The ARM race - Samsung vs Taiwanese fabs

Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
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Found a good and interesting read on Yahoo.com today. It seems that while Intel vs AMD battles are always appealing to most of us, a new battleground has been getting more and more attention by the media and users alike.

http://news.yahoo.com/taiwan-tech-industry-faces-samsung-083229426--finance.html

TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) — Taiwanese companies have long viewed tech giant Samsung as a major threat and the battle has recently appeared to tilt in favor of the South Korean rival as Taiwan's smartphone, memory chip and display panel makers suffered sagging exports.

The sales erosion has been driven by competition, some of it from South Korea, and a weak global economy but has also spawned fears on this export-reliant island of 23 million that Samsung has deliberately targeted Taiwanese firms as part of a campaign to undermine their competitiveness in markets around the world.

Until last year, HTC was a top global smartphone maker, cashing in on its status as the first company to make handsets using Google's Android operation system. Now, however, it is struggling as Samsung and Apple smartphones dominate.

Aside from smartphones, another emerging battlefield in the Taiwan-Samsung rivalry is the semiconductor industry, long a Taiwanese stronghold.

With its seemingly unlimited supply of capital, Samsung has deftly moved from making memory chips that store data to more profitable logic chips that run as the brain of computers.

It is also ramping up its expansion into the foundry business that fabricates chips, posing a direct challenge to TSMC, which provides application chips to companies such as Apple and Qualcomm Inc.

TSMC founder Morris Chang has called Samsung a "formidable rival" but says his company is well prepared to meet the challenge.

In the past year, TSMC has significantly increased its capital spending to move more aggressively into the cutting-edge technologies of 20 and 16 nanometers that can make smaller chips which run faster at lower power.

The new technologies will enable TSMC to make the application processors that will run new iPhones and iPads. Apple currently gets such chips from its smartphone and tablet rival Samsung. But analysts say that Apple's transition will be complicated, because Samsung is involved in part of the processors' design, in addition to fabricating the wafers that foundries normally handle.

"Apple has been waiting until TSMC is ready and able to catch up," said Brebeck. "They are willing to wait because they want to get away from Samsung. TSMC understands it and is clearly moving rapidly in this direction."

Apart from the new processors, TSMC has — as of now — a clear edge in its foundry business with a well-established customer base.

Nicholas Chen, an attorney who advises many Taiwanese tech firms, said global companies such as Apple may not trust Samsung as a chip supplier for fear the Korean giant could steal their designs when making its own products.

TSMC's advantage, he said, is that it is a pure foundry that does not make chips under its own brand and is known to be "proactively disciplined on protecting trade secrets."

"If somebody is committed to this in this industry, they are clearly the example," Chen said.

Aside from TSMC, another Taiwanese tech company under serious threat from Samsung is Hon Hai Precision Industry Co., also known as Foxconn, which makes gadgets for global clients, including Apple iPhones and iPads, at its massive plants on mainland China.

One of Hon Hai's problems involves its acquisition of Chimei Innolux Corp., a display panel maker. Since the deal was completed three years ago, Chimei has suffered large losses. A major factor has been its inability to compete with Samsung's substantial capital spending, and produce at a profit the energy saving Amoled advanced display panel, known for its superior picture quality.

In an apparent effort to address the problem, Hon Hai Chairman Terry Gou last year negotiated to acquire a 10 percent stake in Japan's struggling Sharp Corp., the only major competitor to Samsung in display panels.

Apple was widely believed to be behind the Hon Hai move, reflecting its eagerness to find an alternative panel supplier to Samsung for iPhones, iPads and the future iTVs.

But the Hon Hai deal has been put on hold, apparently over Sharp's refusal to involve Gou in its management, and in the meanwhile it sold 3 percent of the company to Samsung.

"Hon Hai is the biggest contract manufacturer, the most cost-efficient and successful," said Brebeck. "If you take down that giant, you hit a bunch of Taiwanese firms, and you hit Apple too."

Industrial Technology Research's Su says that Samsung has the upper hand in attracting first rate talent, a crucial element in the continuing high-tech battle.

The Korean conglomerate has aggressively hunted talent from Japan, China and Taiwan — often luring skilled staff away with higher pay — and has sent large number of Koreans to study abroad and learn about overseas markets, he said.

Su pointed to flexible panels — slated for use on watches, street lighting and a number of other applications — as the next battleground in the Samsung-Taiwan rivalry.

"Taiwanese makers can maintain their edge for least another three years, but after that it depends on how hard they can work," he said.

"The Taiwan government is trying to relax various rules to help our high-tech industries, but we are lagging behind South Korea in this area because they have made it the strategic national goal to attract and facilitate high-tech investments," he said.
 
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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Samsung has the cashflow to do just about anything it wants, and the intestinal fortitude to follow through.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
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Su pointed to flexible panels — slated for use on watches, street lighting and a number of other applications — as the next battleground in the Samsung-Taiwan rivalry.
Flexible LED/LCD or AMOLED panels? Sounds interesting. Not sure what the application for street lighting is, unless they are somehow unusually bright. But I could see billboards wrapped around light poles, displaying advertisements at every corner, and paying for the electricity to run the light, and probably making a profit besides.

If you thought the introduction of web ads on web pages were annoying, you haven't seen anything yet!

(Has anyone mentioned that to Google?)
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
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Would you consider them as a good bet to buy AMD if things get worse for them?

They could if they wanted, but if they really wanted into the desktop/server space like that then they'd buy Nvidia and Calxeda and do a full-court-press R&D effort to launch with an ARM footing IMO.

