stolen from them? To me, it is really simple. I play video games to have fun. That's it. My fun with the game does not involve anything regarding the other players and their goals or experiences with exception of my guild since that is my team. If I am not having fun then I don't play which might be the real reason why they are stopping. However, to me, it seems like one of their core reasons to grind raids is to fulfill some sort of superiority complex. I have no idea why else these changes would upset them since they already got to experience the content and have fun with it.

News Flash! Blizzard is not designing their game to fulfill a superiority complex! They are designing it so that their whole community can have fun and that is exactly what they are achieving. If some people want to use the game as a tool to fulfill this sort of complex then that is fine. However, never expect Blizz to cater to your whims if your plans for the game include goals which Blizz is not intending to provide. Such expectations are down right foolish. Despite Blizz's efforts to make an exciting game for all, they are still a business and no one should ever forget that when evaluating expectations. They need to focus their energies on the majority and not revolve around a minority.

The percentage of the community which will stop raiding or stop playing period is going to be very minimal and they will be forgotten in a matter of weeks because there are plenty of other guilds that will continue playing. The raiding community is not going to die.

Well said, well said.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
I only had enough money on my banker to post 2 of the previous 4 blues on the AH. Both of them sold within 24 hours. I had them listed at a level just about the auctioneer Value point. Damn AH is still a bit of a ripoff, one of the items listed at 20g and in the end I only pocketed about 18.7g of it.


And for those reminiscing about the good ole days, I was cruising through the quest in Ungo and headed toward the volcano to do the ash quest. Each one dropped so I ended up only killing 9 elementals. The nice part is that during that spree I also collected 3 essence of fire. Back in the day when essence of ### was worthwhile, I farmed there a bit and never came within 1% of a drop rate like that.
 

livingsacrifice

Senior member
Jul 16, 2001
442
0
0
Originally posted by: lupi
I only had enough money on my banker to post 2 of the previous 4 blues on the AH. Both of them sold within 24 hours. I had them listed at a level just about the auctioneer Value point. Damn AH is still a bit of a ripoff, one of the items listed at 20g and in the end I only pocketed about 18.7g of it.


And for those reminiscing about the good ole days, I was cruising through the quest in Ungo and headed toward the volcano to do the ash quest. Each one dropped so I ended up only killing 9 elementals. The nice part is that during that spree I also collected 9 essence of fire. Back in the day when essence of ### was worthwhile, I farmed there a bit and never came within 1% of a drop rate like that.

Ya I remember that, when I came back to playing the game and saw that most enchants needed this I was kind of pissed off then I learned they sell for nearly nothing in the AH and drop easy. I still have my level 60 set from when I used to do AQ runs (feralheart).
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
You can please some of the people most of the time (Naxx), most of the people some of the time (post-2.4 casual nerfs), but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Back before BC was out, everyone complained that the raiding content was ridiculously too hard, as only 0.01% of players were able to even set foot in Naxx. Now Blizz is nerfing the raiding content and those top 0.01% are whining that they don't get exclusive high-end dungeons just for themselves. Anyone who didn't anticipate this reaction is a bafoon.
 

AntiFreze

Golden Member
Oct 23, 2007
1,459
0
0
yeah, i vote for blizz saying "we can't please everyone, so we're going to cut the 5% fat - just happens to be thats the hardcore players" Let them run off to EQ2 or something. Make raiding a bit easier (like the 2.4) so 40% gets to see all the raid content rather than just 5%.

hehe.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
You can please some of the people most of the time (Naxx), most of the people some of the time (post-2.4 casual nerfs), but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Back before BC was out, everyone complained that the raiding content was ridiculously too hard, as only 0.01% of players were able to even set foot in Naxx. Now Blizz is nerfing the raiding content and those top 0.01% are whining that they don't get exclusive high-end dungeons just for themselves. Anyone who didn't anticipate this reaction is a bafoon.

Also remember that those guilds which are currently farming BT/Hyjal get to run the Sunwell right away. While they may not remain the only ones to hit the Sunwell before the xpack, it's release alone shows me that Blizz is providing them with something huge. A brand new raid instance is nothing to laugh at regardless of the lack of attunement requirements to enter it. From what I understand, the first boss is a heavy gear check to ensure that guilds have been running Hyjal/BT a lot anyways.

Not to mention that content is something Blizz is trying to spread to the majority of the player base. That is one of their goals. It only makes sense that this change is taking place and will probably take place in a similar manner in the future. Restricting content to a handful of elitest players is not a goal of theirs.

It just blows my mind that people who have dedicated years to a game are willing to drop the whole thing just because their e-peens are not so large in comparison to other people's e-peens even though the difference in pure skill is ridiculously obvious. The whole thing is an extremely weak mind over matter justification.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
I don't see them asking for harder places, just more places to raid, which isn't like anyone else wanting more of whatever aspect of the game they like the most or want improved.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: lupi
I don't see them asking for harder places, just more places to raid, which isn't like anyone else wanting more of whatever aspect of the game they like the most or want improved.

From the Risen post, they don't like the fact that high-end guilds are practically used and abused on the PTR to test Blizzard's content and once the patch reaches live, all they do is farm the content, because nothing has changed. I could see how this would suck when you don't get to keep anything from the PTR and you spend all that time working on bosses. Although, you could say that it's a good thing since you also don't have to actually spend your own money on repairs for learning these encounters.

Anyone heard anything about there supposedly being an AoE change in 2.4? I was reading that certain moves such as Avenger's Shield will no longer break CC, but I've never seen anything about this change other than a couple fanbois raving on how it makes the game ezmode.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Aikouka
Originally posted by: lupi
I don't see them asking for harder places, just more places to raid, which isn't like anyone else wanting more of whatever aspect of the game they like the most or want improved.

From the Risen post, they don't like the fact that high-end guilds are practically used and abused on the PTR to test Blizzard's content and once the patch reaches live, all they do is farm the content, because nothing has changed.

they could eaisily NOT go on the PTR like most people and just learn stuff when it goes live, no one forces people to play on the PTR, i almost never go onto it only time i ever have is for class mechanic changes and even then all i do is run around and kill some mobs to see how the changes work

Anyone heard anything about there supposedly being an AoE change in 2.4? I was reading that certain moves such as Avenger's Shield will no longer break CC, but I've never seen anything about this change other than a couple fanbois raving on how it makes the game ezmode.


yes they are changeing this, abilites like Avengers shiled and Chain Lightning will NOT jump to a CCed target, i think multy shot will miss them asol, however things like AE, SoC, Volley will still hit them
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: Anubis
they could eaisily NOT go on the PTR like most people and just learn stuff when it goes live, no one forces people to play on the PTR, i almost never go onto it only time i ever have is for class mechanic changes and even then all i do is run around and kill some mobs to see how the changes work

That's true, but even then, Blizzard likes their content being tested and the raiding guilds like bragging rights over who gets the World First and/or Region First.



Originally posted by: Anubis
yes they are changeing this, abilites like Avengers shiled and Chain Lightning will NOT jump to a CCed target, i think multy shot will miss them asol, however things like AE, SoC, Volley will still hit them

Oo, I like the multi-shot change. I can't say how many times I had to ignore multi-shot (which is bad for MM Hunter DPS... we've got the +crit and +damage for a reason :p) because I believed a poly'd target would be hit.
 
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