But I think they have lots of money and revenue because they are very smart with how they pursue markets and invest their money to date. And getting into AMD doesn't scream "brilliant" to me at this time.
 

Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
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just imagine them vs intel trying to out muscle each other . Top CPUs would have 24 cores by now. Oh well, just a pipe dream
 

meloz

Senior member
Jul 8, 2008
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Dumb journalism with nationalist undertone.

Like it or not, both Samsung and TSMC are in their current strong position due to major behind-the-scene support by their respective governments. So yes, nationalism is involved.

Both are also very unlike Intel. Intel hires from a global pool, both Samsung and TSMC prefer to have employees of their own nationality and race / ethnicity and only hire an 'outsider' when they absolutely cannot fill that requirement domestically.

Intel has built its foundries in many countries (wherever incentives are provided, basically), but how many foundries outside of S. Korea does Samsung have? How many foundries outside of Taiwan does TSMC have?

There is a very racist and nationalistic character to TSMC and Samsung and how they conduct their business.

And yes, Samsung will have a problem when Apple move to TSMC. How will they use up the capacity? Their own existing designs of SoC only go so far because Qualcomm. So they need a new compelling ARM design to use leading edge process (which would require even more investment, basically they would have no option but to outperform and outprice Qualcomm) or they use that capacity to produce their existing roadmap products dirt cheap and flood the market with $49-$99 smartphones and tablets.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
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Intel has built its foundries in many countries (wherever incentives are provided, basically), but how many foundries outside of S. Korea does Samsung have? How many foundries outside of Taiwan does TSMC have?

Intel has 8 fabs in the US, one in Ireland, one in Israel, and one in China.

TSMC has 11 fabs in Taiwan, one in China, one in the US, and one in Singapore.

Samsung has one fab in South Korea and one in the US.

At least according to what information I could currently find:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites
http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/manufacturing/locations.htm
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/foundry/manufacturing/overview
 
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meloz

Senior member
Jul 8, 2008
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Samsung has the cashflow to do just about anything it wants, and the intestinal fortitude to follow through.

Cash and balls is great but they need some quick thinking as well. Their existing market is going to be rapidly disappearing.

The high end is going to get stiched up by Intel's Atom (Android / linux) and Apple (ios). Samsung will not be able to keep up with Intel in manufacturing or design when new Atoms start hitting the market every 12 months. Or provide the 'exclusive' walled garden ecosystem that Apple has built.

So they aim lower and try building 'value' mid-end devices, except here Qualcomm are best positioned to dominate. Even if Samsung and Qualcomm have an equivalent SoC (a big if), ODMs would almost always prefer to buy from Qualcomm since Qualcomm do not compete in their market, they are a supplier like Intel.

Qualcomm do not need Samsung's fabs either, they already have TSMC. They would be loath to give any business to their primary rival, even if it means paying dearly for wafers at TSMC now that Apple is going to eat capacity.

So truly, what is left for Samsung? Only low-end entry level smarttoys. Samsung will not like this at all, firstly because this will be a no-margin high-volume business. They will be continually harassed by dozens of cheap Chinese toys, only distinguishing factor for Samsung might be their AMOLED. How much premium can they charge for it, and for how long?

Secondly, it will hurt their pride because they have built up in their mind that they are as good as anyone -Apple in particular- and are going to 'show them'. Not going to happen, unless they start using Intel's upcoming Atoms in their leading edge products. Which defeats the entire purpose and investment in designing in-house ARM processors / SoC and building those fabs.

Samsung have a difficult decision to make. If you ask me the decision has already been made for them by events and circumstances beyond their control, it is just a matter of how much pain they will endure before accepting the reality.
 

meloz

Senior member
Jul 8, 2008
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Intel has 8 fabs in the US, one in Ireland, one in Israel, and one in China.

TSMC has 11 fabs in Taiwan, one in China, one in the US, and one in Singapore.

Samsung has one fab in South Korea and one in the US.

At least according to what information I could currently find:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites
http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/manufacturing/locations.htm
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/foundry/manufacturing/overview

Thanks! :thumbsup:
 

2timer

Golden Member
Apr 20, 2012
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I hope Intel and Apple/TSMC put a spanking on Samsung. I really loathe Samsung and their prolific products. To me, they are the lowest common denominator in electronics manufacturers. They innovate nothing and steal from others, both in direct and non-direct fashion. The *only* thing Samsung has is shrewd business and economy of scale, which offers higher specs for lower prices on paper, and not a whole lot else. If it were up to Samsung, we'd still be using phones with number pads and JAVA interfaces.
 
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tuxberg

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Mar 18, 2013
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Like it or not, both Samsung and TSMC are in their current strong position due to major behind-the-scene support by their respective governments. So yes, nationalism is involved.

This is true, but the irony is that their government "support," is in large part due to those governments staying small and out of the way. While that may inspire nationalism of a kind, I think that is rather different than bog-standard nationalism fueled by state largess and propaganda (though admittedly S.Korea has plenty of the latter as well).
 

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
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Like it or not, both Samsung and TSMC are in their current strong position due to major behind-the-scene support by their respective governments. So yes, nationalism is involved.

Both are also very unlike Intel. Intel hires from a global pool, both Samsung and TSMC prefer to have employees of their own nationality and race / ethnicity and only hire an 'outsider' when they absolutely cannot fill that requirement domestically.

People like you should be banned from using that *R* word again. Because you don't know what it means.